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Rock Hard



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PostPosted: 09/15/20 4:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
Id use Stokes as trade bait , not sure why she was resigned. That final play in the final regular season game against Dallas summed up her ability/court awareness & potential for me . #Puzzled


Who would give up anything to trade for Stokes?


In a weak post draft year i think Stokes could have some value .


I'd do Stokes + Talbot for Dolson, but that's just me...

Dolson for Stokes. Don't want to ask for too much. We want the deal approved. Very Happy



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 09/15/20 4:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Rock Hard wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
Id use Stokes as trade bait , not sure why she was resigned. That final play in the final regular season game against Dallas summed up her ability/court awareness & potential for me . #Puzzled


Who would give up anything to trade for Stokes?


In a weak post draft year i think Stokes could have some value .


I'd do Stokes + Talbot for Dolson, but that's just me...

Dolson for Stokes. Don't want to ask for too much. We want the deal approved. Very Happy

Goodness, you really are desperate to be rid of her. Laughing Laughing



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 09/15/20 7:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lol idk about Dolson (not saying she’s worse than Stokes by any means, but idk if I like her fit for this team- defensively).

If we could snag Natasha Howard, Nneka Ogwumike, or Cheyenne Parker....I would be thrilled.
All capable of posting up, and stepping out for a 3pt shot.

Are they all UFAs?

Speaking of Parker being a New York native, a certain Breanna Stewart is from NY as well Twisted Evil #2022

Maybe we throw a lot of money at Cheyenne this offseason, and Stewart next offseason?

It will be tough to watch another season if we stand pat, but maybe Ionescu/Durr/Johannes/Allen?/Xu will make us more competitive and at least able to score better.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 09/15/20 9:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
Lol idk about Dolson (not saying she’s worse than Stokes by any means, but idk if I like her fit for this team- defensively).

If we could snag Natasha Howard, Nneka Ogwumike, or Cheyenne Parker....I would be thrilled.
All capable of posting up, and stepping out for a 3pt shot.

Are they all UFAs?

Speaking of Parker being a New York native, a certain Breanna Stewart is from NY as well Twisted Evil #2022

Maybe we throw a lot of money at Cheyenne this offseason, and Stewart next offseason?

It will be tough to watch another season if we stand pat, but maybe Ionescu/Durr/Johannes/Allen?/Xu will make us more competitive and at least able to score better.


-- Yes all those players are UFAs
-- Stewart is from upstate. Does she even relate to NYC? On the other hand, Hines-Allen grew up in Montclair, NJ as a Liberty fan. Target 2022.Wink
-- Again, next year depends on whether our coach actually tries his best to win games. If he's still using games to test theories or force people to learn new skills, then 2021 could look similar to this year.



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PostPosted: 09/15/20 9:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
- Again, next year depends on whether our coach actually tries his best to win games. If he's still using games to test theories or force people to learn new skills, then 2021 could look similar to this year.


I agree with the various questions you've raised about how Hopkins handled this season and how he might handle next season. I'd just add this. Hopkins had reason to feel entirely safe during this wubble year. But suppose the Liberty are able to play in Brooklyn in 2021. (No guarantee of that.) Suppose Ionescu is back and stays healthy. Suppose Clara and Joe Tsai authorize a huge marketing push for the team. And suppose the team stinks.

I have no inside knowledge. But here's my guess: if the Liberty stink in 2021, both Jonathan Kolb and Walt Hopkins will be vulnerable. I'm not saying that either or both will be fired--but 2022 won't be guaranteed for either. So if our coach doesn't actually try his best to win games in 2021, I say we could have a new coach--and a new GM--in 2022.

Katie Smith only got two years as head coach. And hiring Hopkins was Kolb's crucial decision.



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 09/15/20 10:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I do think Hop makes it to a third year unless there's legit controversy/drama in the locker room next year, no matter how much the team doesn't improve from 2020 (unless that in & of itself starts the drama). This year was so much closer to an extended training camp rather than a real season for the Liberty, kind of like a Year Zero. I also think highly of the 2022 Draft, so I'd be fine with him continuing to tinker around with things for like the first half of next season - especially if it'll be a 36-gamer like it was supposed to be this year - cuz getting a lottery pick in the 2022 Draft will be so pivotal to building for the future. 2022 will be the no-excuses year, whatever that'll actually mean by then (depends on the progress made in 2021).



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Last edited by Stormeo on 09/16/20 1:53 am; edited 2 times in total
J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 09/16/20 12:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think Bob and Stormeo both make good points

This season was an extended training camp and the Liberty were basically an expansion team on top of that.

A huge piece of the puzzle is how next season goes, if it is a bubble or even 3 location pod type of season the Liberty can afford another down year, even if Brooklyn is one of the pods.

but if it is a regular season and the Liberty are back in Brooklyn we need to have an exciting ticket selling year. The Liberty the last 5 or 6 years have really pushed the limits of the local fandom with Prudential center, West Chester and two painfully bad season. We don't need to be a contender but if we expect people to show up, spend their money and no fade away as another horrible season goes by we need to at least have an exciting, competitive product. That is achievable with Ionescu, Durr a lottery pick and a little luck that a couple others step up their game or decent free agents wants to be in NY.

We were so bad this year that being the last lottery team in 21 still probably gives us great odds for 22, and if we exceed expectation and make the playoffs there will still be some good options at 5 or 6.


bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 09/16/20 10:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:

-- Yes all those players are UFAs
-- Stewart is from upstate. Does she even relate to NYC? On the other hand, Hines-Allen grew up in Montclair, NJ as a Liberty fan. Target 2022.Wink
-- Again, next year depends on whether our coach actually tries his best to win games. If he's still using games to test theories or force people to learn new skills, then 2021 could look similar to this year.


Well I know she’s not exactly local NYC, but still if her family lives there it’s a greater chance to see one another more often, especially given that she plays overseas in the offseason.

I would love MHA, I love watching her play and her interviews are also lovely.

I won’t be surprised at all if 2021 roster looks very similar to what we had in 2020. But I’m hopeful for something- throwing a big contract at Cheyenne instead of keeping AZB for example, wouldn’t impact any big moves we make in 2022 because we would still have plenty of cap space (Stokes and Clarendon and Nurse will be FA that offseason).

Has any truly young team won a championship?
Look at this Wubble season- the top 3 contenders for the championship have rosters with an average age over 28.

I love the youth movement around Ionescu, but I believe we need a ‘baby/prime aged vet’ who can be another star alongside her to really compete. So surely by the 2022 offseason we are hoping to sign a star player to come play at Barclays for the 2022 season.

Is Ionescu/Durr/(Nurse)/‘21 lottery pick/‘22 lottery pick
A championship contender by 2023? I would think for sure not in 2022.

Maybe we don’t make moves this offseason and hope a star player signs with us for 2022. Stewie, Myisha fit well, Wilson doesn’t shoot 3s but I would love to have her....Hamby, Stevens, Vadeeva


root_thing



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PostPosted: 09/16/20 11:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I probably have a New Yorker's view of time and distance. 250 miles and a 4+ hour drive seem like a lot to me, but I guess many Americans view that as no big deal.

The 2003 Detroit Shock team that went from last to winning a championship were fairly young. Everybody seemed to have August-September birthdays to make this discussion more complicated. Smile Looking at the starters, Cash, Nolan, and Riley were 23 for most or all of the season. Ford was 22, and Powell was 27 for most of the season. The two bench players who logged double-digit minutes were Holland-Corn at 28, and Farris who was 26 until the championship series.

Until the coach goes all out to win games, and the roles and rotations stabilize, it's very hard to assess what we have. My general impression is that based on the variety of options there is enough talent on the perimeter to put together three good starters and a solid bench. What the team clearly lacks is good post players. That was my assessment before this season, and it remains my assessment now. How long it takes them to find two quality post starters will determine when the franchise gets good.



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PostPosted: 09/16/20 12:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
Well I know [Stewart's] not exactly local NYC, but still if her family lives there it’s a greater chance to see one another more often, especially given that she plays overseas in the offseason.

I consider her hometown to be pretty much an equal drive time to both the Liberty and Sun franchises. If someday Stewie ever wants to return to her home region (god forbid Razz ), New York better hope Connecticut can't come up with a better offer for her. Wink



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 09/16/20 1:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I would hope Stewie/management could help the fam get faster transit Wink

How could I forget about my beloved Shock! I suppose I didn’t follow the league until 2005 so there’s my excuse Razz

But yes, I agree our perimeter options are pretty solid when healthy and present. I hope Nurse 2019 is back for 2021. Excited to see what Ionescu and Durr can do together.

And our biggest need is post.
I was one who hoped and expected AZB to have a breakout season.

Sadly I don’t see Stokes, Shook or Holmes as our future championship contending post starters. I still think AZB can be last option on a starting squad. But her front court partner needs to be much better than Stokes.

Maybe Han Xu can be one of those players, but she needs to really improve the strength. Despite her height, she was so easily pushed around in the paint.

So it continues the discussion of ‘21/22 free agent posts.....or through the draft. Whether coach continues the same system, implements more small ball, or is fired, we need starters at the ‘4 and 5’ spots.

‘21:
Collier 6’5 (maybe early declare)
Kuier 6’4
Rupert 6’4
Mack 6’4
Davis 6’2

‘22:
Howard 6’2
Collier 6’5 (if she stays)
Cunane 6’5
Nelson-Ododa 6’5
Smith 6’2
Egbo 6’3


bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 09/16/20 1:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
Well I know [Stewart's] not exactly local NYC, but still if her family lives there it’s a greater chance to see one another more often, especially given that she plays overseas in the offseason.

I consider her hometown to be pretty much an equal drive time to both the Liberty and Sun franchises. If someday Stewie ever wants to return to her home region (god forbid Razz ), New York better hope Connecticut can't come up with a better offer for her. Wink


You can become a Liberty fan! Haha

I think the big draw for any free agent would be Barclays, and playing with Ionescu.


Stormeo



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PostPosted: 09/16/20 1:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
You can become a Liberty fan! Haha

Liberty are absolutely my east coast team. I mean, ok, I pretty much root for all the eastern conference teams because of how important their success is to the League 😅 But I genuinely root for the Liberty since I have family there, and the fans on here have definitely played a part in swinging me over! I think at this point, even if my Storm and Liberty ever faced off in the Finals, I'd 100% root for the title-less Liberty. I'm planning on making the trip to a game... whenever the first full season at Barclays will be. 💔



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 09/16/20 1:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:

Maybe Han Xu can be one of those players, but she needs to really improve the strength. Despite her height, she was so easily pushed around in the paint.

So it continues the discussion of ‘21/22 free agent posts.....or through the draft. Whether coach continues the same system, implements more small ball, or is fired, we need starters at the ‘4 and 5’ spots.

‘21:
Collier 6’5 (maybe early declare)
Kuier 6’4
Rupert 6’4
Mack 6’4
Davis 6’2

‘22:
Howard 6’2
Collier 6’5 (if she stays)
Cunane 6’5
Nelson-Ododa 6’5
Smith 6’2
Egbo 6’3


Han can certainly benefit from more upper body strength, but this idea that she got pushed around in the paint is more urban legend than reality. You have to actually be bodying up against somebody in the paint to get pushed around. Han primarily plays ball denial on defense. She just uses her long arms to knock passes away. On offense, Han is more likely to shoot jumpers or roll to the basket than to post-up. As for rebounding, Han reacts poorly to the ball in the air. She was rarely in good rebounding position, so there was no need to push her out of the way. As I’ve said before, that’s the area where Han really needs a lot of work.

2022 seems like a long time away. If Trump is re-elected, multiple states from both coasts may secede from the union. Aside from that, the WNBA is 4.5 months of season and 7.5 months of waiting. So, you’re talking about a 4th terrible year in a row sandwiched between 15 months of waiting until we hopefully get someone good in the 2022 Draft. That’s just too bewildering for me to comprehend right now.



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 09/16/20 2:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Han can certainly benefit from more upper body strength, but this idea that she got pushed around in the paint is more urban legend than reality. You have to actually be bodying up against somebody in the paint to get pushed around. Han primarily plays ball denial on defense. She just uses her long arms to knock passes away. On offense, Han is more likely to shoot jumpers or roll to the basket than to post-up. As for rebounding, Han reacts poorly to the ball in the air. She was rarely in good rebounding position, so there was no need to push her out of the way. As I’ve said before, that’s the area where Han really needs a lot of work.

2022 seems like a long time away. If Trump is re-elected, multiple states from both coasts may secede from the union. Aside from that, the WNBA is 4.5 months of season and 7.5 months of waiting. So, you’re talking about a 4th terrible year in a row sandwiched between 15 months of waiting until we hopefully get someone good in the 2022 Draft. That’s just too bewildering for me to comprehend right now.


With Han and being pushed around, perhaps she was out of position and wasn’t being boxed out for rebounds. I know on offense she is more finesse, my big concern is that she seemed to be easily scored on and out rebounded.
I don’t think she got many fair chances, I remember she got pulled quickly a lot.

But if the issue is positioning, that makes it seem like more of an IQ/anticipation issue. Which I would hope she could improve but I would have thought the national team staff and nba academy would have taught that.

2022 isn’t necessarily the major focus, but influences what we do in 2021.
If we don’t believe there are fits in the draft for our post spots in either year, we have to go for posts in free agency at some point.
If we love a few posts in 2022, maybe we go after ‘smaller’ targets this offseason ie Hawkins.

I’ve wanted CA to secede for awhile now Laughing


bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 09/16/20 2:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
You can become a Liberty fan! Haha

Liberty are absolutely my east coast team. I mean, ok, I pretty much root for all the eastern conference teams because of how important their success is to the League 😅 But I genuinely root for the Liberty since I have family there, and the fans on here have definitely played a part in swinging me over! I think at this point, even if my Storm and Liberty ever faced off in the Finals, I'd 100% root for the title-less Liberty. I'm planning on making the trip to a game... whenever the first full season at Barclays will be. 💔


Yay!! 😂❤️ I also hope to make a game August/Sept....whenever they are back at Barclays with fans!


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/16/20 5:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If we're going to talk about secession here, I'd like to start with New York City seceding from New York State. Indeed, I'd like New York City to be an independent nation. Smile



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PostPosted: 09/16/20 5:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So sorry. Unintended double post. Seemed that the first hadn't gone through.



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 09/16/20 8:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
If we're going to talk about secession here, I'd like to start with New York City seceding from New York State. Indeed, I'd like New York City to be an independent nation. Smile


I think NYC could do it! Lol


ucbart



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PostPosted: 09/19/20 3:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
WNBA 09 wrote:
Id use Stokes as trade bait , not sure why she was resigned. That final play in the final regular season game against Dallas summed up her ability/court awareness & potential for me . #Puzzled


Who would give up anything to trade for Stokes?


In a weak post draft year i think Stokes could have some value .


I'd do Stokes + Talbot for Dolson, but that's just me...


I was just coming on here to say that the NYL need Dolson. Her ability to pass from the high post is at a very high level. She is a very good passing center and she can bang on the block on defense. With all those guards, it would be nice to play her as the 5 with 4 shooters around her.

I said this around January/February as well.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 09/19/20 3:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Jackie Powell did quote Kolb as saying he will aggressively pursue trades and free agents this off-season. However, if the Liberty didn’t show interest in Dolson as a free agent last winter, I don’t know why they’d want to trade for her now.



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PostPosted: 09/23/20 2:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Jackie Powell did quote Kolb as saying he will aggressively pursue trades and free agents this off-season. However, if the Liberty didn’t show interest in Dolson as a free agent last winter, I don’t know why they’d want to trade for her now.


If NY is seriously looking at Trades and free agent for 2021

IMO NY has very little to trade
They aren't going to trade Ionescu
Durr has potential to blow up this season but has basically played a half a season a year ago and while she showed potential I doubt her value is very high. NY waiting on her to have a great season is probably the best way Durr can improve the team.
Zahui B had a very good season for an awful team, NY would have to be willing to core her, which I doubt they would. I could see NY offer her a decent contract to come back but if they don't core her they can only re-sign her or let her be poached which seems possible.
Johannes like Durr played half a season over a year ago, she also showed a lot of potential but I am not sure what trade value she has based on that half of a season and her Commitment to the french team. Best move for NY wait on her hope she shows up and shows out.
Clarendon has a little value but I am not sure teams would want to pay her six figure when they can probably get a back up point for less without giving up assets.
Nurse probably still has some value but she has less after this season than she had before.
The other rookies. If a team need to dump salary one of the rookies and pick 16 for a player the other teams wants to move on from seems possible, but no one is giving up anything they want for one of our other rookies. I guess Walker, Willoughby, Jones and Odom.
Stokes who we just extended who could probably help a contender. I could see Laimbeer give us his $12 pick for Stokes, or Seattle maybe their #11 pick if Howard goes elsewhere and the Storm need a reliable 4th post.
Our lottery pick, clearly we would have to wait to see where we land and who declares early. If no one declares and we don't get #1 we could probably trade it for a mid level vet, but considering we are rebuilding why not just add someone who fits the profile.

Slightly more interesting is the UFA
(If everyone comes back healthy) adding someone like
Howard or N. Ogwumike would move us into the middle of the pack
Ionesc, Durr, Nurse, Howard or Ogwumike, Stokes is a decent starting line up.
of course that is wishful thinking.
Bringing back our own UFA Zahui B is a start, but I could see some poaching, someone like Minny or Conn might be interested
Looking at some other UFA that might work
OK it is a crazy idea but bring back Charles, she might like the new offense and again if she is in a line up with Ionescu, Durr, Nurse and Stokes it has some potential.
Not a post, but Laney would be a great fit with NY's system.
If Zahui leaves Hawkins seems like a decent replacement
Ch. Parker should get some consideration
Breland also kind of fits
I also think based on pre season comments it is pretty likely Hopkins will try to get Allen to come over
GloJo, Dupree and R. Williams all could fit with our style and are better than what we have but I just don't see them with the Liberty

These comments are in response to what management said and not necessarily moves I am advocating


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PostPosted: 09/23/20 6:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Interesting analysis J-Spoon. I don't think things are quite a bleak as that, though. There are teams with specific needs that one or more of the Liberty players might fit. I think probably Howard is likely to be the most "available" UFA prize out there and seems to me she will go to the highest bidder. NY should have the cap space and living in NY does have its appeal. I suspect most every team will be trying to get her, if the Storm don't core her.

Nneka may also be available, but I could see her wanting to go to a contender, so NY would be out.



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PostPosted: 09/23/20 10:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I have one positive comment and one negative observation about the situation.

Plus: There are always things happening behind the scenes that we don’t know about. Maybe Kolb already has information through back channels. This past winter, I never would have guessed in a million years that Bonner would force her way out of Phoenix to go to Connecticut. Another surprise was Sykes and Gullich being traded for Kalani Brown. That deal wasn’t on my radar in any form. I think the new salary structure is going to force a lot of movement. With so many players floating around as free agents, and more big names due the following year, odds are we’re going to get a number of surprises.

Minus: As far as NYC itself being a draw, all the things that normally attract people to this city are currently under lockdown. Music, theater, art, sporting events, nightlife, restaurants, etcetera are all closed or severely limited. I believe COVID will be with us for at least another year. Consequently, any player who wants to live in New York for the excitement will have to make the commitment based on faith, hoping that New York returns to normal in 2022.



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PostPosted: 09/23/20 11:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
I think probably Howard is likely to be the most "available" UFA prize out there and seems to me she will go to the highest bidder. NY should have the cap space and living in NY does have its appeal. I suspect most every team will be trying to get her, if the Storm don't core her.


No way. She’ll be Seattle’s top priority. Next priority, Clark. Next, Bird. Then probably Whitcomb.



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