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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 20386



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PostPosted: 06/19/20 1:46 am    ::: Discussions in Area 51 Reply Reply with quote

Genero36 wrote:


Okay, we've come to the end of this, G.

Trevor Noah is the biggest star on an entire cable television network. The Daily Show Twitter account, where you got this meme and where he ostensibly tweets from, has 8.7 MILLION followers. He is a celebrity mountain of influence in a world of celebrity mountains of influence who are on top of all of us little people weighing down upon and crushing our voices across both mainstream media and social media alike.

Go get Trevor Noah and tell him to sign up with Luuuc and I'll happily argue these points with him personally.

If YOU have something to say about this or any other subject on Rebkells, I'm asking you to compose your own thoughts, type them up, and post them here. You're among LONG TIME friends and you're welcome to speak your mind about these issues. We need conversations here to flourish among the people who belong to this message board community.

If you want to start ONE Genero's What Celebrities Think About Everything thread please do, you're welcome to do that and post all the tweets and memes you like in that thread. But no more of these celebrity refutations by way of you in the midst of already fraught topical conversations taking place among real Rebkell's people who have been in this community forever.

This is the second time I've touched on this so let me be absolutely clear: No more.



_________________
Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8259
Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 06/19/20 3:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What is so wrong with people expressing their thoughts through the sourced words of others?

If someone is more comfortable sharing words that have resonated with them and they find fitting than writing a rambling post like I am apt to do, why is that a problem?



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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 20386



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PostPosted: 06/19/20 4:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
What is so wrong with people expressing their thoughts through the sourced words of others?

If someone is more comfortable sharing words that have resonated with them and they find fitting than writing a rambling post like I am apt to do, why is that a problem?


Because these are very difficult conversations to have. They are fraught subjects that most people frankly avoid altogether. They’re not even safe conversations to have at this point. But it is essential that regular people engage in these conversations at this time and hear actual thoughts and opinions from each other and that those who want to engage in a dialogue on these subjects feel that they have a space somewhere in which they can do that.

It is not a place for people to sit in these conversation threads relentlessly, and I mean relentlessly, hammering celebrity opinion memes into the faces of those who are stepping up and taking on these uncomfortable topics with their own thoughts and opinions.

We already know what Hollywood thinks. This message board is for what we think. You sign up to post your thoughts and opinions on this message board and that’s what you need to do. But you have to respect the conversation. It is occurring between members of this message board community. This has become a very uncomfortable place for people with alternative or contrary political opinions. The common practices and responses that make those people feel uncomfortable or unwelcome here are now widespread and very commonplace on social media everywhere.

Glowering outsized celebrity voices are a big part of that.

So they have their place out on Twitter and Instagram and on their television shows to put their opinions in front of the public. We are all experiencing celebrity opinions on politics coming at us constantly. There are many in this country who would tell you that these celebrity voices are controlling narratives. Determining what are acceptable perspectives to voice and what it is even acceptable to think. The effect of celebrity influence on the conversations we’re having around politics and social justice issues is extremely one-sided.

These are opinions that millions upon millions of Americans have about celebrity culture and the politics being espoused by Hollywood. They make it difficult for regular people to feel comfortable voicing contrary opinions.

The tradition in this community was once very rich with many people participating who were coming from wildly different perspectives. Not ten really smart people. Dozens of really smart people. Many of us work very hard to craft our own thought pieces and post them here. I’ve spent over 20 years thinking about message boards and what makes good ones work and specifically worrying over this community and what can and should be done and mostly what shouldn’t be done to create an atmosphere where the widest range of really smart people are comfortable and interested enough in the company and conversation they find here to keep coming back.

But something has gone wrong. This place has taken on the characteristics in terms of enforcing attitudes and behaviors that now permeate social media platforms like Twitter, etc. Responses to opinions that are outside the range of a very progressive group here are often met with derision and tactics like ascribing to people the worst of motives. I’m expressing and have been for years that this stuff has made even me uncomfortable posting contrary opinions or angles on issues that people who are running with boilerplate woke dogma might view as coming from some nefarious place.

I’m identifying and I’m determined to put a stop to the very few things that I believe are putting a damper on the potential of the conversations here, stifling a more open atmosphere and what can be said and by whom. I’ve been doing that in this community since the MSNBC days 21 years ago. If someone dared to do or say anything that stifled the conversations we were having on our message board I was on that isht like nobody’s business long before I became an admin here.

These are unique times to say the least. Fraught and dangerous times. People are canceled and fired and lives are destroyed for saying or doing things SIMPLY because of SJW mobs piling on those people on social media. We have never ever seen a time when an ultra rich celebrity class act as cultural flamethrowers and social justice influencers. We hear them, G. We can’t escape them. Please let us have this space with their presence here kept to a minimum.

So let’s do it this way for now. I’m asking. Please stop posting celeb memes and all this shit from Twitter. Think about what this Area 51 group is at this point. A dozen or so lonely souls who are still hanging on to what this place used to be. Hanging on to each other. Talk to us. Talk to me and I’ll talk to you. Don’t put signs up in my face with the words celebrities have written. I’ve articulated the outsized impact these celebrity voices are having at this time on our national culture. All this does here is discourage some of us from wanting to voice our own opinions.

Which is exactly what it is intended to do.



_________________
Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8259
Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 06/19/20 6:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What I am saying is that I think you are discounting a valid form of communication. Some people struggle to find their own words when it comes to extremely emotional subjects, so they communicate by finding the words of others that resonate with the way they are feeling and use those words to convey their POV.

They are not sharing celebrity opinions, they are sharing their own opinions channeled through the words of another.

Shutting down valid forms of self-expression and communication just because they don't conform to the way we choose to communicate is troubling to me.



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Genero36



Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 11188



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PostPosted: 06/19/20 7:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Genero36 wrote:


Okay, we've come to the end of this, G.

Trevor Noah is the biggest star on an entire cable television network. The Daily Show Twitter account, where you got this meme and where he ostensibly tweets from, has 8.7 MILLION followers. He is a celebrity mountain of influence in a world of celebrity mountains of influence who are on top of all of us little people weighing down upon and crushing our voices across both mainstream media and social media alike.

Go get Trevor Noah and tell him to sign up with Luuuc and I'll happily argue these points with him personally.

If YOU have something to say about this or any other subject on Rebkells, I'm asking you to compose your own thoughts, type them up, and post them here. You're among LONG TIME friends and you're welcome to speak your mind about these issues. We need conversations here to flourish among the people who belong to this message board community.

If you want to start ONE Genero's What Celebrities Think About Everything thread please do, you're welcome to do that and post all the tweets and memes you like in that thread. But no more of these celebrity refutations by way of you in the midst of already fraught topical conversations taking place among real Rebkell's people who have been in this community forever.

This is the second time I've touched on this so let me be absolutely clear: No more.


I am posting quotes that resonate with me on the topic irregardless of their public status. If you have a problem with that, that is your problem but I think you already know that.

You rub me the wrong fucking way as a black person and I've been done with you for some time and I am especially done with this site now if you are a some type of moderator.



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Ex-Ref



Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 6107



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PostPosted: 06/19/20 7:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
What I am saying is that I think you are discounting a valid form of communication. Some people struggle to find their own words when it comes to extremely emotional subjects, so they communicate by finding the words of others that resonate with the way they are feeling and use those words to convey their POV.

They are not sharing celebrity opinions, they are sharing their own opinions channeled through the words of another.

Shutting down valid forms of self-expression and communication just because they don't conform to the way we choose to communicate is troubling to me.


I totally agree with Justin.

Plus, for me, they are a concise way to get a message across. I don't have the time to read through a dissertation-like Jammer post. I may skim it, but for the most part, I totally skip it.



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Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 12970
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 06/19/20 9:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
justintyme wrote:
What I am saying is that I think you are discounting a valid form of communication. Some people struggle to find their own words when it comes to extremely emotional subjects, so they communicate by finding the words of others that resonate with the way they are feeling and use those words to convey their POV.

They are not sharing celebrity opinions, they are sharing their own opinions channeled through the words of another.

Shutting down valid forms of self-expression and communication just because they don't conform to the way we choose to communicate is troubling to me.


I totally agree with Justin.

Plus, for me, they are a concise way to get a message across. I don't have the time to read through a dissertation-like Jammer post. I may skim it, but for the most part, I totally skip it.


I second these emotions. As a person who absolutely will NOT follow Twitter, fb, Instagram, etc., I find Genero's (and others') interjections of memes to lend an interesting diversity on our threads. Though it may be graphically different, in concept it's no different than if I post a sourced quote from Howard Stern or Tallulah Bankhead that may resonate with me, or underscore a point I'm trying to convey.

The part I REALLY don't understand is how you think those memes stifle conversation or suppress opinions. Even if I'd disagree with their message, I don't feel 'shut down' by them. I remember the days of diversity here, when posters like vanyogan, caune, shrew, black & gold, beknighted, etc., all offered different layers of insight and divergent opinion. Monolithic thinking is not the friend of socio-cultural growth.



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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 20386



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PostPosted: 06/19/20 11:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
justintyme wrote:
What I am saying is that I think you are discounting a valid form of communication. Some people struggle to find their own words when it comes to extremely emotional subjects, so they communicate by finding the words of others that resonate with the way they are feeling and use those words to convey their POV.

They are not sharing celebrity opinions, they are sharing their own opinions channeled through the words of another.

Shutting down valid forms of self-expression and communication just because they don't conform to the way we choose to communicate is troubling to me.


I totally agree with Justin.

Plus, for me, they are a concise way to get a message across. I don't have the time to read through a dissertation-like Jammer post. I may skim it, but for the most part, I totally skip it.


I just want to point out the obvious. My 'message' and my positions on issues aren't represented by giant Trevor Noah memes pulled over here from Twitter. People who take the time to compose and share their varied and often quite intellectual opinions on issues are golden in my book. This place is for them. Or us. That's the way it used to be and now with so many social media outlets to just stab at points with memes and stuff like that I am standing here asserting that people posting their own thoughts is what this message board is about and it is not about bringing glowering celebrity memes coming from high on the hill for the sole purpose of controlling what we down here in the dirt are talking about or thinking.



_________________
Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
ThreeBall25



Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 2746



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PostPosted: 06/19/20 12:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Ex-Ref wrote:
justintyme wrote:
What I am saying is that I think you are discounting a valid form of communication. Some people struggle to find their own words when it comes to extremely emotional subjects, so they communicate by finding the words of others that resonate with the way they are feeling and use those words to convey their POV.

They are not sharing celebrity opinions, they are sharing their own opinions channeled through the words of another.

Shutting down valid forms of self-expression and communication just because they don't conform to the way we choose to communicate is troubling to me.


I totally agree with Justin.

Plus, for me, they are a concise way to get a message across. I don't have the time to read through a dissertation-like Jammer post. I may skim it, but for the most part, I totally skip it.


I just want to point out the obvious. My 'message' and my positions on issues aren't represented by giant Trevor Noah memes pulled over here from Twitter. People who take the time to compose and share their varied and often quite intellectual opinions on issues are golden in my book. This place is for them. Or us. That's the way it used to be and now with so many social media outlets to just stab at points with memes and stuff like that I am standing here asserting that people posting their own thoughts is what this message board is about and it is not about bringing glowering celebrity memes coming from high on the hill for the sole purpose of controlling what we down here in the dirt are talking about or thinking.


It's almost like *gasp!* things have changed, are currently changing, and will continue to change.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 20386



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PostPosted: 06/19/20 12:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Ex-Ref wrote:
justintyme wrote:
What I am saying is that I think you are discounting a valid form of communication. Some people struggle to find their own words when it comes to extremely emotional subjects, so they communicate by finding the words of others that resonate with the way they are feeling and use those words to convey their POV.

They are not sharing celebrity opinions, they are sharing their own opinions channeled through the words of another.

Shutting down valid forms of self-expression and communication just because they don't conform to the way we choose to communicate is troubling to me.


I totally agree with Justin.

Plus, for me, they are a concise way to get a message across. I don't have the time to read through a dissertation-like Jammer post. I may skim it, but for the most part, I totally skip it.


I second these emotions. As a person who absolutely will NOT follow Twitter, fb, Instagram, etc., I find Genero's (and others') interjections of memes to lend an interesting diversity on our threads. Though it may be graphically different, in concept it's no different than if I post a sourced quote from Howard Stern or Tallulah Bankhead that may resonate with me, or underscore a point I'm trying to convey.

The part I REALLY don't understand is how you think those memes stifle conversation or suppress opinions. Even if I'd disagree with their message, I don't feel 'shut down' by them. I remember the days of diversity here, when posters like vanyogan, caune, shrew, black & gold, beknighted, etc., all offered different layers of insight and divergent opinion. Monolithic thinking is not the friend of socio-cultural growth.


Look I would be shocked at this point if there wasn't a chorus of voices here stepping up in support of Genero and his celebrity memes. That's because the handful of you who are left here have largely gotten the woke progressive Area 51 that suits you. Replete with a vibe that's hostile or demeaning to those who would dig into issues and touch against third rails and cultural trip wires as they exist out on the open internet and social media.

You mention diversity of opinions. I find that ironic but then I'm never quite sure where you're coming down on an issue and maybe that's a tribute to the multi-faceted way your mind works, Howee. But if I were able to invite people and have them actually join up here and post regularly the diversity of thought would look different then having this be one more place on the internet or even television where we are saturated and often smothered with celebrity opinions.

The point I'm making here lately is that I need YOU guys to understand that the tide is turning AMONG even progressives and other non-politically aligned voices against the push backs on opinions that deviate from woke dogma by insinuating, hinting, suggesting, etc. (as is being done here and has been done in the past by others) that those who are offering those nuanced opinions on literally now dangerous topics like race relations in America and the role of police and all of that are bad people and on the wrong side of history and that they are propping up a racist system because they (insert side-eye here) are harboring racism in their own hearts and MUST be exposed for it and pushed back to the dregs where they belong.

Watch the Matt Taibbi appearance on Krystal Ball's show I'm going to post in my response to Genero.

And once more for the record, Genero is welcome here. His own thoughts and opinions are welcome here. He can even start a thread wherein he posts all the celebrity memes and opinions he wants to. But he needs to take this internet meme stuff that he's inserting into these conversations we are having here that are clearly venturing into areas he is uncomfortable with WAY down from where it is at now to like 1% of that.

Except in a thread he might start for that express purpose. He can do whatever he wants there.

You bring up the old days. I think some of us are thinking that the internet is just the internet now and it's all the same. That Rebkell's is now just an extension of social media with the same norms and rules and featured elements.

But I'm asking you guys to think back for a moment, those of you who have been doing this as long as I have, to something called message board etiquette.

Remember when things like ALL-CAPS was taken as SHOUTING and rude behavior on a message board? If that was considered rude behavior what is shit like this?



This is and will always be a small group of people like friends in someone's living room. There hasn't been a time here in years when you couldn't fit all the people engaging on Area 51 in my living room. Friends. You come in here to talk to each other. You don't bring in protest signs from all over the internet and put them up in place of yourself. If you did you would not be invited back.

If you're not thinking about this place that way, then you're thinking about it the wrong way. This isn't the American street or the steps outside public buildings. I have always had a vision for what this message board community should look like. This entire community has been impacted by that vision and the place mostly runs itself now.

But I myself have stepped back from this place and Area 51 at many points over the last five or six years and have been hesitant to post the entire range of my opinions here or even at times any opinions at all. And I've completely stepped back from any attempt to course correct a part of this Rebkell's message board that I have felt had clearly gotten to being a one-sided affair.

If all we had on this message board or in American society were progressives with no Republicans or corporate conservatives anywhere on the political landscape I'm not going to say that that would displease me. I would call that progress. But that's not the way it is so let's push that aside for another time. What I'm having the most serious problem with is one side, MY side, eating its own. The conversations AMONG Democrats and progressives has become dominated by one large and loud faction with explicit and implicit threats of complete and utter personal destruction of anyone who dares suggest flaws in our own perspectives now a feature of our fraught times.

So what is happening here (on a much smaller scale and with much less significant impacts) and has been happening out in the greater world is a CLASSIC feature of the political landscape now. The great and hopeful thing is that probably a full third of the people who occupy the space of political discussion in this country are RAILING against the intolerance on the progressive woke left to dissenting voices or even voices that have the same goals but the temerity to express that they differ on the tactics and methods required to get this country to that better place we all want to get to.

So that's my message to you guys. I'm here to plant a flag that says the old message board LITERAL free speech etiquette is going to be the way forward on Area 51 as we continue to operate as a community. This does not mean your posts as woke performance art or protest free speech with signs and marches and shouting. We know that's happening on social media and out on the internet at large. This place is a respite from that noise and more importantly how that noise discourages or even shouts down dissenting viewpoints.

Free speech on Rebkell's means YOU have a right to speak freely without the group or the moderators or me shutting you down. But I repeat, that applies to YOUR free speech and by that I mean YOUR thoughts composed in the text fields provided by the software here. And all the old unwritten rules still apply. Attack ideas and not people. Don't troll. Don't play mind games with each other and please don't play them with me.

If you have to plagiarize someone else's thoughts, fine. Beyond rolling my eyes I certainly don't give a shit. But look at the damned meme and type out the words and post them here as your own. That is something that at least warrants a response from someone wanting to engage on these subjects. Respect the conversation and more importantly respect those who are taking the time to type out and share their own passionately held positions. Right clicking on an image on the internet and bringing it here and wrapping it in the IMG code is NOT the same thing as spending HOURS formulating and typing up your own thoughts to share here with others.

And as a society that is now TRULY in deep trouble, we need to hear from people whose minds are bursting forth with their OWN passionately held opinions on the issues of the day to do what we can do to make our society better, more just, and moving toward mutual goals that we should assume that we all share.



_________________
Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 20386



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PostPosted: 06/19/20 1:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Genero36 wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Genero36 wrote:


Okay, we've come to the end of this, G.

Trevor Noah is the biggest star on an entire cable television network. The Daily Show Twitter account, where you got this meme and where he ostensibly tweets from, has 8.7 MILLION followers. He is a celebrity mountain of influence in a world of celebrity mountains of influence who are on top of all of us little people weighing down upon and crushing our voices across both mainstream media and social media alike.

Go get Trevor Noah and tell him to sign up with Luuuc and I'll happily argue these points with him personally.

If YOU have something to say about this or any other subject on Rebkells, I'm asking you to compose your own thoughts, type them up, and post them here. You're among LONG TIME friends and you're welcome to speak your mind about these issues. We need conversations here to flourish among the people who belong to this message board community.

If you want to start ONE Genero's What Celebrities Think About Everything thread please do, you're welcome to do that and post all the tweets and memes you like in that thread. But no more of these celebrity refutations by way of you in the midst of already fraught topical conversations taking place among real Rebkell's people who have been in this community forever.

This is the second time I've touched on this so let me be absolutely clear: No more.


I am posting quotes that resonate with me on the topic irregardless of their public status. If you have a problem with that, that is your problem but I think you already know that.

You rub me the wrong fucking way as a black person and I've been done with you for some time and I am especially done with this site now if you are a some type of moderator.


And this is the whole point. You're doing this to refute me because you've been done with me for a long time. And not just me. Anyone who thinks something different or challenging on these issues and all of the complex positions on politics and race relations and the police and all the rest and who wants to come here to this now TINY group of a few people to explore these issues among open minds.

You think I don't know you're over all that and have been over it for a long time?

This is a place where people can have these discussions giving them the full breadth and width that these very complex and very dangerous matters DEMAND of intelligent people who are serious about having those discussions in an effort to break through to some kind of progress.

And if you want to enter into those discussion, for God's sake, please do.

But as a black person, you're saying I rub you "the wrong fucking way." Why? Because I stray CONSISTENTLY from the exact precise positions and thinking that's considered to be acceptable political thought as plastered across social media by your celebrities. Deviate and you risk being cancelled.

If you want to have a conversation with me about this stuff HAVE IT. If you're over me or above having that conversation and have decided to post glowering celebrity memes in place of us having a conversation and I believe that practice is stifling free and open conversation on this message board (and I DO) then I'm going to stop it.

This is the reality we live in now.

Right now, in the last few weeks people who have dared to utter dissenting viewpoints on the events happening at this time have have had their careers taken away from them.

Fired. Destroyed. And so many others are having attached to them the most damning and damaging motivations that we can attach to a person now. Racists. There is no coming back from that. In today's cultural and political climate or in practically any other political climate in my lifetime that is the scarlet letter that once it is hung on you you are stuck with for the rest of your public life.

And so, as a black person, you're giving me the side-eye. The side eye that suggests and assigns to me these most horrible white motives and feelings. Never mind that I'm coming from a place that wants to get to the same more racially just society I have always wanted to get to as a main feature of my politics. But my idea of how to get there, my criticisms of my own side, deviates from the woke progressive dogma that has taken over the left that uses the cancelling and destruction of those who sidestep even slightly from the approved narrative ground to quash dissenting perspectives on how we can all get where we all want to be.

For instance. I said BLM in response to Michael Brown and Ferguson was a BIG MISTAKE. I think Barack Obama and Eric Holder have said the same things. A couple of years later America elects Donald Trump.

And I'm not the only one talking about these tactics that stifle honest debate and what they're doing to people trying to have these most serious and fraught discussions.

Here. Watch this. Please. And give it the 18 or so minutes it requires. Krystal Ball and Matt Taibbi are progressives. Progressives are revolting on the destructive social media mobs pushing back against those who deviate from the approved narratives. This is seriously happening in American political thought now. I'm seriously pushing back on it happening here.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/yq3y8UBguO8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>



_________________
Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 20386



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PostPosted: 06/19/20 1:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ThreeBall25 wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Ex-Ref wrote:
justintyme wrote:
What I am saying is that I think you are discounting a valid form of communication. Some people struggle to find their own words when it comes to extremely emotional subjects, so they communicate by finding the words of others that resonate with the way they are feeling and use those words to convey their POV.

They are not sharing celebrity opinions, they are sharing their own opinions channeled through the words of another.

Shutting down valid forms of self-expression and communication just because they don't conform to the way we choose to communicate is troubling to me.


I totally agree with Justin.

Plus, for me, they are a concise way to get a message across. I don't have the time to read through a dissertation-like Jammer post. I may skim it, but for the most part, I totally skip it.


I just want to point out the obvious. My 'message' and my positions on issues aren't represented by giant Trevor Noah memes pulled over here from Twitter. People who take the time to compose and share their varied and often quite intellectual opinions on issues are golden in my book. This place is for them. Or us. That's the way it used to be and now with so many social media outlets to just stab at points with memes and stuff like that I am standing here asserting that people posting their own thoughts is what this message board is about and it is not about bringing glowering celebrity memes coming from high on the hill for the sole purpose of controlling what we down here in the dirt are talking about or thinking.


It's almost like *gasp!* things have changed, are currently changing, and will continue to change.


Oh but what if they're not? What if they're not really changing? What if the arc of history doesn't bend towards justice after all? Darn it. What if we're just being duped once again by what we think is our own political side of things but is actually now just the other clenched fist in a perpetual one-two punch to the face of Americans that is destroying any chance we have at a fair just and equal society by protecting only the interests of elites and the ultra affluent... THROUGH their celebrity mouth pieces?

Let's take this asshole and what he's doing apart.

Trevor Noah is suggesting in his meme here as posted by G that "IF YOU DIDN'T RESIST ARREST YOU WOULD STILL BE ALIVE." is a racist trope. This woke celebrity, and undoubtedly he's not the the first to assert this, has added his celebrity endorsement to what is a NEW racist trope that actually seeks to CHANGE and establish new societal norms by dictating the reaction by law enforcement to those who punch the shit out of respectful peace officers doing the jobs that society demands them to do. Physically fighting the police, potentially KILLING THEM, suggests Trevor Noah, is something we need to now accept as allowable behavior on the part of people being taken into custody by the police.

So there. I've taken my time, on top of everything else that I've written here this morning, to give my opinion on something that this celebrity has said. He can't answer me though. He doesn't even fucking know I exist. Rolling Eyes



_________________
Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin


Last edited by jammerbirdi on 06/19/20 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 06/19/20 1:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The problem is you are treating these as if they aren't his thoughts and opinions. Your view of how one is supposed to communicate their beliefs is highly reductive. Not everyone is comfortable writing paragraph after paragraph, and some people just gravitate more toward the visual representations of a graphic than they do the written word. And sometimes people struggle to put words to the complex and deep emotions they have on some subject.

But that doesn't mean what they post doesn't come from them. Sometimes other people who are much more eloquent or clever with words than us are able to encapsulate our feelings better than we ever could have.

And I'm not sure what this would have to do with having nuanced opinions or developing additional voices here. Whether someone posts their thoughts in meme or quote form or whether they do it in paragraph form, the result is largely the same. People are free to agree with the content that poster contributed, disagree with it, or just ignore it completely. But worrying about the medium through which a person goes about expressing themselves seems very "conform to my sensibilities or get out".



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 06/19/20 1:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:


So there. I've taken my time, on top of everything else that I've written here this morning, to give my opinion on something that this celebrity has said. He can't answer me though. He doesn't even fucking know I exist. Rolling Eyes

Because Jammer, no one cares that Trevor Noah said it. It's not the point that Trevor Noah said it.

It was posted here because Genero feels that way. He feels that this is a racist trope. As do others. If you feel that it isn't, make your case and either Genero or one of those others might respond. Or they might not. Just like as if they had said it themselves rather than quoting someone else. But either way, the fact that Trevor Noah won't have a discussion with you about it is irrelevant, as he's not the one who shared his words here. Another living, breathing poster did. Who is available and does know who you are.



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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 06/19/20 1:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
Look I would be shocked at this point if there wasn't a chorus of voices here stepping up in support of Genero and his celebrity memes.


I always thought Genero was a her, not a him. But I'm often wrong about such things.



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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 06/19/20 2:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
The problem is you are treating these as if they aren't his thoughts and opinions. Your view of how one is supposed to communicate their beliefs is highly reductive. Not everyone is comfortable writing paragraph after paragraph, and some people just gravitate more toward the visual representations of a graphic than they do the written word. And sometimes people struggle to put words to the complex and deep emotions they have on some subject.

But that doesn't mean what they post doesn't come from them. Sometimes other people who are much more eloquent or clever with words than us are able to encapsulate our feelings better than we ever could have.

And I'm not sure what this would have to do with having nuanced opinions or developing additional voices here. Whether someone posts their thoughts in meme or quote form or whether they do it in paragraph form, the result is largely the same. People are free to agree with the content that poster contributed, disagree with it, or just ignore it completely. But worrying about the medium through which a person goes about expressing themselves seems very "conform to my sensibilities or get out".


This is a message board. I'm saying express your own opinions and do it predominately by typing them here in the provided text field or yes, get out. I'm not just suggesting, I'm insisting that maybe a message board such as this isn't the place for someone who has trouble expressing themselves in writing and so then as an alternative chooses to hammer the conversations with celebrity memes instead.

Yes, these are subjective judgments I'm making. These are the kinds of things that have been setting a tone here on Area 51 for a long time. And it is my opinion that these behaviors have and our continuing to negatively impact this message board community here.

As far as conforming to my sensibilities or getting out, to some degree that's the factual reality you've all been living under here for the better part of two decades. My track record is all about protecting free speech (not the figurative version, but the literal version) and protecting the community by allowing people to enjoy posting their thoughts and opinions safely and WITHOUT a minority of one or two or even the majority resorting to personally attack that person or his or her motives.

And all of that has happened anyway countless times despite any of our best efforts.

It's fine to bring a celebrity opinion here to discuss. But that's not what's happening. You may be ignoring the context or failing to read between the lines of what is actually happening in these thread with these memes. They are Genero's way of pushing back on conversations he doesn't want to see happening here. Opinions he doesn't like. There is a cumulative effect of someone relentlessly doing what he's doing here in these conversations.

That's what I'm saying and that's what I'm putting a stop to.



_________________
Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 06/19/20 2:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Look I would be shocked at this point if there wasn't a chorus of voices here stepping up in support of Genero and his celebrity memes.


I always thought Genero was a her, not a him. But I'm often wrong about such things.





_________________
Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 06/19/20 2:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:


So there. I've taken my time, on top of everything else that I've written here this morning, to give my opinion on something that this celebrity has said. He can't answer me though. He doesn't even fucking know I exist. Rolling Eyes

Because Jammer, no one cares that Trevor Noah said it. It's not the point that Trevor Noah said it.

It was posted here because Genero feels that way. He feels that this is a racist trope. As do others. If you feel that it isn't, make your case and either Genero or one of those others might respond. Or they might not. Just like as if they had said it themselves rather than quoting someone else. But either way, the fact that Trevor Noah won't have a discussion with you about it is irrelevant, as he's not the one who shared his words here. Another living, breathing poster did. Who is available and does know who you are.


Are you trying to make me feel better? Thank you!

Look. You need to re-read what I've written. About what is happening here, the intent behind it, and the effect it is having.



_________________
Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
insidewinder



Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 213



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PostPosted: 06/19/20 6:21 pm    ::: This is Reply Reply with quote

unlike anything I have ever seen on a discussion board. Shutting down posts because they use the words of others will not make the discussion any better. I barely post but I do read, and if this goes through I will stop doing even that because this site would be censored in a way I find troubling. There is a difference between a meme that is meant to hurt and one that is meant to help express an opinion.

Also, seems to me a moderator should not take things so personally. If everything seems personal, maybe time to take a step back.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 12970
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 06/19/20 7:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Well. This IS still a Democratic society, no?

Maybe we ought to conduct a poll to see who among active posters here on Area 51 find such things as Genero's memes to be intimidating or counterproductive to their own opinions and free speech. Not as a jr. high popularity contest, but as a way to let each of us who values this space to weigh in on the concept.

If not an actual poll, maybe a thread where anyone who cares can simply voice their opinion on the idea. The thing that puzzles me, jammer, is how you assert that some (many?) here are stifled. Let them also speak up, if they care. In the 15+ years I've been a part of this forum, I have seen many raucous debates and lots of 'intimidation'. Plenty of which I engaged in. And I've seen many good minds vacate the premises, either banned or turned off (tony, luvdhoops, queenie, etc.) It was very necessary, imo, for the cavalry to ride in and 'clean up' the (literal) hate speech that was bantered about, but this latest bent is confusing.



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Ex-Ref



Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: 06/19/20 7:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
justintyme wrote:
The problem is you are treating these as if they aren't his thoughts and opinions. Your view of how one is supposed to communicate their beliefs is highly reductive. Not everyone is comfortable writing paragraph after paragraph, and some people just gravitate more toward the visual representations of a graphic than they do the written word. And sometimes people struggle to put words to the complex and deep emotions they have on some subject.

But that doesn't mean what they post doesn't come from them. Sometimes other people who are much more eloquent or clever with words than us are able to encapsulate our feelings better than we ever could have.

And I'm not sure what this would have to do with having nuanced opinions or developing additional voices here. Whether someone posts their thoughts in meme or quote form or whether they do it in paragraph form, the result is largely the same. People are free to agree with the content that poster contributed, disagree with it, or just ignore it completely. But worrying about the medium through which a person goes about expressing themselves seems very "conform to my sensibilities or get out".


This is a message board. I'm saying express your own opinions and do it predominately by typing them here in the provided text field or yes, get out. I'm not just suggesting, I'm insisting that maybe a message board such as this isn't the place for someone who has trouble expressing themselves in writing and so then as an alternative chooses to hammer the conversations with celebrity memes instead.

Yes, these are subjective judgments I'm making. These are the kinds of things that have been setting a tone here on Area 51 for a long time. And it is my opinion that these behaviors have and our continuing to negatively impact this message board community here.

As far as conforming to my sensibilities or getting out, to some degree that's the factual reality you've all been living under here for the better part of two decades. My track record is all about protecting free speech (not the figurative version, but the literal version) and protecting the community by allowing people to enjoy posting their thoughts and opinions safely and WITHOUT a minority of one or two or even the majority resorting to personally attack that person or his or her motives.

And all of that has happened anyway countless times despite any of our best efforts.

It's fine to bring a celebrity opinion here to discuss. But that's not what's happening. You may be ignoring the context or failing to read between the lines of what is actually happening in these thread with these memes. They are Genero's way of pushing back on conversations he doesn't want to see happening here. Opinions he doesn't like. There is a cumulative effect of someone relentlessly doing what he's doing here in these conversations.

That's what I'm saying and that's what I'm putting a stop to.


I guess I'm gone then. I can't and won't, support this. It's been fun. Not so much right now.

Area 51 is "anything goes" and isn't supposed to have a moderator, yet we have one that is dictating how/what people can post when there is nothing offensive about the post. You don't like the post, skip it. Like I do most of yours.



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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 06/19/20 8:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Well it's not a democracy at all and it never was. And you want to take a poll of those of you left here who kind of rule this board from one political perspective? How about if we award 20 votes each to a couple of posters here of my choosing? Because one political perspective is so underrepresented in this group. Because of the circular or self full-filling nature of people sitting down and setting the acceptable tone for a group just as it suits them and their politics.

I mean WHAT are you guys NOT getting about this moment in political discourse in this country, the trending of this kind of thing, how it impacts people's willingness to engage and feel safe exploring or expressing their own controversial viewpoints? That is a delicate thing in this political climate to do.

We're not talking about Genero really. We're talking about a woke celebrity culture that has been in overdrive for years, has transformed comedic entertainment in this country into political warfare, and we're talking about someone bringing that stuff and pounding it into the threads so that we can never not be inundated with the perspectives if not the glowering stares of these celebrities.

If I say, hmmm. I think we might be very close to losing the commitment of police to do their jobs. Something I was thinking two days ago before some police forces have proven me right. If I'm thinking of saying that here and I'm presented with a picture of Trevor Noah admonishing us all that it is a RACIST TROPE to even THINK that physically resisting the police by visiting violence on their persons by wrestling with them and punching them in the face and taking away their deadly weapons should be expected to result in their deaths? Do you think that doesn't send a message that maybe I better check myself and that opinion on the police, in this culture of people being routinely cancelled for suggesting exactly that kind of thing?

If you don't think this is a thing, then PLEASE, let me bring you up do date! It's a thing! Watch the videos I'm posting that discuss these realities if anyone here is indeed out of the loop about how treacherous it is to engage on race and every other politically fraught topic anymore.

Look I've articulated my position very well in my first response to justin that kept me up till 3 AM.

I'll copy and past it here just in case someone might be inclined to actually read it. But we're not talking about shutting down a poster here.

We're talking about shutting up the army of celebrities who have TV shows and 8 million Twitter followers and who do not need anyone to spread their thoughts all over this message board while those of us who have given years of themselves to this place are pulling back because of the message that these celebrity opinions in big bold graphic memes being brought here sends to us.

And let me be very clear. THAT is Genero's intent. If it doesn't send a strong discouraging message to any of YOU it is because you AGREE with the content of these celebrity memes!

But nobody is silencing Genero. Get the hell out of here with this idea that he needs to have entertainers speak for him. He is still welcome to engage with his own thoughts or cherry pick the thoughts of others and post them here as his own. There's nothing wrong with any of that. Stop the memes. That's too damned easy and it becomes like a wall of thought from people who aren't here that we then have to consider and work around or through.

And that is also a form of trolling. You're putting things up that take up our time and space and annoy some of us and we are to do what, as justin suggest we could do, argue with the damned meme that Genero thinks is a worthy thought? lol. Get the heck out of here with that #$%!

You want me to show you how that works in reality?

Here. You were involved. Glenn, responding to a meme by Genero.

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Genero36 wrote:


That blurb is complete nonsense.

Those three judges didn't dissent because of bigotry. They all agree that equal treatment for LBGTQ is the correct policy, but they don't believe nine bubble-wrapped lawyers in Washington, D.C., should be making national policy on on this or any other important issue. Rather, their jurisprudential philosophy is that judges should stick to interpreting textual laws according to the commonly understood meaning of the textual words at the time of enactment.

They believe, on constitutional separation of powers principles, that such national policies should only be made by the elected branches of government, Congress and the President, by enacting clear laws that implement the policies. If Congress wanted the word "sex" in the Civil Rights Act to include sexual orientation or psychological gender preference, which it clearly did not in 1964, then the constitutionally appropriate body to make such a legal change, as social mores change, is Congress. In fact, many such bills have been proposed in Congress recently, and about half the state legislatures have amended their state civil rights laws to cover sexual orientation and gender preference.

Citizens should learn something about basic civics and the constitution and stop slandering people with allegations of racism and bigotry.


I don't know about this other stuff but I'm with Glenn on that point.

Here's Genero.

Genero36 wrote:
Howee

You certainly have more patience than I do because I don't bother to entertain those who use being willfully obtuse as an artform.


Doesn't engage with this very well crafted explanation. Instead, Genero just dismisses Glenn by calling him obtuse.

If you need these memes to speak for you then I'm sorry. Start a thread of your own.

jammerbirdi wrote:
justintyme wrote:
What is so wrong with people expressing their thoughts through the sourced words of others?

If someone is more comfortable sharing words that have resonated with them and they find fitting than writing a rambling post like I am apt to do, why is that a problem?


Because these are very difficult conversations to have. They are fraught subjects that most people frankly avoid altogether. They’re not even safe conversations to have at this point. But it is essential that regular people engage in these conversations at this time and hear actual thoughts and opinions from each other and that those who want to engage in a dialogue on these subjects feel that they have a space somewhere in which they can do that.

It is not a place for people to sit in these conversation threads relentlessly, and I mean relentlessly, hammering celebrity opinion memes into the faces of those who are stepping up and taking on these uncomfortable topics with their own thoughts and opinions.

We already know what Hollywood thinks. This message board is for what we think. You sign up to post your thoughts and opinions on this message board and that’s what you need to do. But you have to respect the conversation. It is occurring between members of this message board community. This has become a very uncomfortable place for people with alternative or contrary political opinions. The common practices and responses that make those people feel uncomfortable or unwelcome here are now widespread and very commonplace on social media everywhere.

Glowering outsized celebrity voices are a big part of that.

So they have their place out on Twitter and Instagram and on their television shows to put their opinions in front of the public. We are all experiencing celebrity opinions on politics coming at us constantly. There are many in this country who would tell you that these celebrity voices are controlling narratives. Determining what are acceptable perspectives to voice and what it is even acceptable to think. The effect of celebrity influence on the conversations we’re having around politics and social justice issues is extremely one-sided.

These are opinions that millions upon millions of Americans have about celebrity culture and the politics being espoused by Hollywood. They make it difficult for regular people to feel comfortable voicing contrary opinions.

The tradition in this community was once very rich with many people participating who were coming from wildly different perspectives. Not ten really smart people. Dozens of really smart people. Many of us work very hard to craft our own thought pieces and post them here. I’ve spent over 20 years thinking about message boards and what makes good ones work and specifically worrying over this community and what can and should be done and mostly what shouldn’t be done to create an atmosphere where the widest range of really smart people are comfortable and interested enough in the company and conversation they find here to keep coming back.

But something has gone wrong. This place has taken on the characteristics in terms of enforcing attitudes and behaviors that now permeate social media platforms like Twitter, etc. Responses to opinions that are outside the range of a very progressive group here are often met with derision and tactics like ascribing to people the worst of motives. I’m expressing and have been for years that this stuff has made even me uncomfortable posting contrary opinions or angles on issues that people who are running with boilerplate woke dogma might view as coming from some nefarious place.

I’m identifying and I’m determined to put a stop to the very few things that I believe are putting a damper on the potential of the conversations here, stifling a more open atmosphere and what can be said and by whom. I’ve been doing that in this community since the MSNBC days 21 years ago. If someone dared to do or say anything that stifled the conversations we were having on our message board I was on that isht like nobody’s business long before I became an admin here.

These are unique times to say the least. Fraught and dangerous times. People are canceled and fired and lives are destroyed for saying or doing things SIMPLY because of SJW mobs piling on those people on social media. We have never ever seen a time when an ultra rich celebrity class act as cultural flamethrowers and social justice influencers. We hear them, G. We can’t escape them. Please let us have this space with their presence here kept to a minimum.

So let’s do it this way for now. I’m asking. Please stop posting celeb memes and all this shit from Twitter. Think about what this Area 51 group is at this point. A dozen or so lonely souls who are still hanging on to what this place used to be. Hanging on to each other. Talk to us. Talk to me and I’ll talk to you. Don’t put signs up in my face with the words celebrities have written. I’ve articulated the outsized impact these celebrity voices are having at this time on our national culture. All this does here is discourage some of us from wanting to voice our own opinions.

Which is exactly what it is intended to do.



_________________
Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin


Last edited by jammerbirdi on 06/19/20 8:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 20386



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PostPosted: 06/19/20 8:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
justintyme wrote:
The problem is you are treating these as if they aren't his thoughts and opinions. Your view of how one is supposed to communicate their beliefs is highly reductive. Not everyone is comfortable writing paragraph after paragraph, and some people just gravitate more toward the visual representations of a graphic than they do the written word. And sometimes people struggle to put words to the complex and deep emotions they have on some subject.

But that doesn't mean what they post doesn't come from them. Sometimes other people who are much more eloquent or clever with words than us are able to encapsulate our feelings better than we ever could have.

And I'm not sure what this would have to do with having nuanced opinions or developing additional voices here. Whether someone posts their thoughts in meme or quote form or whether they do it in paragraph form, the result is largely the same. People are free to agree with the content that poster contributed, disagree with it, or just ignore it completely. But worrying about the medium through which a person goes about expressing themselves seems very "conform to my sensibilities or get out".


This is a message board. I'm saying express your own opinions and do it predominately by typing them here in the provided text field or yes, get out. I'm not just suggesting, I'm insisting that maybe a message board such as this isn't the place for someone who has trouble expressing themselves in writing and so then as an alternative chooses to hammer the conversations with celebrity memes instead.

Yes, these are subjective judgments I'm making. These are the kinds of things that have been setting a tone here on Area 51 for a long time. And it is my opinion that these behaviors have and our continuing to negatively impact this message board community here.

As far as conforming to my sensibilities or getting out, to some degree that's the factual reality you've all been living under here for the better part of two decades. My track record is all about protecting free speech (not the figurative version, but the literal version) and protecting the community by allowing people to enjoy posting their thoughts and opinions safely and WITHOUT a minority of one or two or even the majority resorting to personally attack that person or his or her motives.

And all of that has happened anyway countless times despite any of our best efforts.

It's fine to bring a celebrity opinion here to discuss. But that's not what's happening. You may be ignoring the context or failing to read between the lines of what is actually happening in these thread with these memes. They are Genero's way of pushing back on conversations he doesn't want to see happening here. Opinions he doesn't like. There is a cumulative effect of someone relentlessly doing what he's doing here in these conversations.

That's what I'm saying and that's what I'm putting a stop to.


I guess I'm gone then. I can't and won't, support this. It's been fun. Not so much right now.

Area 51 is "anything goes" and isn't supposed to have a moderator, yet we have one that is dictating how/what people can post when there is nothing offensive about the post. You don't like the post, skip it. Like I do most of yours.


Your sig line is two quotes by AOC! lol. I'm going to suggest maybe you're not coming at this from an unbiased political perspective.



_________________
Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
insidewinder



Joined: 19 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: 06/19/20 8:47 pm    ::: Unbiased political perspective? Reply Reply with quote

No one on earth has an unbiased political perspective. You seem to be fine with letting certain people create a thread about COVID from a certain perspective, with memes and whatnot that make it totally non-objective. I hate that thread. I just do not read it, problem solved.

You are censoring the board and it seems that you know that and are fine with it. If that is what you wish to do, I think the best thing the rest of us can do is depart. Nobody will miss me and my read only (mostly) style, but this area will die if censored, and maybe it should. Life is too short to participate or even to read a board where the moderator thinks it is his job to police how someone chooses to express an opinion, or the source for an idea. There is nothing wrong or nefarious about choosing to post a meme (or song, or story taken from elsewhere, etc.) to express your point of view.

Moderation in all things, including moderation, perhaps? Was that original? Does it even matter?


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 20386



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PostPosted: 06/19/20 9:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yeah, people can start threads. They're very easy to avoid. That's exactly what I'm suggesting.



_________________
Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
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