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bcdawg04
Joined: 12 Apr 2016 Posts: 562 Location: Seattle
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Posted: 04/20/20 7:52 pm ::: |
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Pippen was one of the most underrated players in league history, but those Bulls teams weren't deep. Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman won with a bunch of role players. Their centers were guys like Cartwright, Wennington, and Longley. They won with forwards like Horace Grant, Toni Kukoc, and Dickey Simpkins, and guards like Ron Harper, BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr, and John Paxson. Grant and Kerr were great players, but they didn't win together in Chicago.
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adamj95
Joined: 09 May 2014 Posts: 2301 Location: East Grand Forks, MN
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Posted: 04/20/20 7:54 pm ::: |
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To be fair, Maya was a rookie in 2011 and 2012 only in her second season. Maya followed up that 2012 finals performance with a near regular season MVP in 2013 and MVP season in 2014.
_________________ 4 time WNBA Champion, 3rd all time in Assists, Minnesota's own: LINDSAY WHALEN.
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lynxmania
Joined: 18 Feb 2011 Posts: 10697 Location: Minnesota
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Posted: 04/20/20 7:57 pm ::: |
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Luuuc wrote: |
Rodman wasn't part of the initial 3-peat |
That's not what plight state though.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 16346 Location: Chicago
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Posted: 04/20/20 8:19 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
Silky Johnson wrote: |
Maya Moore has got to be one of, maybe, two players in WNBA history with multiple rings, but not multiple Finals MVPs, that people would even think about fixing their lips to call the greatest. |
With Jackson and Swoopes the list might be three |
The only one without multiple league MVPs, then.
Catchings was better than Moore and played at that high level longer. It's not particularly close.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22470 Location: NJ
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Posted: 04/20/20 8:43 pm ::: |
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PUmatty wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
Silky Johnson wrote: |
Maya Moore has got to be one of, maybe, two players in WNBA history with multiple rings, but not multiple Finals MVPs, that people would even think about fixing their lips to call the greatest. |
With Jackson and Swoopes the list might be three |
The only one without multiple league MVPs, then.
Catchings was better than Moore and played at that high level longer. It's not particularly close. |
And Catchings won with less talent. Douglas was injured, Larkins was their starting center and the Fever won with a 8 player rotation.
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SpaceJunkie
Joined: 10 Sep 2012 Posts: 4241 Location: Minnesota
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Posted: 04/20/20 8:48 pm ::: |
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PUmatty wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
Silky Johnson wrote: |
Maya Moore has got to be one of, maybe, two players in WNBA history with multiple rings, but not multiple Finals MVPs, that people would even think about fixing their lips to call the greatest. |
With Jackson and Swoopes the list might be three |
The only one without multiple league MVPs, then.
Catchings was better than Moore and played at that high level longer. It's not particularly close. |
I voted overwhelmingly for Catchings too.
But Moore should've been MVP in 2013 and would've won Finals MVP in 2016 if they didn't blow it.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24326 Location: London
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Posted: 04/21/20 12:12 am ::: |
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Yeah, Maya's peak was very, very high, whatever consideration you're giving due to her teammates. Catchings wins primarily due to being so good for so freaking long. |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66773 Location: Where the action is
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21901
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Posted: 04/21/20 9:20 am ::: |
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Whoa, Catchings didn't even reach the final 4?
Ok this contest is officially trash
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3302
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Posted: 04/21/20 9:24 am ::: |
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Richyyy wrote: |
Yeah, Maya's peak was very, very high, whatever consideration you're giving due to her teammates. |
My unashamed #Hateocracy aside, I've never tried to claim that Maya Moore isn't great, merely that the degree of her greatness is in dispute, for reasons already stated.
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3302
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Posted: 04/21/20 9:25 am ::: |
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Luuuc wrote: |
Whoa, Catchings didn't even reach the final 4?
Ok this contest is officially trash |
I've been on the "This contest is trash" train since Vandersloot eliminated Yo Griffith. But definitely so, now.
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22470 Location: NJ
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Posted: 04/21/20 9:27 am ::: |
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Luuuc wrote: |
Whoa, Catchings didn't even reach the final 4?
Ok this contest is officially trash |
yeah, Catchings should have won. Probably more of a popularity contest as the casual fan would know Moore over Catchings.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 16346 Location: Chicago
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Posted: 04/21/20 9:31 am ::: |
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Luuuc wrote: |
Whoa, Catchings didn't even reach the final 4?
Ok this contest is officially trash |
Wait until this later today, when Sue Bird beats Lisa Leslie.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66773 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 04/21/20 9:51 am ::: |
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Between the recency bias and the UConn bias, the Bird over Leslie outcome seems inevitable
_________________ Let us not deceive ourselves. Our educational institutions have proven to be no bastions of democracy.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11105
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Posted: 04/21/20 9:55 am ::: |
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Recency bias rules ... few players were/are more popular than Tamika Catchings.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66773 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 04/21/20 6:07 pm ::: |
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Bird has opened up a pretty good lead
_________________ Let us not deceive ourselves. Our educational institutions have proven to be no bastions of democracy.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22470 Location: NJ
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Posted: 04/21/20 7:07 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
Bird has opened up a pretty good lead |
So the Final Four will be three UCONN players + Jackson? Moore vs. Bird & Jackson vs. Taurasi.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12493 Location: Dallas , Texas
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Posted: 04/21/20 7:21 pm ::: |
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It will end up with Taurasi vs Moore and i think Moore win will due to popularity.
_________________ 3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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Iluvacc
Joined: 11 Jun 2005 Posts: 4167
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Posted: 04/21/20 7:56 pm ::: |
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toad455 wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
Bird has opened up a pretty good lead |
So the Final Four will be three UCONN players + Jackson? Moore vs. Bird & Jackson vs. Taurasi. |
Something about this just doesn't sit right with me
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22470 Location: NJ
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Posted: 04/21/20 8:07 pm ::: |
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Iluvacc wrote: |
toad455 wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
Bird has opened up a pretty good lead |
So the Final Four will be three UCONN players + Jackson? Moore vs. Bird & Jackson vs. Taurasi. |
Something about this just doesn't sit right with me |
it should've been Catchings over Moore which would've set up a Taurasi vs. Catchings final.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 04/21/20 8:53 pm ::: |
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Luuuc wrote: |
Whoa, Catchings didn't even reach the final 4?
Ok this contest is officially trash |
I mean I'd buy that more if Maya wasn't seeded higher to begin with...
I voted for Catchings too, in fact I'm basically lockstep with spacejunkie on this one (which means we have to be right? Right?), but this isn't some huge travesty of an upset.
As Richyyy pointed out, Maya Moore for a good stretch of her career achieved a level of greatness that Catch never really scratched at. It's just that her career was so dang short compared to someone like Catch who played so long and so consistently at such an incredibly high level.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66773 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 04/21/20 9:15 pm ::: |
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justintyme wrote: |
Maya Moore for a good stretch of her career achieved a level of greatness that Catch never really scratched at. |
That is a ridiculous statement not supported by the evidence. Catchings' best seasons are better than Moore's best seasons. PER says so. Win Shares say so. Net +/- says so. MVP voting says so. The eye test says so.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24326 Location: London
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Posted: 04/21/20 9:19 pm ::: |
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justintyme wrote: |
As Richyyy pointed out, Maya Moore for a good stretch of her career achieved a level of greatness that Catch never really scratched at. |
Just to be clear, I definitely didn't say that. I said that Maya's peak was very, very high, and that the difference between them is created primarily by Catch's longevity. I don't think you have to go too far to argue that their peaks were at a similar level, especially considering Maya was never anything like the defensive force that Catchings was. |
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012 Posts: 8407 Location: Northfield, MN
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Posted: 04/22/20 1:49 am ::: |
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Richyyy wrote: |
justintyme wrote: |
As Richyyy pointed out, Maya Moore for a good stretch of her career achieved a level of greatness that Catch never really scratched at. |
Just to be clear, I definitely didn't say that. I said that Maya's peak was very, very high, and that the difference between them is created primarily by Catch's longevity. I don't think you have to go too far to argue that their peaks were at a similar level, especially considering Maya was never anything like the defensive force that Catchings was. |
My apologizes for misinterpreting what you were saying.
I agree that Maya was never the defensive force that Catchings was, but Catchings was never the offensive threat that Maya was. She wasn't leading the league in scoring or anything like that. In fact, the year she won the MVP people on this board were calling it the "lifetime achievement MVP" as she never had that one dominant season--it was just that every single one of her seasons were quietly outstanding.
And when we are talking GOAT, offense weighs much more heavily than defense. I didn't vote for Maya as I thought her short career weighed too heavily against her when compared to Catchings, but say Catchings moved on like I had hoped and took on someone like Diana Taurasi. That would have been an easy vote. Diana's offensive skillset is so much greater than Catchings, and is so much more efficient, that a vote in the other direction would just feel wrong.
And yet Maya, at her best, was comparable to Tauarsi on offense, and was a significantly better defender (with the big caveat that this level was only a couple years).
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