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Rock Hard
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root_thing
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 Posted: 09/09/20 12:46 am ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
Genuine question - have any of the people ranking Awak Kuier as some kind of lottery talent actually seen her play for more than about 30 seconds of Youtube clips? |
I have. There are some full games on YouTube -- mostly junior team stuff. However, there is at least one grown-up game (see below) against Belgium with Meesseman, Allemand, the Mestdaghs, etc.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4NL3VWpq-v8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
It really speaks to the fact that this looks like a very weak draft at the moment. For instance, I don't think Onyenwere is much better than her ex-teammates Billings and Burke who went in the 2nd Round. Like them, she is not a consistent jumphooter. On paper, Onyenwere is shorter than Billings by 4 inches, and she doesn't have the long arms or strength of Burke. As for Kuier, she does shoot occasional 3's, handles the ball a bit (look a behind-the-back dribble!) and is a smooth athlete who has enough hops to dunk with two hands. Are any of these reliable WNBA-level skills? No. Does she take advantage of her leaping ability on defense. Not really. Is she on the skinny side. Yes. But Kuier will have a runway at least two years longer than any American prospect. She's a high upside project. With no one in this draft looking anywhere near a sure thing, potential should be enough to get Kuier into the lottery.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 09/09/20 1:11 am ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
Genuine question - have any of the people ranking Awak Kuier as some kind of lottery talent actually seen her play for more than about 30 seconds of Youtube clips? |
I have. There are some full games on YouTube -- mostly junior team stuff. However, there is at least one grown-up game (see below) against Belgium with Meesseman, Allemand, the Mestdaghs, etc.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4NL3VWpq-v8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
It really speaks to the fact that this looks like a very weak draft at the moment. For instance, I don't think Onyenwere is much better than her ex-teammates Billings and Burke who went in the 2nd Round. Like them, she is not a consistent jumphooter. On paper, Onyenwere is shorter than Billings by 4 inches, and she doesn't have the long arms or strength of Burke. As for Kuier, she does shoot occasional 3's, handles the ball a bit (look a behind-the-back dribble!) and is a smooth athlete who has enough hops to dunk with two hands. Are any of these reliable WNBA-level skills? No. Does she take advantage of her leaping ability on defense. Not really. Is she on the skinny side. Yes. But Kuier will have a runway at least two years longer than any American prospect. She's a high upside project. With no one in this draft looking anywhere near a sure thing, potential should be enough to get Kuier into the lottery. |
Dallas will likely have the 4 and 5 pick (One is their pick the other is Washington's) as well as Chicago's pick which is looking like it will be 7 or 8, so Dallas can roll the dice on Kuier (whether she is a project or doesn't come over right away), and still make safe picks like Mack and Richards, and they even will have the 13 pick from NY.
Ogunbowale/Harris/Jefferson
Gray/Mabrey
Thorton/Richards
Sabally/Mack/Alarie
N'Dour/Kuier/(Harrison incase one of N'Dour or Kuier don't show in 21)
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 09/09/20 11:09 am ::: |
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Or NY could take Kuier and stash her overseas for a couple of years while they sort out their 17-player roster (not to mention potential free agents). I can't emphasize how much this draft is a crapshoot at the moment. Unless some players really step up this year (assuming we even have a college season), this has the potential to be like 2005 or 2003. Yes, a couple of selections will probably end up being good players, but they're as likely to be surprises as they are the top picks.
I was just thinking about the 2017 U19 gold medal game when Russia, led by Vadeeva and Musina, beat the US. Eight members of that losing team were drafted this year and are currently in the WNBA: Carter, Dangerfield, Harris, Sutton, Alarie, Hebard, Holmes, and Walker. Meanwhile, Musina has yet to crack a roster, although she would have had another chance with LVA if not for the cancellation of real training camp. It's just interesting to see the winding path that these young players have already taken, and there are probably more twists and turns ahead.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 09/09/20 12:03 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
Genuine question - have any of the people ranking Awak Kuier as some kind of lottery talent actually seen her play for more than about 30 seconds of Youtube clips? |
I have. There are some full games on YouTube -- mostly junior team stuff. However, there is at least one grown-up game (see below) against Belgium with Meesseman, Allemand, the Mestdaghs, etc.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4NL3VWpq-v8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
It really speaks to the fact that this looks like a very weak draft at the moment. For instance, I don't think Onyenwere is much better than her ex-teammates Billings and Burke who went in the 2nd Round. Like them, she is not a consistent jumphooter. On paper, Onyenwere is shorter than Billings by 4 inches, and she doesn't have the long arms or strength of Burke. As for Kuier, she does shoot occasional 3's, handles the ball a bit (look a behind-the-back dribble!) and is a smooth athlete who has enough hops to dunk with two hands. Are any of these reliable WNBA-level skills? No. Does she take advantage of her leaping ability on defense. Not really. Is she on the skinny side. Yes. But Kuier will have a runway at least two years longer than any American prospect. She's a high upside project. With no one in this draft looking anywhere near a sure thing, potential should be enough to get Kuier into the lottery. |
Fair enough, but wow that's a condemnation of this draft class. If you have the time I'd also take a look at Iliana Rupert, who's been playing at a much more meaningful level than Kuier for quite a while (maybe you have already). Outside of her being French, and that presumably meaning people think she might not show up, she currently seems more proven than Kuier. Maybe a more traditional big, which makes her less tantalising and exciting, but right now almost certainly the better player. |
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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| Posted: 09/09/20 12:14 pm ::: |
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| Ill Take Collier , and im sure she's already aware of her draft status as she has already made comments about the new money and how enticing early entry could be .
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root_thing
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| Posted: 09/09/20 2:27 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
| It really speaks to the fact that this looks like a very weak draft at the moment. For instance, I don't think Onyenwere is much better than her ex-teammates Billings and Burke who went in the 2nd Round. Like them, she is not a consistent jumphooter. On paper, Onyenwere is shorter than Billings by 4 inches, and she doesn't have the long arms or strength of Burke. As for Kuier, she does shoot occasional 3's, handles the ball a bit (look a behind-the-back dribble!) and is a smooth athlete who has enough hops to dunk with two hands. Are any of these reliable WNBA-level skills? No. Does she take advantage of her leaping ability on defense. Not really. Is she on the skinny side. Yes. But Kuier will have a runway at least two years longer than any American prospect. She's a high upside project. With no one in this draft looking anywhere near a sure thing, potential should be enough to get Kuier into the lottery. |
Fair enough, but wow that's a condemnation of this draft class. If you have the time I'd also take a look at Iliana Rupert, who's been playing at a much more meaningful level than Kuier for quite a while (maybe you have already). Outside of her being French, and that presumably meaning people think she might not show up, she currently seems more proven than Kuier. Maybe a more traditional big, which makes her less tantalising and exciting, but right now almost certainly the better player. |
I missed the boat on Rupert. She made a cameo appearance for Team France and looked pretty lost, but I wasn't aware she played so much for Bourges. I just watched a highlight video of Rupert, and yes you can throw her into the mix based on athletic ability. It's so hard to judge when a player's skills are clearly not fully developed and we're talking primarily about potential. Can I confidently say which is better -- Kuier or Rupert? Based on skill, no. However, Kuier is super-athletic, so for now I'm going by that -- and as you pointed out, the French don't tend to show up. Finland is not currently competitive, so that suggests Kuier is a more reliable bet... assuming she only comes over when the team is ready for her. 
The same uncertainty applies to Collier, who I have as the #1 overall pick if she comes out. However, I'm speculating based on Charli's pro-ready body and her ability to do a wide variety of things decently at the college level. She can score down low, shoot three's, and block shots, but probably not reliably enough so that we could count on them in the WNBA. Collier's most impressive stat is 10.5 rpg, which is a positive sign but not always meaningful. Looking at another player who came out early, Zahui had 12.9 rpg in her junior year. Obviously, Collier gets another season. But if rebounds alone were a good measure, note that Kristine Anigwe pulled down a whopping 16.2 boards per game as a senior. You can make the argument that Collier is a better athlete than Zahui, but that isn't the case compared to Anigwe. And just to confuse things more, Tina Charles only averaged 9.5 rpg as a college senior before leading the WNBA as a rookie with 11.7. But I digress. My point is this: even if Collier is the best prospect in this draft, she's still not what we normally think of as a #1 overall pick. Certainly not the type of consensus we had for A'ja Wilson, and nowhere near the Beanna Stewart level of acclaim.
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PickledGinger
Joined: 04 Oct 2013
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| Posted: 09/09/20 4:13 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
Genuine question - have any of the people ranking Awak Kuier as some kind of lottery talent actually seen her play for more than about 30 seconds of Youtube clips? |
Yes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm9f3QGxmaM
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Stormeo
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| Posted: 09/09/20 4:22 pm ::: |
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| WNBA teams better cross their t's & dot their i's with their international scouting by talking to these prospects and making sure that they actually have legitimate interest in coming to the States and playing in the W someday before using a 1st-round pick on them, let alone a lottery pick. I bet a team like Connecticut would (if they had one for 2021) - correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Astan Dabo has shown up to a single training camp since being drafted in 2012. (At least Alba Torrens was only a low-risk 3rd-rounder for the Sun a couple years prior.)
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root_thing
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 09/09/20 6:45 pm ::: |
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| Stormeo wrote: |
| WNBA teams better cross their t's & dot their i's with their international scouting by talking to these prospects and making sure that they actually have legitimate interest in coming to the States and playing in the W someday before using a 1st-round pick on them, let alone a lottery pick. I bet a team like Connecticut would (if they had one for 2021) - correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Astan Dabo has shown up to a single training camp since being drafted in 2012. (At least Alba Torrens was only a low-risk 3rd-rounder for the Sun a couple years prior.) |
For a more recent example, Julie Allemand was drafted in 2016 and just showed up this year.
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RP
Joined: 17 Jul 2010
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| Posted: 09/09/20 8:47 pm ::: |
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| Allemand is an example of why the risk is worth it in the later rounds. Raise your hand if you had her as the best point guard from that draft.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 09/09/20 9:42 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
Genuine question - have any of the people ranking Awak Kuier as some kind of lottery talent actually seen her play for more than about 30 seconds of Youtube clips? |
I have. There are some full games on YouTube -- mostly junior team stuff. However, there is at least one grown-up game (see below) against Belgium with Meesseman, Allemand, the Mestdaghs, etc.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4NL3VWpq-v8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
It really speaks to the fact that this looks like a very weak draft at the moment. For instance, I don't think Onyenwere is much better than her ex-teammates Billings and Burke who went in the 2nd Round. Like them, she is not a consistent jumphooter. On paper, Onyenwere is shorter than Billings by 4 inches, and she doesn't have the long arms or strength of Burke. As for Kuier, she does shoot occasional 3's, handles the ball a bit (look a behind-the-back dribble!) and is a smooth athlete who has enough hops to dunk with two hands. Are any of these reliable WNBA-level skills? No. Does she take advantage of her leaping ability on defense. Not really. Is she on the skinny side. Yes. But Kuier will have a runway at least two years longer than any American prospect. She's a high upside project. With no one in this draft looking anywhere near a sure thing, potential should be enough to get Kuier into the lottery. |
If teams/GMs had to redo those drafts Monique Billings and Kennedy Burke might not fall as low as they did. This season both are in the top 55 in scoring, and have both proven they can play in this league. As far as Michaela Onyenwere goes, I think her ability to play on the perimeter and not being a back to the basket undersized post player adds to her appeal. And her ability to rebound against bigger players that based on looks are stronger than her all adds to her plus side. Even looking at this past draft, I think Phoenix could have been a potential draft spot for her late in the 1st round and she would have fit in with the Mercury, especially because she doesn’t need to score to be effective, and with multiple shooters around her it opens up the middle for her to crash the boards.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 09/09/20 11:51 pm ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
If teams/GMs had to redo those drafts Monique Billings and Kennedy Burke might not fall as low as they did. |
Probably true, but it would move them up a few picks -- not all the way to lottery level. Billings went #15 and Burke #22. Let's move them up half a dozen slots to #9 and #16. Multiple people have suggested that Onyenwere should be the #1 overall pick. So, if someone who normally gets taken somewhere between 9 and 16 goes first overall, what does that say about the strength of the draft?
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Shades
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| Posted: 09/10/20 12:16 am ::: |
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2019
WAS 26-8
IND 13-21
DAL 10-24
NYL 10-24
ATL 8-26
2020
DAL 7-13
WAS* 6-13
ATL 6-14
IND 5-15
NYL 2-17
2019+2020
WAS* 32-21 (Can do no better than 4th best odds at #1 pick)
IND 18-36 (Can do no better than 3rd best odds of #1 pick)
DAL 17-37
ATL 14-40 (Current 2nd best odds of #1 pick)
NYL 12-41 (Current best odds of #1 pick)
Current lottery team
* WAS first round pick in 2021 owned by DAL in three-team Tina Charles trade.
Remaining games
DAL: CHI, NYL
WAS: LAS, NYL, ATL
IND: NYL, MIN
ATL: CON, WAS
NYL: IND, WAS, DAL
Fever officially out of the playoffs.
Three teams left battling for that one last playoff spot.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 09/10/20 9:38 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
If teams/GMs had to redo those drafts Monique Billings and Kennedy Burke might not fall as low as they did. |
Probably true, but it would move them up a few picks -- not all the way to lottery level. Billings went #15 and Burke #22. Let's move them up half a dozen slots to #9 and #16. Multiple people have suggested that Onyenwere should be the #1 overall pick. So, if someone who normally gets taken somewhere between 9 and 16 goes first overall, what does that say about the strength of the draft? |
I haven’t seen anything that has her going #1 and I don’t believe she is a #1 pick, I’ve seen her go as high as #4, and depending on the team, if she would be a fit (like I mentioned before with Phoenix), I could see a team taking her there as she probably won’t be around when they pick in the 2nd round. But unless that is the case I don’t see her being higher than mid 1st round.
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Shades
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| Posted: 09/11/20 1:43 am ::: |
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2019
WAS 26-8
IND 13-21
DAL 10-24
NYL 10-24
ATL 8-26
2020
DAL 7-13
WAS* 7-13
ATL 6-14
IND 6-15
NYL 2-18
2019+2020
WAS* 33-21 (Can do no better than 4th best odds at #1 pick)
IND 19-36 (Can do no better than 3rd best odds of #1 pick)
DAL 17-37
ATL 14-40 (Current 2nd best odds of #1 pick)
NYL 12-42 (Current best odds of #1 pick)
Current lottery team
* WAS first round pick in 2021 owned by DAL in three-team Tina Charles trade.
Remaining games
DAL: CHI, NYL
WAS: NYL, ATL
IND: MIN
ATL: CON, WAS
NYL: WAS, DAL
Still three teams left battling for that one last playoff spot.
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PickledGinger
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| Posted: 09/11/20 2:12 am ::: |
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This class is so weak that Charli Collier is being championed as the savior of the draft as an early declairer - when she's not even the #1 pick in her draft, if she were to stay.
But on the bright side, assuming Collier and Westbrook stay, here's who I've go for the 2022 Top 10. Y'all. It's pretty good.
Charlie Collier - 6-5 PF - Texas
Elissa Cunane - 6-5 C - NC State
Rhyne Howard - 6-2 SF - Kentucky
Lexie Hull - 6-0 SG - Stanford
Ashley Joens - 6-0 SF - Iowa State
Sika Kone - 6-3 PF - Nigeria
Olivia Nelson-Ododa - 6-5 C - UConn
NaLyssa Smith - 6-2 PF - Baylor
Evina Westbrook - 6-0 SG - UConn
Christyn Williams - 5-11 SG UConn
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DFWub2018
Joined: 24 Aug 2018
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Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth
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| Posted: 09/11/20 12:08 pm ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Ill Take Collier , and im sure she's already aware of her draft status as she has already made comments about the new money and how enticing early entry could be . |
I second this opinion 🤓
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 09/11/20 1:42 pm ::: |
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| PickledGinger wrote: |
This class is so weak that Charli Collier is being championed as the savior of the draft as an early declairer - when she's not even the #1 pick in her draft, if she were to stay.
But on the bright side, assuming Collier and Westbrook stay, here's who I've go for the 2022 Top 10. Y'all. It's pretty good.
Charlie Collier - 6-5 PF - Texas
Elissa Cunane - 6-5 C - NC State
Rhyne Howard - 6-2 SF - Kentucky
Lexie Hull - 6-0 SG - Stanford
Ashley Joens - 6-0 SF - Iowa State
Sika Kone - 6-3 PF - Nigeria
Olivia Nelson-Ododa - 6-5 C - UConn
NaLyssa Smith - 6-2 PF - Baylor
Evina Westbrook - 6-0 SG - UConn
Christyn Williams - 5-11 SG UConn |
Anyone else from this list eligible in 2021?
add Egbo, Green and Balogun to the list
Throw in some from this class who might be age eligible but have even more NCAA eligibility than this class but decide to just go pro in these crazy times like Austin or Prince?
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 09/11/20 1:49 pm ::: |
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| DFWub2018 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Ill Take Collier , and im sure she's already aware of her draft status as she has already made comments about the new money and how enticing early entry could be . |
I second this opinion 🤓 |
I know NY just got Ionescu but Dallas is way better off then NY atm, could we have one more #1 pick and draft Collier? Please! Thanks.
PS Dallas is probably a prime location for a major free agent acquisition next year. They have a nice core, a good coach, throw in one top shelf free agent and up to three high draft picks in 21 (4 (wash),5 and 7 (Chi) it looks like) and they will be contender-is.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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| Posted: 09/11/20 1:54 pm ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
| DFWub2018 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Ill Take Collier , and im sure she's already aware of her draft status as she has already made comments about the new money and how enticing early entry could be . |
I second this opinion 🤓 |
I know NY just got Ionescu but Dallas is way better off then NY atm, could we have one more #1 pick and draft Collier? Please! Thanks.
PS Dallas is probably a prime location for a major free agent acquisition next year. They have a nice core, a good coach, throw in one top shelf free agent and up to three high draft picks in 21 (4 (wash),5 and 7 (Chi) it looks like) and they will be contender-is. |
No! This is Ogunners team we need to work on keeping existing stars happy versus bringing in new ones to steal the spotlight.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 09/11/20 2:43 pm ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| J-Spoon wrote: |
| DFWub2018 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| Ill Take Collier , and im sure she's already aware of her draft status as she has already made comments about the new money and how enticing early entry could be . |
I second this opinion 🤓 |
I know NY just got Ionescu but Dallas is way better off then NY atm, could we have one more #1 pick and draft Collier? Please! Thanks.
PS Dallas is probably a prime location for a major free agent acquisition next year. They have a nice core, a good coach, throw in one top shelf free agent and up to three high draft picks in 21 (4 (wash),5 and 7 (Chi) it looks like) and they will be contender-is. |
No! This is Ogunners team we need to work on keeping existing stars happy versus bringing in new ones to steal the spotlight. |
IDK Wilson seems to be playing better with McCoughtry
The right star could bring Arike and Dallas to the next level
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PickledGinger
Joined: 04 Oct 2013
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| Posted: 09/11/20 3:16 pm ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
| Throw in some from this class who might be age eligible but have even more NCAA eligibility than this class but decide to just go pro in these crazy times like Austin or Prince? |
Assuming Shakira Austin doesn't get a transfer waiver, she will graduate with remaining eligibility. Other players who could potentially declare early in 2022 include Katlyn Gilbert, Ayoka Lee, Dara Mabrey, Izabella Nicoletti, Sedona Prince, Nyara Sabally.
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awhom111
Joined: 19 Nov 2014
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| Posted: 09/11/20 11:42 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| awhom111 wrote: |
| While thinking about a few other things, I learned that Juste Jocyte was born in the United States. Under current rules, that keeps her out of the WNBA until 2027 instead of being able to join in 2025 if she was born elsewhere. |
Which is so dumb. Really poorly written rule, that they've never bothered to rephrase through several CBAs. |
Now I am thinking about the alternate universe in which Sabally could have played in the WNBA two years earlier.
| PickledGinger wrote: |
This class is so weak that Charli Collier is being championed as the savior of the draft as an early declairer - when she's not even the #1 pick in her draft, if she were to stay.
But on the bright side, assuming Collier and Westbrook stay, here's who I've go for the 2022 Top 10. Y'all. It's pretty good.
Charlie Collier - 6-5 PF - Texas
Elissa Cunane - 6-5 C - NC State
Rhyne Howard - 6-2 SF - Kentucky
Lexie Hull - 6-0 SG - Stanford
Ashley Joens - 6-0 SF - Iowa State
Sika Kone - 6-3 PF - Nigeria
Olivia Nelson-Ododa - 6-5 C - UConn
NaLyssa Smith - 6-2 PF - Baylor
Evina Westbrook - 6-0 SG - UConn
Christyn Williams - 5-11 SG UConn |
Kone is from Mali. I am looking forward to see what she can accomplish in the top division this season. It looks like they are keeping most of the team that they had last season so she should get her chances.
Another interesting name for 2020 is NAIA Player of the Year Stephanie Soares. She was heavily recruited, so her college pick was her choice. We will she if Brazil gets to play any other national team games that showcase her between now and then. |
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