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After Ionescu, Which Rookie Will Impact New York The Most?
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After Ionescu, Which Rookie Will Impact New York The Most?
Jazmine Jones
11%
 11%  [ 5 ]
Leaonna Odom
17%
 17%  [ 8 ]
Kylee Shook
6%
 6%  [ 3 ]
Megan Walker
44%
 44%  [ 20 ]
Jocelyn Willoughby
20%
 20%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 45

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mavcarter
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PostPosted: 06/01/20 12:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
Who do I vote for if I don't think any of those players are going to be any good?


Don’t vote would be my guess.. Laughing



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PostPosted: 06/01/20 2:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Here is the thing

the rookie who will likely make the biggest impact is the one who gets the most minutes. Here is the problem with figuring that out

Walker, Willoughby, Jones and Odom are all 6 to 6' 1" G/Ws who may also play some at the 4 spot in Hopkins system but

figuring out who is going to get the minutes is really difficult while there games aren't the same

Walker is the best shooter
Willoughby has the best all around game
Jones is the best defender and slasher
Odom is the most athletic with possibly the highest ceiling

but who gets the minutes, will it be split evenly, will there be some sort of meritocracy where ones minutes will increase with greater performance, or will that matter lease in a season where Hopkins is working out his system and fit and wins don't seem that crucial. Could Jones have some advantage seeming like more of a SG than the others, or will Nurse or Ionescu slide over to the SG spot when Durr is off the floor.

Then you have Shook who seems to be playing behind Zahui B and Stokes. If Shook ends up also seeing minutes at the 4 spot she is going to be splitting them with Allen and all of the possible 3/4 from above (Walker/Willoughby/Odom).

My over all feeling is

Walker has possible future all-star, is a year younger and has at least one legit W level skill in her shooting so she seems the most likely to be developed and get the most minutes.

Willoughby is the quiet assassin type. She has the best two way game and what seems like a desire to compete and improve. Normally I am drawn to flash but I won't be shocked if Willoughby has the best rookie season of the rest and a decent W career.

Jones I just don't know, she seems like a prototypical two was decent sized WNBA SG there is no reason she wouldn't succeed, but there have been a lot of players in this style who make and who don't is she closer to a Hayes, Sykes, R. Williams type a Copper, S. Johnson, A. Gray, SWk, Hill, S. Rodgers type or an Allston, Epps, Harper, Simmons, Marshall type?

Odom Going back to my being drawn to flash IMO Odom has a tom if IT factor, she has the least impressive college stats of these four but I just have a feeling if given a chance she is the one who will blow up. She has the highest ceiling IMO and maybe if as other Duke players have she flourishes under a new coach/system then I think she has a shot. OTOH she is the last of our rookie draft class and with all the other players who need minutes to show what they can do she might not have much of a chance. She'll be that player who will blow up on her second WNBA team.

Shook I will be thrilled if she proves me wrong but I feel similar to Myrtle that she is a good college player who will be out matched at this level. (I have already stated I would have picked Mompremier instead of her but I also would have picked Brewer if you were going for 3 and D post). Again I hope she proves me wrong but I think she will be the next in a long line of players like Hamblin, Bulgak, Huff, Robinson, Malott, Coates, Hollivay, Alleyene etc. Not saying the exact same type of game but excellent college posts who are good enough to get in the league but not good enough to stay in the league. The advantage that Shook does have is once Hopkins has a good feel for Zahui B and Stokes Shook may get some more minutes that won't be available to the other 4 rookies, and if she delivers in those minutes more opportunity will come her way.

Overall
I think Walker will get the most minutes to prove her worth, Willoughby will do the best with the minutes she gets and Odom is my long shot to out perform the other rookies if she gets a decent shot. Long story long I think the consensus of the poll is accurate.


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PostPosted: 06/01/20 10:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

1. Walker is the youngest, but her November birthday only makes her 8 months younger than Willloughby, Odom, and Shook who all became 22 in March. Sabrina turns 23 in December. Jones is the old lady -- she becomes 24 in October.

2. Shook is much more proven as a 3-pt shooter than Brewer. Brittany does fine shooting from mid-range, but she only started shooting 3's as a senior and wasn't all that successful (9-37 24.3%). Brewer is good at blocking shots, but I'm not convinced her overall defense is anything special. She definitely doesn't have the lateral quickness of Shook.

3. My take on Walker is that she has enough athletic ability to play in the WNBA, and the stats indicate she has very good shooting skills. Her problem is getting too amped-up for big games. She needs some kind of emotional reinforcement -- either a hug or a kick in the butt. I think the coaching staff can provide the former and Sabrina will happily do the latter. Megan also needs to diversify her offense. She relies too much on long jump-shots.

4. It's clear that you can separate the Liberty picks into two groups. The first three are offensive skill players who put up big numbers. The second three are defensive players who put-up moderate numbers but are more athletic. It's easy to dream when it comes to athleticism, but I think skill usually wins out as long as the skilled player is at least an average athlete.



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PostPosted: 09/29/20 12:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

...and the winner, effectively after making the All-Rookie Team, is Jazmine Jones! She garnered the least votes here (just 1 out of 38!), so maybe she saw this post and it got her fired up 😤, ready to prove the doubters wrong. Wink

Who makes it to the Liberty's final roster next year? My order of who has thus far made the most impact on the court to the least:
1. Jones
2. Odom
3. Willoughby
4. Shook
5. Walker



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PostPosted: 09/29/20 3:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

great poll and great results to show us know-it-alls that we don't really know much at all. Laughing But it was fun.



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PostPosted: 09/29/20 5:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Jones 10+ points a game put her on the all rookie team but an argument can be made that Odom was the better Liberty player

Odom had more floor time, shot 49% to Jones 40% on many fewer attempts meaning Jones scored more points but also missed a lot more shots. Odom also had 15 TOs in more minutes played to Jones 58.

Jones was flashier and more exciting but also made a lot more mistakes. It will be interesting to see how the Liberty value those two results. Jones has a lot of potential but has to improve in a lot of areas, and at least on the offensive end what she was doing later in the season when she increased her scoring is going to be replaced when Ionescu, Durr and Johannes are back in the fold. OTOH most of Jones' mistakes came from being a late first round rookie suddenly thrust into the role of a number 1 or 2 offensive option maybe she can take what she learned in 2020 and apply it to a more efficient reduced role in 2021 but that can be a hard adjustment. While Odom was meshing her game with the starters all season long and playing decent defense with more consistency in her role while making a lot fewer mistakes. Odom's game also has a lot of room for improvement, and she has a lot of potential, but more importantly Odom might be more of a fit with Liberty 2021 when Ionescu and Durr are back on the team.

I would also rank Jones and Odom as the best of the six rookies who played the whole season. I would probably agree that Jones had the most impact in 2020 but I think Odom will be the best fit with Liberty 2021.


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PostPosted: 09/29/20 6:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Jones, regarding the turnovers, also was thrust into a position (point/lead guard) she hadn’t played since high school.
I agree Odom fits with the roster better for next season, so now would be the time to trade her with value being higher than it may ever be (not saying it’s a lot now lol but still).

Did we vote on this before we found out Megan Walker tested positive for COVID? I am pretty sure I voted for Walker, but I think it was before this knowledge.
Willoughby would have been my next pick though, tbh.


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PostPosted: 09/29/20 6:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
Jones 10+ points a game put her on the all rookie team but an argument can be made that Odom was the better Liberty player.


Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked



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PostPosted: 09/29/20 7:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

not impressed with Odom. Yeah she shot 49% but you could say she missed 51% of her shots from 6' or less. (ok, only a slight exaggeration) Lots of activity but looked lost and missed a lot of bunnies.



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PostPosted: 09/29/20 7:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
not impressed with Odom. Yeah she shot 49% but you could say she missed 51% of her shots from 6' or less. (ok, only a slight exaggeration) Lots of activity but looked lost and missed a lot of bunnies.


+1 Jaz Jones is a Gem. Send her to Dallas we will give you Thornton? Laughing



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 12:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There were times when Odom looked like a natural out there, and other times where she would just disappear from the game. It was clear offensive rebounding was one of the few jobs assigned to her, but even that wasn't consistent. Still, she gives them a little something the other perimeter rookies and players don't. I don't know if that something's enough, but it's still something. Ditto Jones and her physicality and ball-handling (which imo have proven to be enough). The Liberty perimeter could see this competition play out in 2021's camp:

PG – Ionescu/Clarendon/Kea
SG – Durr/Nurse/Johannès
(S)F – Allen/Talbot/Willoughby/Walker

And I have absolutely no idea how Willoughby or Walker fit into this group if that's indeed what it'll be.



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 1:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
...and the winner, effectively after making the All-Rookie Team, is Jazmine Jones! She garnered the least votes here (just 1 out of 38!), so maybe she saw this post and it got her fired up 😤, ready to prove the doubters wrong. Wink


Just for the record, Jones's one vote was Luuuc's "pity vote" prompted by Bob.

Luuuc wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
It's a shame that people can't switch their votes in these polls. I'd switch to Jazmine Jones; I hate to see her with ZERO votes. Smile

I hadn't voted yet so she got my pity vote.


So, Jazmine got no real, sincere votes -- proving once again we're so smart on this board. Laughing



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 1:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Embarassed



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 3:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
Embarassed


you have shown us Americans something about compassion. thank you.



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 8:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
Embarassed


you have shown us Americans something about compassion. thank you.


If Jazmine Jones is an All Star next season, it'll all be thanks to Luuuc's "pity vote." Smile



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 8:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
myrtle wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
Embarassed


you have shown us Americans something about compassion. thank you.


If Jazmine Jones is an All Star next season, it'll all be thanks to Luuuc's "pity vote." Smile


Doubtful there will be an ASG next year with the Olympics happening



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PostPosted: 09/30/20 9:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
If Jazmine Jones is an All Star next season, it'll all be thanks to Luuuc's "pity vote." Smile


Doubtful there will be an ASG next year with the Olympics happening


Deleted my reply.



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 1:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My predictions/gut feelings on who's on the Liberty's roster at the start of the 2021 regular season (by virtue of being kept or getting cut/traded):

Holmes: No
Jones: Yes
Odom: No
Shook: Yes
Walker: Yes
Willoughby: No

(forgot Holmes lol whoops)



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Last edited by Stormeo on 10/01/20 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: 10/01/20 2:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
My predictions/gut feelings on who's on the Liberty's roster at the start of the 2021 regular season (by virtue of being kept or getting cut/traded):

Jones: Yes
Odom: No
Shook: Yes
Walker: Yes
Willoughby: No


I totally understand the thought process behind this

Jones as I described above is a prototypical large SG who can defend. She averaged double digit ppg (not always an easy feat on the Liberty the last few seasons, neither Durr or Nurse did it their rookie year) and if Johannes doesn't show or shows late there is a clear cut role for Jazmine. Jones is also trying develop into being a PG sometime and is big enough to play the 3 in the system. And tbh after Ionescu went out there is an argument that Jones was not only the best rookie but possible one of the top two players on the team.

Walker, basically this was a non season for her she showed late because of health issues and never really got going. She was never the player we saw at UConn, and being slightly younger, as well as valued the highest based on draft order it is easy to se management just having 21 as a reset year, sort of like getting a second decent first round pick in the 21 draft. In short if management believes her value is higher than the other wings neither of them did enough to bump her out of her status even with her unsuccessful season.

Shook atm New York only has two true posts under contract (except Han) who seem like they will be available at the beginning of 2021. As much as management spoke about the 3 at the 4 system Zahui, Stokes, and Shook got enough minutes that the Liberty went with two true posts more often then they did not. Shook showed just enough on both ends of the floor to be worth investing a little more time in and even if we re-sign Zahui and draft a post Shook would still be only the 4th post considering most teams go with 5 she could probably even survive a free agent post signing.

Which sort of leaves Odom and Willoughby far enough down the depth chart and redundant enough, that if Allen shows up, or Johannes shows up, or we draft a wing or sign a free agent wing they would be the most vulnerable to being cut.

This goes back to some of what I was feeling after the draft, it almost seemed unfair that we brought in so many similar player because I couldn't see how most could survive to the next roster or really be given enough time to prove themselves. Don't even get me started on Holmes because I think (even though she was admittedly terrible on paper) she showed some flashes of what she could develop into and she is clearly not going to get to do that in 21 with the Liberty.

You could even argue that Odom and Willoughby might have been hurt by getting the most opportunity. I still think Odom makes it next year but she also while I would argue fit best with the starters she also wasn't aggressive, did look lost on occasion and in trying to fit in probably didn't make as much as an impression as Jones. While Willoughby who also fit in just did such a poor job scoring, and unlike Odom more like Jones had a bunch a game where she took and missed a lot of shots that might have been worse than say Walker who just never really was given a chance to look bad for long periods of time. Also who knows what impression each of these player would make if Ionescu was still there. I do like Jones, but Jones for the second half of the season became the 1st option on the perimeter because she could consistently get her shot for herself while Ionescu was gone and Clarendon also looked messy as a high usage player. While Odom and Willoughby (and Holmes) probably would have benefited greatly from having someone like Ionescu to set up their offense. Kea came and and did better than most because she was able to get her own shot.


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PostPosted: 10/01/20 10:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

While offense grabs people's attention, defense counts too. Odom was considered the team’s best perimeter defender. She got the toughest defensive assignment every game whether PG, SG or SF. And before the season, management made it clear that Leaonna was drafted for her defense. They viewed her offense as being in the development stage. Hopkins said during the season that he felt Odom was ahead of schedule. I’d be very surprised if Leaonna is not on the team next year unless she gets packaged in a trade.

Willoughby seems like another Hopkins favorite. From the things he said, it sounds like she had the best training camp. It was Willoughby who initially replaced Ionescu when Sabrina went down. Like Odom, Jocelyn is considered a good defender. Unlike Odom, they didn’t give up on her defending against post players. While Leaonna got pushed around, Jocelyn could at least hold her ground. Unfortunately, taller players still shot over her. Nonetheless, I have a feeling Walt considers the situation to be a work in progress. If he’s really going to try this SFs as PFs experiment, Willoughby is his physically strongest wing. Allen gives you more length, but like Odom she might get manhandled (womanhandled? personhandled?). On offense, Willoughby was ridiculously bad around the rim, but she did lead the team in 3-Pt percentage. Yes, it was a smallish sample size (15-37 40.5%), but that’s as many made 3's as Clarendon and Jones who played significantly more minutes.

The other alternative if you want strength is Talbot. She is listed at anywhere from 175 lbs to 200 lbs. Stephanie is 6-2 in the US, but 6-1 (185 cm) in Australia. Either way, she probably gives you the best combination of strength and length among the wings. However, I’m not sure Talbot sits high in the pecking order given that she was acquired for a 3rd Round pick. Stephanie would need to have a really impressive training camp to make the team.

Walker is the big question mark. She was the Liberty's most highly regarded draft pick after Ionescu. Megan has a legitimate excuse for her bad season, given that she went into quarantine and missed training camp. Still, we can't unsee that Walker was really bad on both ends of the court. Skill is her calling card because there is nothing special about Megan physically. Among the wings, other players are taller, stronger, or more athletic. Megan is staying afloat based on reputation. Like Kia Nurse, Walker is another odd situation that’s very difficult to evaluate.



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 11:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

love all these insights. you guys are good!
I really wanted to like Willoughby. There's definitely something likable about her - she has a good pro body, seems to be a decent defender (which is unusual for a rookie) and she could drive to the rim... but her A/To number was not good and I also found myself holding my breath every time she went to the rim - will she or will she not make this bunny, that is the question. She actually reminds me a bit of Shameka Christon, for those of you who've been around for awhile, though Meka was (I think) taller. [I'm talking about her before Syl smushed her eyeball. She was never the same player after that.] Putting Willoughby at the 4 though is totally unfair to her...unless the other team is also playing small ball.

Jones so far exceeded my expectations that perhaps it made me overlook her shortcomings. I know that I had the thought numerous times watching her that she could be as good as Jackie Young, which is pretty astonishing since Jackie went #1 last year.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Walker included in a trade deal. I think on a different team she might blossom. So hard to tell from this year!

Would love to hear what Queenie thinks.



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 1:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It just seems like all of these players would thrive for sure (other than Holmes – she's just too much of a project here in the pros at this point, despite her being highly regarded coming out of high school) if they weren't on the same team. Each of the true perimeter players are a little different and bring slightly different skillsets to the table, but they absolutely aren't drastic enough to justify keeping all of them.



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 1:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
It just seems like all of these players would thrive for sure (other than Holmes – she's just too much of a project here in the pros at this point, despite her being highly regarded coming out of high school) if they weren't on the same team. Each of the true perimeter players are a little different and bring slightly different skillsets to the table, but they absolutely aren't drastic enough to justify keeping all of them.


Seems a safe bet that all six will not be on New York's 2021 12-player roster. Perhaps it's time for a new poll: how many of these six rookies WILL be on the final Liberty roster for 2021? Smile

And which ones will they be?



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PostPosted: 10/01/20 3:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
It just seems like all of these players would thrive for sure (other than Holmes – she's just too much of a project here in the pros at this point, despite her being highly regarded coming out of high school) if they weren't on the same team. Each of the true perimeter players are a little different and bring slightly different skillsets to the table, but they absolutely aren't drastic enough to justify keeping all of them.


Seems a safe bet that all six will not be on New York's 2021 12-player roster. Perhaps it's time for a new poll: how many of these six rookies WILL be on the final Liberty roster for 2021? Smile

And which ones will they be?


It is a really hard question to figure out the answer to

How badly does NY want to win next year vs rebuild?

How committed is the coach to the vision that ended in drafting 5 rookies (4 with similar physical profiles) not including the #1 pick?

What could actually be gleaned from a historically bad season after you lost your new face of the franchise 2 and a half games in and your most likely 2nd option in 21 opted out? Is it even possible to judge fit?

How many free agents will be willing to come to NY including some of our own Allen Zahui B, Talbot?

Excluding Zahui B any free agent signing including (including Allen and Talbot) knocks one of the sophomore off IMO, while Zahui not resigning could open a spot for one?

my original opinion was 3, but because I think next year will also be weird and we won't kill it with free agents now I think maybe 4, so my answer is 3 or 4. Even though I may have said contradictory things in previous essays my guess is

Jones in
Odom in

Shook in (variable circumstance if we resign Zahui and/or Allen, draft a post and sign a post free agent out)

Willoughby/Walker I only see one surviving unless we go all the way to 5. Maybe try to trade with pick 16 for something small or maybe just decide to keep one and cut the other

Holmes out (unless like Walker management bets on her potential, saw just enough in flashes and practice and her size like Shook gives her more positional uniqueness, but she would have to kill it in Israel and keep Holmes almost certainly knocks off Shook, seems very unlikely but strange things can happen, atm she is last in first out of the rookies)

other fun variable is what happens with Kea

Ionescu/Claredon
Durr/Jones
Nurse/Odom/Walker or Willoughby
Zahui B or Allen/lottery pick
free agent or maybe a trade*/Stokes/Shook

that is 4
if the or between Zahui B and Allen becomes an and Shook is out
that is 3

If Johnnaes, Talbot or Kea end up on next years team someone else is out
If neither Zahui b, Allen or Talbot are on next years team maybe both Willoughby and Walker are in

If Nurse has some trade value left over from 19 not out of the question we trade her (but that is more for NY 21 thread)

* I agree that NY could go after Ch. Parker with a max contract. I could also see Chicago in wanting to keep Ch. Parker offering Dolson (in a salary dump) for something like one of our borderline Sophomores (Walker, Willoughby, Shook) and pick 16. Dolson might not be the best fit but does have range and a Dolson/Stokes 2 headed center wouldn't be that bad. I am assuming we can get Dolson for very little because Chicagos motivation would be to save money by getting rid of Dolson contract so they can pay Ch. Parker. OTOH Parker also has range and at 27 would also be a great fit with NY's timeline and seem like a possible get which would be ideal


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PostPosted: 10/01/20 5:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Washington made the playoffs so that 2nd Round pick is #17 (12+5).



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