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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 05/05/20 3:38 am    ::: Coronavirus: Reopening 2020 Reply Reply with quote

I've felt for a while that the pandemic thread had somewhat outgrown itself. But now we are most definitely entering a new stage in our, at this point, still short history with the coronavirus. So I anticipate that this thread will become very active as we discuss what is about to happen and reflect on what we're seeing in real time.

We all know there's a massive political component to this issue. And many very valid viewpoints on all sides. And so much at stake. So let me start things off with my viewpoint.

I'm going to be really blunt. I think history will look back on the reopening of the US and elsewhere here in mid-2020 and characterize it as something like The Great Mistake and I'll leave that right where it is for now.

I can see and I hope everyone here can and be honest that this isn't just driven by conservative red state goobers and all that. This is way beyond that. As I said here about my first drive around the westside of LA a month ago (and every one since) I'm sickened by what I see, let alone what might be being transmitted.

When you see the defiance against even wearing masks in public by the affluent and liberal in addition to the massive protests everywhere you have to know that a significant percentage of the people in this country are driving this. So that's a real thing. So many people don't have any foundation or wiggle room financially and that includes so many small businesses.

But also, people aren’t set up for this in other ways. People lack patience and the ability to focus on their own interests like the more introverted among us. This is truly a very difficult component to even fantasize about effectively controlling should the decision had been to forestall reopening the country for any longer.

So from the beginning, beyond all the criticisms leveled at the Trump administration, I've felt that the political leadership in this country has been abysmally bad. I want to go to bed at some point tonight and don't really want to spend a lot of time cataloguing examples of that but the instances piled up so quickly that it was dizzying. But the lack of standup disciplined and tough leadership from governors and mayors right now is, I think, taking the mishandling of the coronavirus to another level entirely.

I'm thinking of the book JFK wrote (or compiled, can't remember exactly) Profiles in Courage. It was basically a collection of examples of politicians doing things that were immensely unpopular with the public but were nevertheless the right things to do but to their own political peril.

We really aren't seeing anything like that right now. States aren't meeting the criteria laid out for the first stage of the rollout and they're moving on to the second stage. I mean, I heard today that not one state has met those criteria.

What I'm seeing is the entire governing apparatus of the United States from the federal to the local level collapsing to public pressure and business to reopen the country. I think the numbers we heard today leaked out of the White House, possibly intentionally, of 3000 deaths every day by June, essentially a near 9/11 death toll every single day, are, incredibly, now being factored into the decision. Meaning those deaths are a feature not a bug of reopening the country.

But I think, honestly, in my gut, that that's just the beginning. Either the summer wind burns out the virus until fall or by August we're going to have exponential rises in cases and deaths in the US that honestly make this past two months look like the good times.

And I blame politicians for not having the balls to stand up to the moment and control the public. But I blame the public as well. The scenes of what's going on at these protests, and I don't give a shit about the protests, but just looking at these images in terms of social distancing and wearing masks etc. and not gathering in large groups, etc. The protests are a nightmare. Block parties are a nightmare.

Anyway. I could have done a much better job with starting this thread than by just posting a paranoid rant with no documentation. But I'm pretty sure that there's going to be a lot of agreement here on this one so...

I was saying to the mrs jammer that, if the last two months were a harrowing drama to witness, put on the fucking popcorn. Because this shit is about to hit the fan. I hope I'm wrong.



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cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 05/05/20 7:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Welcome to me me me aMErica, where AR-15 toting prepper morons, w/ a year's supply of ammo, beans, rice, and toilet paper, are whining cuz they can't go to the local buffet or beauty salon after a few weeks. Boo fucking hoo.

I think the coming meat shortages will inflame the "open up the economy so I can get infected and kill my (your) grandpa" idiocy and exacerbate the 2nd wave.

Of course, if the gov't had given every working family $50,000 instead of trillions to business, things would be different.

Substantial assistance for "regular" people has never been the capitalist way.



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sambista



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 8:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

i expected we were nearing a civil war, but i never guessed it would be around a pandemic.

in addition to the privileged white people allowed to run around toting semi-automatic weapons, this morning i saw on tv a young, privileged white man push a park ranger (i believe) into a body of water and walk away - his response to the ranger's admonishment about social distancing - as others being admonished laughed.

expect every possible line of division to be mined - age, orientation, race, ethnicity, gender, religion, occupation, political bent, social bent, cultural bent, recreational bent . . .

other countries will recover over time, but america will struggle, exposed for the fraud it has been.



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Luuuc



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 8:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You can completely avoid a second wave if you just keep this first wave in full effect like you're doing at the moment. Well played.
Seriously though, not getting on top of this early has left you in a really tough spot. What should be happening by now is low case counts that you're able to regulate as you loosen things off, but that ain't where you're at yet.

How much will is there left to keep trying to stifle this virus?
Back in the early stages down here when numbers were low but increasing exponentially, a big deal was made of a local model that predicted the consequences of different levels of compliance. It showed a very slippery slope between 70% and 80%



It seems like in the US, you're stuck somewhere in that 70% region and would therefore need to increase the number of people who are doing the right thing. That doesn't feel likely to happen though. So what you're ending up with is the "Unintentional Sweden" pattern.
With the official fatalities predictions now heading back in the upward direction and this talk of up to 3,000 deaths per day, it sounds like the authorities are now trying to own what they can no longer control.
On the plus side, at least you'll be among the first to reach herd immunity.



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sambista



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 8:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
It seems like in the US, you're stuck somewhere in that 70% region and would therefore need to increase the number of people who are doing the right thing. That doesn't feel likely to happen though. So what you're ending up with is the "Unintentional Sweden" pattern.
With the official fatalities predictions now heading back in the upward direction and this talk of up to 3,000 deaths per day, it sounds like the authorities are now trying to own what they can no longer control.
On the plus side, at least you'll be among the first to reach herd immunity.


tripe will be saying, without a hint of compassion or empathy, "they died for the economy. they're heroes."



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toad455



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 8:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's certainly a privilege thing. But it's also a fear issue. The fear of the unknown of when this will end. If you're unemployed, when do you go back to work? Will there be another stimulus check?



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 9:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Own what they can no longer control. That’s about right I think, Luuuc. Except not own as in taking responsibility for. Just owning the information that it is going to happen so they can say they had possession of the facts. I mean, if there was ever a moment for a grim address to the nation this would be it. That would be actually owning it and putting the responsibility or sharing some of it with the public that is now in the throes of agony over the shutdown (frying pan) and not quite seeing the reality of the alternative (fire).

Toad. Just observing what’s happening in terms of the assumed ideologies of those who are now balking at being locked down either because they’re protesting it or just demonstrating their disdain for it, if it were only red state protesters, if it WERE at all suffering flyover economies (but those people don’t typically protest anything), but the breaking point of a significant portion of the population on either side, enough IMO to offset any partisan blame being placed solely on this red state conservative uprising, has been reached.

This goes beyond partisan politics. It’s absorbed partisan politics. Contains it but doesn’t reflect it. We shouldn’t let the side we’re not seeing out in those protests escape guilt or blame. This is literally a now significant portion of our fellow citizens announcing that they’re okay with seeing an additional hundred thousand mostly older comorbids (at this point) wiped off the face of the earth if they can just get out of their houses or apartments and back to their lives earning money.

As far as herd immunity. I wanted to add this pithy thought last night but forgot. I started this thread because my conscience said I needed to put out there to my old friends here that I think this is the moment when people might have to try to be smarter than the herd. When the herd goes one way... etc.

As I said a month or so ago, easing the lockdown changes nothing for us. Not one thing factually. I will say (or admit) that the vibe or mood of the city I’m living in, which is certainly something like a massive organism that is squirming back into active motion after being freakishly still for a long period of time, HAS gotten me off of InstaCart and into the grocery stores myself the last week or so. So even for me it takes a redoubling of the will of independent thinking to fight the natural inclination to join the herd in slowly re-entering the human hustle and bustle.

Maybe I’m mostly talking to myself here but I think we’re looking at something like a form of mass blind hysteria. Given the consequences which are now in the mind of the public and factored into their attitudes and decisions, I would suggest this is like watching a madness contagion taking hold of our fellow citizens and our political leadership. And I think Trump, intellectually lazy and reactionary, who I nevertheless (alone) give credit for being smarter than most think of him being, sees this all for what it is. I think his face and his demeanor the last few weeks reflects the dire hopelessness for his political fortunes given what he can no longer hope to control.

Trump may be only looking at this in terms of his own political fortunes and legacy, but he knows what’s coming.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 10:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Also want to highlight one thing that I think might help illustrate the reality of the lockdown itself so we can better understand what we’re dealing with there. Because, lol, in this case, it’s not just a metaphor anymore to say that we’re all living in our own little bubbles.

So I would say this. Here in Los Angeles, a very large place, I would suggest that, overwhelmingly, individuals under the age of 45, WITH graduate degrees, professionals of all varieties, including doctors, lawyers, etc. CAN NOT financially endure much more of a lockdown. This is what I’m talking about when I’m trying to make this point about red state goobers vs. the enlightened rest of us being a myopic perspective that isn’t seeing all of the forces at work here.

So I’m shining a light on this little subset of the population that maybe people aren’t really considering. Certainly some people are in a position to work at home and that would include a lot of professionals. But I would suggest that, overwhelmingly, no. The white collar workforce will start to seriously shed these people under much more of a lockdown. And I think these folks, younger and less at risk of dying, simply aren’t having it and I just think we need to factor this into our thinking about this all.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 10:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In regards to the financial hardships, having several friends living in NYC, they know that even with rent forgiveness now, that they can't afford to stay in NYC now. They know NYC will be last to reopen and there just won't be jobs available there. People living in NYC are already looking to move out as they know they can't afford to stay there.



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cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 10:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There is no strict demarcation point: flyover country rube/ LA sophisticate. (lol)

However, the AR-15 toting morons ARE johnny reb, don't tread on me rubes, who unfortunately don't only populate the south. Go outside the borders of northern population centers and you'll see plenty of the cobra/confederate flags on houses, in yards, and fluttering from pickup trucks. I live in a 66% Trump-voting, 99.9% white town of 8,000 in "blue" CT.

I don't suffer from that myopic POV.

Imo, Trump IS dumb, in many ways, but he is clever in the way snake oil and used car salesmen are clever. He is a soulless, amoral cunning grifter who will fuck you over in a heartbeat as long as he gets his.



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Last edited by cthskzfn on 05/05/20 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
Richard 77



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 11:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=712246819516388&ref=notif&notif_id=1588546758969606&notif_t=live_video_explicit

The Wisconsin Supreme Court is hearing arguments regarding the extension of the current Stay at Home order. The Republican leaders brought on the lawsuit, claiming the Governor and the health agency went too far.



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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 11:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

sambista wrote:
i expected we were nearing a civil war, but i never guessed it would be around a pandemic.

in addition to the privileged white people allowed to run around toting semi-automatic weapons, this morning i saw on tv a young, privileged white man push a park ranger (i believe) into a body of water and walk away - his response to the ranger's admonishment about social distancing - as others being admonished laughed.

expect every possible line of division to be mined - age, orientation, race, ethnicity, gender, religion, occupation, political bent, social bent, cultural bent, recreational bent . . .

other countries will recover over time, but america will struggle, exposed for the fraud it has been.


Yep. Proudly brought to you by the state of Indiana!! Rolling Eyes



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 1:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:


Imo, Trump IS dumb, in many ways, but he is clever in the way snake oil and used car salesmen are clever. He is a soulless, amoral cunning grifter who will fuck you over in a heartbeat as long as he gets his.


Mmm. You forgot to say he’s unfit for the office he holds. That’s absolutely required. No exceptions. And where is the witty skewering that employs the use of his name? Trimp, Scrump, it’s really not that hard. Where is your creativity this morning, comrad? I’m afraid I’m going to have to report you to CENTRAL for reemphasization.

You know, nuance says that there are other things going on in this country effecting the outcomes in every aspect of our collective lives even way outside the issue of coronavirus.

I would suggest we are going to have a limited effect on base Republican voters who possess AR-15 style weapons and stockpiles of ammunition. Those people are lost to us. How do we open the hearts and minds of their children and grandchildren?

We might be able to do that, and be better able to impact the ills of our society, if we could face up to and retake the reins of power that, at least on a fantasy level, are, purely figuratively speaking, theoretically and hypothetically, within our own grasp. And the only way to do that is to start focusing on those pulling the strings in our own party and in our own (speaking for myself) blissful blue state utopias.

You know, exactly who Trump used to be? Only he didn’t actually care about the politics. He just doled out money hoping for favors on the backend.

So I would ask, what are your thoughts and where is your creative scorn for the now disdainful of the lockdown, but largely invisible, professional classes under the age of 45 who really dominate the upper-income workplace economies of New York and Los Angeles who are either going to go back to work soon in their prior capacities or will be delivering groceries or moving back home and in with their well-off parents? Because if it was just the goobers, we wouldn’t be seeing New York (after what it has been through) or California rushing to open up their economies.

Is there nothing to say, either condemning or compassionate, about all the forces and issues in play here? The lockdown really is destroying people’s lives. Rushing back too soon, as I think most of us are in agreement we are, is by any measure I think going to be worse.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 1:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So the New York Times (for what it’s worth) is reporting from inside the administration that staff has been told they will be dissolving the coronavirus task force.

Does anyone remember the great piece by Matt Taibbi, Inside the Republican Clown Car? Just to establish where he stands on Trump. He had a great video with Katie Helper last week or so about how we should be ignoring Trump. But he isn’t coming from the same place as most on that point. I’ll find it and link to it later.

But at one point he says something I’ve been asserting since Trump was sworn in. He said, there had to be a better way of the media ‘handling’ the reality of Trump as president. OMG. Wow. Totally a devotee of that idea.

And I would contend that having the White House do away first with the daily briefings, and now possibly with the task force itself, as Trump has been overexposed, warts and all, by an overly hostile and unhelpful press, as he scurries off with his tail between his legs only to take up in earnest probably a whole host of spiteful and vindictive actions, we will all pay the price for an elite mainstream media of young journalists trying to make their name by establishing themselves as the next Dan Rather talking back to Nixon or Sam Donaldson talking back to Reagan.

Trump is a dangerous man. He’s not built for just taking abuse. Birx and Fauci have hung in there and would until their dying breath. But we’re going to end up with NO task force with that level of expertise and with just Kayleigh McEnany to guide us through the rest of this ongoing nightmare.

Yeah, I do think there was always a better way of handling a person like Donald Trump than a national temper tantrum that gave the press a choir to preach and sell their product to. JMO.



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 2:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
So the New York Times (for what it’s worth) is reporting from inside the administration that staff has been told they will be dissolving the coronavirus task force.

Does anyone remember the great piece by Matt Taibbi, Inside the Republican Clown Car? Just to establish where he stands on Trump. He had a great video with Katie Helper last week or so about how we should be ignoring Trump. But he isn’t coming from the same place as most on that point. I’ll find it and link to it later.

But at one point he says something I’ve been asserting since Trump was sworn in. He said, there had to be a better way of the media ‘handling’ the reality of Trump as president. OMG. Wow. Totally a devotee of that idea.

And I would contend that having the White House do away first with the daily briefings, and now possibly with the task force itself, as Trump has been overexposed, warts and all, by an overly hostile and unhelpful press, as he scurries off with his tail between his legs only to take up in earnest probably a whole host of spiteful and vindictive actions, we will all pay the price for an elite mainstream media of young journalists trying to make their name by establishing themselves as the next Dan Rather talking back to Nixon or Sam Donaldson talking back to Reagan.

Trump is a dangerous man. He’s not built for just taking abuse. Birx and Fauci have hung in there and would until their dying breath. But we’re going to end up with NO task force with that level of expertise and with just Kayleigh McEnany to guide us through the rest of this ongoing nightmare.

Yeah, I do think there was always a better way of handling a person like Donald Trump than a national temper tantrum that gave the press a choir to preach and sell their product to. JMO.



It boggles my mind that anyone has this opinion.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 4:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Do you know how Matt Taibbi described it? He said the press is HELPING Trump. Playing into his hands. Because the American people can see what they’re doing. Selected and twisting things that the clumsy oaf says and harping on them for days. And it’s turning them off.

Yeah, I’ve been thinking and saying that for years. But that’s Matt Taibbi, author of Inside the Republican Clown Car. Oh I’m sure he’s long fallen out of favor with our side. But he’s not a Republican. Neither am I. You and I both wanted the same person to be elected president in November. Bernie Sanders. Yes, it should concern you that people who are on your side are seeing and saying these things. In the sense that they are really meant as warnings. Not in the sense that they are things you have to stop from being said.

So I’m saying this to you as a person who wants the exact same RESULT from our American political system. We wanted the same kind of socialist for president we’ve wanted probably our entire politically aware lives. We’re wearing the same uniform. On the same side. In the foxhole together. I’m asking you.

Could you please stop haunting every thing I say about Trump?

Please? It feels like you are policing me. it always feels like that with you. It has a chilling effect on my willingness to even come to Rebkells. YOU are doing that. To me. I want what you want as political outcomes. On Rebkells, however, I want to express my thoughts from every angle. I want to use every ounce of the nuance I have left until the gray curtain starts to descend on my awareness. I like doing that here. I always have. You’re making me uncomfortable.

How did we get here already in this thread? Is it because I dared to say that Trump is smarter than what it is permissible by you to be said? You couldn’t hear that? Forgive me. Please. It wasn’t meant as a compliment. You called him cunning. Okay. Replace my word smart with cunning. That’s what I meant anyway. Shocked



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Howee



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 5:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
It's certainly a privilege thing. But it's also a fear issue. The fear of the unknown of when this will end. If you're unemployed, when do you go back to work? Will there be another stimulus check?


This is one point that has haunted my musings the most in all of this, second only to the obvious health concern: The Average Joe/Josephine CANNOT survive the financial burdens pressing down on them. $1200? Really? That doesn't even come close to a month's rent in most places.

The privileged, arrogant assholes who just don't like their style cramped are not who I'm thinking of. Among the others, I totally get the unrest, be it average rubes, idiots, white-collar workers, what have you: IMGONNALOSEITALLL! Add to that the fact that many like me don't even KNOW someone who has it, never mind died from it. Okay, my one neighbor's 88 year old brother died of it. But that's it. I can easily understand the pressure felt by the protesters.

Though not a precise equivalence, some other factors remind me of the HIV/AIDS crisis. Are you old enough to recall that time, 30-40 years ago? Nobody seemed to wanna give it any serious political action while it was a "Gay Disease", until....until it started showing up in the straight white population.

Yes, it was a different kind of epidemic, but the racial/class demographics needed to shift before people (read: White Male Politicians) started taking up the cause with real intent. Is THAT concept in any way related to our society's willingness to take on a bold re-opening? "If it's just the old 'n poor dying....that's a sacrifice we can afford."



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 8:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I have to say that I get more scared every day. For weeks, my local newspaper has shown a graph of cases in NH, and while the absolute numbers aren't high because the state is small, the curve is sharply upward with an unchanged slope. A few days ago, our state's only university medical center opined that peak cases wouldn't be here until late summer or early fall. At least twice a week, there's a leading article about the shortage of PPE in the state and the contortions both the state govt and private individuals are going through to source necessary PPE.

And we're going to reopen the state, albeit gradually? It's "Live Free or Die" here. While many people are staying home, those that go out refuse to wear masks or practice any form of social distancing. People do have to go out in a rural area, because there's no delivery of groceries, prepared meals, medications, or anything except Amazon boxes. And everyone does want to go out, badly, after being cooped up during 6 months of winter.

I have a pretty good idea which side of the Live Free or Die dichotomy is apt to be imposed on me.


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PostPosted: 05/05/20 9:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<embed><iframe width="960" height="540" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/OKUH1gvvQeM" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe></embed>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKUH1gvvQeM



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PostPosted: 05/05/20 11:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

TEXAS GOVERNOR ABBOTT CAUGHT ON RECORDING SAYING REOPENING WILL ESCALATE CORONAVIRUS SPREAD ON SAME DAY STATE BUSINESSES OPEN


Quote:
"How do we know reopening businesses won't result in faster spread of COVID-19? Listen, the fact of the matter is, pretty much every scientific and medical report shows that whenever you have a reopening... that it actually will lead to an increase in spread," Abbott says in the recording. "It's almost ipso facto... The goal never has been to get COVID-19 transmission down to zero."


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PostPosted: 05/05/20 11:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Governors are under pressure from business and workers, but I think they also have the issue of the state running out of money.


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PostPosted: 05/06/20 1:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Governors are under pressure from business and workers, but I think they also have the issue of the state running out of money.


. . . and keeping people off the unemployment rolls.

but i'm trying to wrap my head around this herd immunity thing. i've been holed up pretty well, been out of my apartment, outside, honest to god, only about five times since early march. now i'm afraid that being so bubbled will hurt me because i have no natural defenses against the virus. i'll be like raw meat, once the virus has spread all over kingdom come and the herd is largely (or at least 70%, right?) immune.

what am i missing?

on the other hand, i'm thinking back to january and just now remembering how damned sick i was. i had a nasty cold, i had headaches, and even when i recovered, i couldn't get rid of my cough. then when i traveled to l.a. in early february, i had a sore throat that didn't feel like any sore throat i'd had before. like i seriously thought i might have throat cancer. it eventually went away after a week and a half. so now i'm thinking maybe i really did get the european version of the virus early on. not like i can just run out and be tested for antibodies, though.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 05/06/20 2:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My understanding is that when they talk about "herd immunity" for a contagious disease it is with regard to the disease dying off after a large percentage (60 to 70%) of people get it - and have immunity for some length of time. If each infected person transmits the disease to 0.x people (less than 1) on average, then a virus eventually dies off. Apparently 60 to 70% of the people having it would get the infection rate below 1 regardless of the behavior of the population. But until the "herd immunity" causes the virus to go away, it doesn't stop people from being infected, but their chances of getting it go down as percentage recovered goes up.


sambista



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PostPosted: 05/06/20 4:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
My understanding is that when they talk about "herd immunity" for a contagious disease it is with regard to the disease dying off after a large percentage (60 to 70%) of people get it - and have immunity for some length of time. If each infected person transmits the disease to 0.x people (less than 1) on average, then a virus eventually dies off. Apparently 60 to 70% of the people having it would get the infection rate below 1 regardless of the behavior of the population. But until the "herd immunity" causes the virus to go away, it doesn't stop people from being infected, but their chances of getting it go down as percentage recovered goes up.


ok, so if i'm understanding you correctly, and starting from my concern about under-exposure, if you will . . . the more people who've been infected, the less the chance of the virus surviving and infecting me. but if i do get infected, it doesn't necessarily follow that i won't be walloped because i'm such a fresh, virgin victim. that's my takeaway. unless i've got it twisted.

i keep thinking about george carlin joking that he was immune to everything because he grew up swimming in the hudson river.



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Luuuc



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PostPosted: 05/06/20 4:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

sambista wrote:
that's my takeaway. unless i've got it twisted.

You've got it nicely straightened



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