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mavcarter
#NATC
Joined: 02 Sep 2010
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 Posted: 02/20/21 3:42 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| Clarendon also mentioned her three-point shooting as an issue. |
Interesting, coming from Clarendon._________________
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| Or maybe said poster should quit being a nuisance when people don’t agree? |
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okstateguy
Joined: 18 Feb 2021
Posts: 453
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: 02/20/21 3:51 pm ::: |
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Mack with 24 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assits(2 TO), 1 steal, 6 blocks in a win against Iowa State today. 9/20 from the field and 6/6 from the stripe and 4 fouls.
Had strong first quarter. Struggled in 2nd and 3rd, partially because of increased physicality and guards struggling to find her. Pretty aggressive in 4th. Decent showing given the struggle of the Iowa State matchup.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 02/20/21 7:48 pm ::: |
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| mavcarter wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| Clarendon also mentioned her three-point shooting as an issue. |
Interesting, coming from Clarendon. |
In this draft, McDonald is definitely a high pick.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 02/20/21 10:00 pm ::: |
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I feel like there is some real shuffling in the guard ranks but lets just keep it simple
who do you pick first
McDonald or Evans?
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 02/20/21 11:33 pm ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
I feel like there is some real shuffling in the guard ranks but lets just keep it simple
who do you pick first
McDonald or Evans? |
DUNGEE
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 02/20/21 11:35 pm ::: |
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guards:
1. Dungee
2. Evans
3. Guirantes maybe? I still haven't seen her enough to have much opinion but she is big and reasonably athletic.
4. McDonald
5. Gondrezick
6. Kiana Williams
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 02/21/21 12:22 am ::: |
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I was really looking specifically for a Evans/McDonald comparison because of their similar size and are they aren't a PG question
Dungee is fascinating because she started this thread as a top pick 28 pages ago, fell to the third round in some mocks and is now back in first round/lottery territory.
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 02/21/21 4:05 am ::: |
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I haven't seen much at all of Evans, but McDonald did remind me of Jordin Canada when I saw her play recently. Small but quick, probably good enough to play in the league, but ultimate effectiveness will probably be definied by whether she can shoot from outside in the pros. If Seattle could trade Canada straight-up for the pick that would become McDonald I'd do it. At least McDonald might be able to shoot at WNBA level, whereas we've now got three years of play suggesting that Canada can't/won't. And those four years on a rookie-scale deal vs having to pay Canada next year are valuable.
I feel like that "is X a point-guard?" question is becoming less and less meaningful in the modern game. If their ballhandling is good enough to get the ball over halfcourt and not turn the ball over under pressure, and they're willing to follow coaching instructions to initiate an offense, then they can do what most teams need/want as the lead ballhandler. The number of players who have that inherent 'point guard gene' is so low that you gain more from having a genuine scoring threat on the ball than having someone whose main skill is organisation and running an offense. |
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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| Posted: 02/21/21 5:03 am ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| I haven't seen much at all of Evans, but McDonald did remind me of Jordin Canada when I saw her play recently. Small but quick, probably good enough to play in the league, but ultimate effectiveness will probably be defined by whether she can shoot from outside in the pros. |
I've compared Canada to McDonald historically, too. Canada imo is the 'pure point guard' version of McDonald. The thing is, Canada as a collegiate showed more 3PT competency than McDonald is showing now, and even that couldn't translate at all for Canada. They're still two different players, who both had different circumstances in their respective college programs, but idk – it just doesn't seem to bode well for McDonald.
| Richyyy wrote: |
| If Seattle could trade Canada straight-up for the pick that would become McDonald I'd do it. At least McDonald might be able to shoot at WNBA level, whereas we've now got three years of play suggesting that Canada can't/won't. And those four years on a rookie-scale deal vs having to pay Canada next year are valuable. |
It's such an interesting concept. Emotionally, I wouldn't want to have to go through Canada 2.0 potentially. But McDonald on an upper-half team like the Storm would have a completely different role, since she wouldn't have to (struggle to) do it all like she has been at Arizona. She could be really effective in a more specific/limited role, since she does do multiple things well that should translate to the W. (Though I sure wish one of those things was shooting!) And like you said, she'd be cheap those first few years. Y'know what? Screw it, I'd pull the trigger as well. 
| myrtle wrote: |
guards:
1. Dungee
2. Evans
3. Guirantes maybe? I still haven't seen her enough to have much opinion but she is big and reasonably athletic.
4. McDonald
5. Gondrezick
6. Kiana Williams |
myrtle I'm sorry, but I will never see anything of W value in Kiana Williams.  It's not just her shooting that's streaky, but her overall presence in a game imo, and statistically she doesn't do anything noteworthy that stands above the other point/lead guards. And at 5'8, she's darn near just as small as some of them.
Dungee vs. Guirantes is a really interesting comparison. They're both listed at 5'11, their respective shooting percentages & PPG are damn near identical at the moment, they're both tough as nails, they both can shoot from distance reasonably well – and just for shits & gigs, they both started their collegiate careers out at a Big 12 school.  Dungee seems a little more creative offensively, whereas Guirantes seems to be more of a two-way player & a better/more willing passer. I appreciate SGs/wing players who can do more than shoot when their shots aren't falling, so I personally would (continue to) give the nod to Guirantes.
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Davis4632
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 02/21/21 10:11 am ::: |
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| That's the first suggestion I've seen that Anastasia Hayes might come out
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ClayK
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| Posted: 02/21/21 10:19 am ::: |
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Watched Guirantes again -- I really like her as a player but there is a question about her athleticism/explosiveness from what I've seen.
She plays hard, talks on defense, can shoot some, is clever in the lane and has good size.
But can she guard in the W? And will quick defenders overwhelm her?
Again, in this draft, she's a high pick, and if she can adjust to the athleticism of the W, with her skills, she could become a solid starter. Athleticism, though, can erase skills, and that's the uncertainty with Guirantes.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 02/21/21 10:21 am ::: |
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If Dallas were to keep all their picks, surely they wouldn't go post at #1, #2 and #5.
On top of what everyone thinks about the draft class, this year is such a mess due to no one knowing who the hell is going to be eligible. Even last year we just had a bunch of people who could declare if they wanted to; this year the entire senior class could stay in school if they chose to, never mind the juniors. |
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mavcarter
#NATC
Joined: 02 Sep 2010
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bbsamjj
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
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| Posted: 02/21/21 11:40 am ::: |
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| Which WNBA players do we think are best comparisons for what Guirantes/Dungee could become? Allisha Gray? Britney Sykes? Maybe McBride?
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 02/21/21 12:40 pm ::: |
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WNBA mock draft 2021, version 2.0
https://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/30930489/wnba-mock-draft-2021-version-20-texas-longhorns-charli-collier-projected-go-no-1-dallas-wings
Voepel seems to think like most people at least one trade involving Dallas is likely to happen, but in the meantime....
1. Dallas Wings: Charli Collier*, C, Texas
| Quote: |
| Considering her skill set, though, those bumps in the road are not really worrisome. |
I tend to agree.
2. Dallas Wings: Awak Kuier, PF, Finland
I know she’s on Dallas’ radar, but this could be the most expensive deferral ever. Will the Cambage experience make Bibb a little more gunshy on internationals. He paid an expensive price for Ndour who got used little.
3. Atlanta Dream: Dana Evans, PG, Louisville
Probably not a bad fit, but would this mean Cazorla is done in ATL? Kristy Wallace?
4. Indiana Fever: Rennia Davis, SF, Tennessee
I’m not sure what Indiana’s biggest need is right now, but I’m not quite sure that Davis is the best available here.
5. Dallas Wings: Natasha Mack, PF, Oklahoma State
One of the more under the radar players. She’s been consistent.
6. New York Liberty: Arella Guirantes, SG, Rutgers
Add another Rutgers player to the mix? Wouldn’t be my first choice but not a bad choice for NYL.
7. Dallas Wings: Michaela Onyenwere, SF, UCLA
| Quote: |
| So-called "tweeners" sometimes take longer to find the right path in the league, and some never do find it. |
Not sure who they’d move to add her. They seem committed to Thornton, who I have as a backup to AGray.
8. Chicago Sky: Aari McDonald, SG, Arizona
Wade did place emphasize on a backup PG. How fast can she get up to speed before the team can’t afford Sloot anymore?
9. Minnesota Lynx: Shakira Austin*, C, Ole Miss
I must admit, this would be intriguing, but I’m not sure she fits “the culture”. She attended 3 different high schools and 2 colleges, so I get a malcontent vibe. Also, she seems determined to become a Candace Parker type player no matter how lacking she is in Parker type skills.
10. Los Angeles Sparks: Jasmine Walker, PF, Alabama
I’m not seeing her as a first round pick. Root will probably disagree. 
11. Seattle Storm: Shyla Heal, PG, Australia
Now that there’s been some roster turnover, I’m not sure the Storm make another obligatory international potential deferral pick. They could do better here.
12. Las Vegas Aces: Evina Westbrook*, PG, UConn
It’s a possibility I suppose, but under the scenario that Dungee is still available? COME ON! I just talked about this yesterday.
13. Dallas Wings: Chelsea Dungee, SG, Arkansas
First rounder. Not sure what Voepel is not seeing since she doesn’t give explanations past first round.
14. Indiana Fever: Iliana Rupert, C, France
Here’s an example of why I get frustrated with the people who get paid to cover the WNBA, and their inability to keep up with the passionate amateurs. Las Vegas now owns this pick. This mock is new today. Does that change the pick? A deferral to Vegas might work, but Laimbeer isn’t exactly known for collecting them.
15. Atlanta Dream: Unique Thompson, PF, Auburn
Too high for my taste.
16. Chicago Sky: Lindsey Pulliam, SG, Northwestern
Regional pick
17. New York Liberty: Destiny Slocum, PG, Arkansas
Most under the radar PG prospect.
18. Seattle Storm: N'dea Jones, PF, Texas A&M
To me this is the more Plenette Pierson type of player that Reeve was looking for but didn’t get in Herbert Harrigan.
19. Indiana Fever: Mya Hollingshed, PF, Colorado
A little bit surprised to see her go this high in more than one mock. She definitely won’t play the 4 at the WNBA level unless it’s for NYL.
.....
22. Los Angeles Sparks: Kiana Williams, PG, Stanford
Potential bargain if she could actually stick with their roster. Might be tough with Cooper there.
24. Las Vegas Aces: Chelsey Perry, PF, UT Martin
Myrtle won’t be happy she’s down this low. I’m cool with it.
27. Atlanta Dream: Erin Boley, SF, Oregon
This is more like it. I couldn’t believe all the early mocks that had Boley as a first rounder. Reminds me of the mocks that had Pivec as a #6 pick last year.
29. New York Liberty: Tiana Mangakahia, PG, Syracuse
She’s been under the radar, maybe because Syracuse hasn’t really made a splash.
31. Indiana Fever: DiDi Richards, PG, Baylor
Pilight’s hairstyle algorithm has Richards going a lot higher than this, so I’m guessing he’s not happy with this. I think she’s either boom or bust. She’d have to show more offensive acumen at the next level to stick. Better start showing it now. I like her quickness for her size.
34. Los Angeles Sparks: Kysre Gondrezick, PG, West Virginia
THE DISREZPICK! 
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Last edited by Shades on 02/21/21 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mavcarter
#NATC
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 02/21/21 1:50 pm ::: |
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Again, I've barely seen Shyla Heal, so I'm not going to pretend I know her game. However, she is 5-6 and an international player. That's two strikes against her just to start with. She would need to be really athletic and/or super-skilled to get picked in the 1st Round. Heal does not look especially athletic to me, and her numbers while solid don't indicate super-skill. So, anyone who projects her into the 1st Round had better have seen her a lot and absolutely love her. Otherwise, on paper, the odds are really bad.
As a Liberty fan, I don't see Austin sliding past NY at #6. They need a post, and Shakira with her size, athleticism, and skill set is absolutely a Kolb/Hopkins style player. Conversely, I don't see Slocum as their type of player at all, nor can I imagine them taking two smallish point guards.
| Shades wrote: |
10. Los Angeles Sparks: Jasmine Walker, PF, Alabama
I’m not seeing her as a first round pick. Root will probably disagree. |
Again, just because I brought her up early as a player to watch doesn't make me her biggest fan. Walker has size and she can shoot. Those are two things that can get you into the first round. However, she looks a little soft to me and she's playing at a low profile school. So, there are some countervailing forces at work here. Nonetheless, all it takes is one GM or coach who loves you to be drafted early. If you're a coach who believes in your ability to develop players, then size and shooting ability are good starting points. I can definitely see some team liking Walker as a player they can mold.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 02/21/21 2:06 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| Again, I've barely seen Shyla Heal, so I'm not going to pretend I know her game. However, she is 5-6 and an international player. That's two strikes against her just to start with. She would need to be really athletic and/or super-skilled to get picked in the 1st Round. Heal does not look especially athletic to me, and her numbers while solid don't indicate super-skill. So, anyone who projects her into the 1st Round had better have seen her a lot and absolutely love her. Otherwise, on paper, the odds are really bad. |
I'm not going to pretend I've seen lots of Heal - I watched one game. But the counter-arguments to what you put there are a) she's Australian, a group that generally speaking show up pretty regularly to play in the WNBA (it's not like she's French), and b) the 'foreign' element means she's two years younger than most of the US prospects, key development years where younger players usually continue to improve. I wouldn't be hugely surprised to see her go late-1st. |
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blaase22
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
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| Posted: 02/21/21 3:28 pm ::: |
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| No way Dungee gets past the Lynx.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 02/21/21 5:15 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
I'm not going to pretend I've seen lots of Heal - I watched one game. But the counter-arguments to what you put there are a) she's Australian, a group that generally speaking show up pretty regularly to play in the WNBA (it's not like she's French), and b) the 'foreign' element means she's two years younger than most of the US prospects, key development years where younger players usually continue to improve. I wouldn't be hugely surprised to see her go late-1st. |
I guess in a roundabout way, I'm doing what you did a while back when you questioned how many of us who were putting Kuier in the first round had actually seen her play. I'm just skeptical about how much Voepel or anyone else who does mock drafts has watched Shyla Heal. I get the feeling that she's a name that got floated out there, and people started repeating it almost on a rumor level.
Yes, Australians are more reliable than other nationalities, but still not as reliable as Americans. When was the last time we saw an Australian return every year over a long period? Lauren Jackson who retired in 2012? Penny Taylor retired after 2016, but she missed a couple of seasons along the way. There is more attendance risk even with Australians.
As far as the extra two years of development goes, that's obviously an advantage, and I've mentioned it many times with Kuier. However, in Heal's case, her father is a prominent coach so she's been around the game all her life. As I recall, she turned pro at 14. Not that Shyla won't get better, but those extra years of development at a young age are not going to benefit her as much as someone who started playing basketball later in life.
I also believe the height issue is no small matter, especially in this draft, because there are two other top PG prospects who are 5-6: Dana Evans and Aari McDonald. The number of teams who are willing to select small guards with first round picks is probably limited.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 02/21/21 5:53 pm ::: |
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Yeah, most of that's fair. Although someone like Rebecca Allen showed up every year for a significant stretch until 2020, which was obviously truly extraordinary circumstances.
On a separate note, Shakira Austin was removed from that ESPN mock draft, and her bio on the Ole Miss site - https://olemisssports.com/sports/womens-basketball/roster/shakira-austin/2771 - now lists her birthdate as July 25 2000. So one draft option may be gone. |
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Luuuc
#NATC
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| Posted: 02/21/21 6:08 pm ::: |
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The recent WNBL Semi Final and Preliminary Final were pretty good showcases of what Heal can do these days. The Grand Final not so much.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see her taken in the 1st round.
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Shades
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| Posted: 02/21/21 6:09 pm ::: |
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Texas beat KSU today
Collier 21 pts (7-15, 0-2 3P, 7-11 FT), 14 reb (6 off), 1 ast, 4 TO, 1 stl, 1 blk in 39 min
Her defender was Ayoka Lee, a player on the Lisa Leslie semifinals list. She fouled out in 13 min. I guess that can be an effect Collier can have if the refs are calling fouls.
On another note, Boston only scored 4 pts today against Kentucky on 1-4 shooting and gathered up 11 reb. Is she no longer the presumptive #1 pick in 2023 because heaven forbid she isn’t dominant in every game? Trying to make a point here.
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