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Joe Biden vs. Donald Trump
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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 04/08/20 2:29 pm    ::: Joe Biden vs. Donald Trump Reply Reply with quote

So I'm not for engaging in the pandemic Trump bashing here on the board in this dire moment.

But here in this thread, I will certainly be participating (respectfully and without personally demeaning anyone with a different political viewpoint) in the Rebkell's brainstorming of how to best make sure that Donald J. Trump is relegated to one term in office.

And I'll reiterate what I've already stated. Hillary. Somehow, some way. The party should either convince Joe to step down at the convention, or demand that he make Hillary is running mate. I say this not because I like Hillary Clinton at this point. I definitely do not like Hillary Clinton at this point, centrist Democratic politics, the Democratic Party as it exists today, none of it.

But after four years of Trump, this country needs the kind of experience and depth of knowledge that both Clintons would bring back to the White House. It does not need junior senators or lower sitting behind the big desk in the Oval Office trying to figure out how to make things work. It would be better than Trump. But not nearly as good as the world and our country needs it to be. We need the government put back together again.

And I think that should be understood as the most critical function of the new chief executive and the most essential qualification requirement of anyone who might be in line to hold the office of President of the United States.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 2:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The key for Biden winning is Bernie Sanders. I've already seen a few Sanders supporters say on social media they won't vote now. Just as they did in 2016. Sanders needs to convince his Bernie Bros to vote for Biden. They're already trashing Biden on social media.



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cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 04/08/20 2:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fitting that you speak of a resurrection at this time. Surprised

However, I can't think of a better way to invigorate the MAGAmoronic base than that.

Also...just as in 2016, it's not about Bernie folks not voting. It's about the DNC's preferred candidate, this time Biden, gaining enough support to beat one of the least overall popular POTUS since polling began.

I have my doubts Biden will do it.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 2:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
The key for Biden winning is Bernie Sanders. I've already seen a few Sanders supporters say on social media they won't vote now. Just as they did in 2016. Sanders needs to convince his Bernie Bros to vote for Biden. They're already trashing Biden on social media.


The Green Party has been trending on social media and Howie Hawkins (the GP candidate) has gotten a lot of attention for stoking that flame.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 3:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
The key for Biden winning is Bernie Sanders.


Overstated.

toad455 wrote:
I've already seen a few Sanders supporters say on social media they won't vote now.


I’m more of an issues and competence person over a Trump must be dethroned person. If Biden doesn’t show great improvement, I might be iffy about voting. But that could be the recent sting of Sanders quitting talking.

toad455 wrote:
Just as they did in 2016.


Clinton deserves plenty of the blame herself. She assumed she was going to win and she ran a lazy campaign with fewer rallies than Trump, and she had a platform based on nothing... a platform similar to Biden’s of more Obama.

toad455 wrote:
Sanders needs to convince his Bernie Bros to vote for Biden.


Sanders needs to convince Biden to step down, but I suppose Sanders stepping down is an indication that’s not likely to happen.

toad455 wrote:
They're already trashing Biden on social media.


Who isn’t trashing him? Do you feel good about looking the other away on his sexual assault allegation? Seemed like legitimate allegation to me. Where are the standards, people?



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 3:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You know, I've said the Democratic establishment would prefer four more years of Donald Trump than to see progressive outsiders like Sanders or Warren take over THEIR party.

Well, thinking that what's good for the goose...

Maybe four more years of Trump is better than participating and actively endorsing and voting for more of the same from a Democratic Party that long ago abandoned its working class base while becoming the party of THE richest people on the planet.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 3:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If you are a rich, white, straight, Christian male, taking a stand on "principles" and anger at the establishment probably won't hurt you much. Hell, to be honest, you probably actually will be better off since all the policy over the next four years will be geared toward you. And, really, none of the damage that will be done will hit you directly.

And when I say "you", I include myself in this (though not really the "rich" part...but hell four more years of unabashed pandering and deregulation and I might actually qualify after the markets rebound).

I mean, who gives a fuck about the poor, the LGBTQ community, women, African Americans, Muslims, and other minorities as long as we get to burn it all down to the ground? Amirite?

Because let's be very clear about one thing in particular: the next four years will almost certainly see at least two more seats currently held by liberals on SCOTUS open up, and likely at least one conservative seat as well. So four years of a "fuck you" to the establishment is almost certainly decades of a "fuck you" to the less privileged.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 3:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Trump as a lame duck president does feel extra scary.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 5:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Pademic will help Biden a lot

1. Because of the way Trump is handling it (not bashing him just saying he is giving so much ammunition to the other side in his daily press conferences).

2. More importantly Biden can basically stay out of the public eye social distancing and communicate to his supporters through pre-recorded (with lots of edits and re-takes) Presidential looking messages as well as focus all his funds into advertising and social media campaigns run by other smarter, more savvy people.

He might even be able to escape *debates or at least really limit them

*with that said purely for the spectacle I would love to see a debate where both Biden and Trump are in remote locations and are allowed to speak extemporaneously uninterrupted for as long as they wish. They would both fall so far down the rabbit hole that an hour in (or less) they would be saying some really off the wall stuff.

The good news is if Biden and his handlers put together a really strong team behind him from the Vice President to the Cabinet to all his advisors he can be sort of a care taker President being the face of what the people behind him want to implement. If it is a good team, then the country should be in good shape even if Biden is sort of lame.

Unfortunately I still think Trump is going to win so I am preparing myself for the next six months for that eventuality so I am not Blind sided in November the way I was in 2016.


mercfan3



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 6:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:


The good news is if Biden and his handlers put together a really strong team behind him from the Vice President to the Cabinet to all his advisors he can be sort of a care taker President being the face of what the people behind him want to implement. If it is a good team, then the country should be in good shape even if Biden is sort of lame.

.


That's the only upside to Joe.

He's a mixed bag, and he shouldn't have run.

But he's worked with many good people - and he knows who they are. A strong team of the Clinton/Obama Admins mixed with the younger up and comers of the party would put the country in good hands.

I don't know if I'm going to be able to handle the Biden/Trump debates. Clinton ran circles around him. Biden..half the time I don't know what the heck he's saying.



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 10:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Because let's be very clear about one thing in particular: the next four years will almost certainly see at least two more seats currently held by liberals on SCOTUS open up, and likely at least one conservative seat as well. So four years of a "fuck you" to the establishment is almost certainly decades of a "fuck you" to the less privileged.


Exactly. It's not just about Biden himself, it's about the entire government that could be set up around him.

Listen, after he theoretically gets elected, if we as a general public want him impeached and removed from office for any sexual assault crimes, or if we really think he's on the cognitive decline and can build up a 25th Amendment case against him, then that's fine - because at least a Democrat VP would be waiting to take his place. People who are now threatening to abstain from voting in the General are missing such a bigger picture.

Also: the Senate. Did some people just stop caring about that? What good is a Blue Senate and Blue House if it's in conjunction with the current President? Good for TV, maybe, but I've had enough of this experimental soap opera that'll see a full four years on air.

Besides, it's not like Bernie Sanders doesn't already have an Heir to the Progressive/Democratic-Socialism throne - AOC isn't even 35 yet. She'll still be very young in a good way in 2028, and by then I'm guessing the Progressive movement will have only "progressed" further; it has only been progressing since Sanders first received national attention. But progress can take time (as those fighting for Civil Rights 55 or so years ago), and it does take time - especially in such a fool-filled country like this one. Rolling Eyes

Tl;dr: Vote Blue and figure the rest out, in that order



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 04/09/20 10:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Because let's be very clear about one thing in particular: the next four years will almost certainly see at least two more seats currently held by liberals on SCOTUS open up, and likely at least one conservative seat as well. So four years of a "fuck you" to the establishment is almost certainly decades of a "fuck you" to the less privileged.


Exactly. It's not just about Biden himself, it's about the entire government that could be set up around him.


That is what it should always be about. This is the most significant part of the president's job. They are basically the hiring manager for the most important organization in the world.


Genero36



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PostPosted: 04/09/20 11:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Please Biden. No Kamala Harris for VP!




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justintyme



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PostPosted: 04/09/20 12:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Genero36 wrote:
Please Biden. No Kamala Harris for VP!

I don't get the election math if he were to choose her.

A California Democrat that isn't progressive doesn't really win him any electoral votes that he wouldn't already have gotten.

He has a few different directions he could go, but honestly none of those seem to fit with Harris. He could go with a progressive VP pick to bridge the division in the party, or he could go with a moderate that has popular draw in regions where he needs to win votes: Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, and Florida. These are the states that are almost certainly going to decide this election. There are some other states that could potentially swing, but in reality, by the time those states swing one way or another the election is likely in blowout territory already.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 04/09/20 12:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Running mates don't matter



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Shades



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PostPosted: 04/09/20 1:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The DNCC isn’t going to want a progressive VP because there’s a real possibility that Biden doesn’t last very long. They’re going to want another corporate shill, like Klobachar or Buttigieg.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 04/09/20 1:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Re a Biden VP, he's publicly promised a woman, so I doubt he can retreat on that commitment. He's also sensibly said several times that the VP must be someone who is shovel ready to be president.

Since VP's are traditionally drawn from Congress or governerships, that doesn't really doesn't leave a lot of high profile female names for Biden.

A notable exception would be Hillary. Of course, she comes with a lot of baggage as well as experience, and would not fit the "much younger than old Joe" criterion that many pundits insist on.

Warren has a big name, less baggage than Hillary, may be acceptable to progressives, while also being less scary than socialist Bernie to middle America swing voters. However, she also has the age issue.

These trains of thought come back to Harris and Klobuchar. Harris is half black and from California, but Biden will win the black vote and California in any event against Trump.

Amy from the swing upper Midwest? She's uncharismatic and sort of a limp noodle, but so have been many VP's.
PUmatty



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PostPosted: 04/09/20 3:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Running mates don't matter


That's the correct answer.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 04/09/20 3:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
pilight wrote:
Running mates don't matter


That's the correct answer.


Matters to ME. Seriously matters. If anyone thinks that Biden picking Amy Klobuchar would generate the same excitement as him picking Elizabeth Warren then okay 👌.

And if you really don’t believe that there is a very good chance that Joe might not make it through even one term as president, then you are way more confident in him than I am. And if he can’t, who is VP will quite literally matter very VERY much to me, and to everyone else.

President Elizabeth Warren wouldn’t matter Wall St and the banks?

Okay. Rolling Eyes



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pilight



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PostPosted: 04/09/20 3:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You're going to vote for Biden regardless of who his running mate is. People vote the top of the ticket.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 04/09/20 4:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
pilight wrote:
Running mates don't matter


That's the correct answer.


Matters to ME. Seriously matters. If anyone thinks that Biden picking Amy Klobuchar would generate the same excitement as him picking Elizabeth Warren then okay 👌.

And if you really don’t believe that there is a very good chance that Joe might not make it through even one term as president, then you are way more confident in him than I am. And if he can’t, who is VP will quite literally matter very VERY much to me, and to everyone else.

President Elizabeth Warren wouldn’t matter Wall St and the banks?

Okay. Rolling Eyes


They don't matter electorally. People vote for a combination of the top of the ticket and party affinity.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 04/09/20 4:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
You're going to vote for Biden regardless of who his running mate is. People vote the top of the ticket.


You're talking about my vote. That's one person. On election day.

I'm talking about what would happen if Elizabeth Warren would become POTUS vs. Amy Klobuchar at some point in the next four years.

That wouldn't make a difference? I think it would make a BIG difference to a lot of people.

If Hillary had picked Bernie Sanders in 2016, as she should have given the excitement and support he had then, she would be president right now.

These are unique times in American politics. So believe what you want. I'll do the same.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 04/09/20 4:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
pilight wrote:
You're going to vote for Biden regardless of who his running mate is. People vote the top of the ticket.


You're talking about my vote. That's one person. On election day.

I'm talking about what would happen if Elizabeth Warren would become POTUS vs. Amy Klobuchar at some point in the next four years.

That wouldn't make a difference? I think it would make a BIG difference to a lot of people.

If Hillary had picked Bernie Sanders in 2016, as she should have given the excitement and support he had then, she would be president right now.

These are unique times in American politics. So believe what you want. I'll do the same.


Thanks. I will.


justintyme



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PostPosted: 04/09/20 4:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One of the big, glaring problems with choosing Warren, of course, is that it would almost certainly be conceding the Senate to the GOP.

Massachusetts' governor is a Republican and at least until they're able to complete a special election a Republican would be appointed. And then there is the fact that Massachusetts sometimes swings red in Senate elections, so there is no guarantee the special election goes in the Dem's favor even when it finally happens.

While the Senate is thought to be up for grabs in this next election, the electoral map is not super kind to the Democrats and it will already take a lot to make it happen. Losing even one seat like that makes it a near impossibility.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 04/09/20 5:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
pilight wrote:
You're going to vote for Biden regardless of who his running mate is. People vote the top of the ticket.


You're talking about my vote. That's one person. On election day.


That was the context of the discussion, what do potential running mates offer electorally. The answer for all of them is nothing. Nobody is going to vote based on who is chosen for an irrelevant position.



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