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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 12/18/20 7:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SARS caused South Korea and maybe Taiwan to be more prepared for this as it hit them back in 2004 and the government was criticized for a lack of preparedness. I was just talking to someone who mentioned how Taiwan is able to do very good contact tracing because they are prepared to look at all the cellphone data and see who was in close proximity to the person who was infected. I think South Korea can do that as well as I read that if someone was on a subway train they know who to contact from that train if the person tests positive. Although that could be some kind of slick electronic ticketing. We could do that too, but right now you have to download an app and allow it to track you and also voluntarily share that you just were infected and then it will be shared with other people who also have that app and show as having been near you.

But if you are going to do effective contact tracing you need to limit the virus getting into - and around - your country. Unfortunately the western epidemiologists don't seem to think that limiting travel is a good idea. I saw (can't find it on YouTube) Fauci argue with Lou Dobbs about whether we should ban travel with China. He finally conceded that "you could ban travel with one country, but you can't ban travel with all countries". That is not a "science" statement. It is not scientifically impossible to ban travel with all countries. Fauci is apparently speaking with regard to the economic ramifications. Something we don't need him to do. I also saw what I think was a Ted Talk (but I can't find it now) that was given around the time this virus hit. In it the speaker, who was an epidemiologist, says with regard to a pandemic that you can't ban travel because of the economic consequences. But again, that is not her call. At least as far as I am concerned. I don't want epidemiologists worrying about economic ramifications. Just talk about what needs to be done to stop the spread and let politicians decide if it is better to let it spread.

Fauci was also went against Trump in an unscientific manner. Fauci did not "follow the science". Back in mid March Trump was considering a domestic travel ban. The "science" showed - based on Chinese results with a domestic travel ban - that it was the way to go. And the virus only travels onboard a person. But Fauci was against it for an unstipulated reason. He had the same attitude that he held a few weeks later with regard to local restrictions - let's wait till things get worse before we do something to stop the spread.

Quote:
TS: So doctor Fauci, it's saturday morning in America (Feb 29, 2020). People are waking up right now with real concerns about this, they want to go to malls and movies, maybe the gym as well. Should we be changing our habits, and if so how?"

AF: No, right now, at this moment, there is no need to change anything you are doing on a day by day basis. Right now the risk is still low. But this could change. (medical science says it has to change - just "scientifically" look at China, or Italy, or Iran).


Would love to hear people say "Over 300,000 deaths, and that is all on Trump and Fauci".

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rh6ByuObVzc" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I hope with the next one people are more ready to shut down travel (or travel with forced quarantines) and seek out people with cases and both contact trace and force quarantines on those they came in contact with. We can use our military bases or setup "tent cities" in football stadiums and parks for the forced quarantines.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 13504
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 12/18/20 12:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
.... love to hear people say "Over 300,000 deaths, and that is all on Trump and Fauci".


You seem very intent on conflating the roles of these 2 men in this crisis as equivalent. Fine, view it as you wish. I'll never buy it, though, and neither will the majority of people who are objective. You always seem to forget that NO ONE could have anticipated this -- it was unprecedented in its scope and virulence -- so uncertainty and errors were axiomatic.

Did both men make errors? Definitely.

Did both men acknowledge their errors and walk back their mistakes as science revealed the newest evidence? NOOO. One of them STILL thinks it was all handled beautifully.

They do NOT deserve equal blame for their effects on this pandemic.

"We The People" are as much at fault as any leaders may be.



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justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 12/18/20 1:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Responsibility is a murky thing. Unless you can draw a direct causal link between someone's actions and the ultimate consequence, it becomes a lot of suggestions of "could've, would've, should've" and tenuous, unfalsifiable "theories" about how it would have been better/worse without that person's actions.

So saying Trump is "responsible" for 300,000 deaths is fairly nonsensical.

Rather, I would say that 300,000 Americans have died due to a crisis that occured under Trump's watch, and he has done an utterly shit job of leading us through it. Also, as a leader with a cult like following, he had a unique opportunity to get his base on board, to unify the country behind the science, to not make it political. Instead, he did the exact opposite and made mass buy-in to the tough but necessary actions we needed to take an impossiblity. As soon as COVID became a "Democratic Hoax" meant to destroy the economy and make sure he was a one term president, it became a badge of honor to defy the restrictions or in the case of some Ruby Red states, to refuse to enact what was needed.



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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 12/18/20 2:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
tfan wrote:
.... love to hear people say "Over 300,000 deaths, and that is all on Trump and Fauci".


You seem very intent on conflating the roles of these 2 men in this crisis as equivalent. Fine, view it as you wish. I'll never buy it, though, and neither will the majority of people who are objective. You always seem to forget that NO ONE could have anticipated this -- it was unprecedented in its scope and virulence -- so uncertainty and errors were axiomatic.

Did both men make errors? Definitely.

Did both men acknowledge their errors and walk back their mistakes as science revealed the newest evidence? NOOO. One of them STILL thinks it was all handled beautifully.

They do NOT deserve equal blame for their effects on this pandemic.

"We The People" are as much at fault as any leaders may be.


Yeah, I'm in agreement with pretty much all of this.

You know I think tfan is the Poster of the Year here just about every year. He tries to actually tell the truth and I won't expound on that because that's not the point of my response. But telling the truth flies in the face of current trends in political discourse and I'll leave it at that.

And this was an excellent post he made there... but yeah, I'm inclined to agree with what you're saying here. Although I don't care what Trump thinks and I don't... I don't know... I just don't take that into account in thinking about where we are now. My whole life is people who can't admit when they're wrong so you have to accept some of that.

My thing to you, Howee, is, read your post here again. Don't you think you're making the absolutely perfect case for the idea that it's really foolish to try to assert, and with authority, that we can definitively blame someone for this and that person is... fill in the blanks? It's not even just We the People, if you're meaning Americans. It's the Italians. The Brits. Forgetaboutit! Really REALLY bad year. No one's fault. Maybe we got caught with the wrong demagogue as president and 100K lives might have been saved if Hillary was in office. I don't know but I have to say that I sincerely doubt it. But it's certainly possible.



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 12/18/20 3:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Responsibility is a murky thing. Unless you can draw a direct causal link between someone's actions and the ultimate consequence, it becomes a lot of suggestions of "could've, would've, should've" and tenuous, unfalsifiable "theories" about how it would have been better/worse without that person's actions.

So saying Trump is "responsible" for 300,000 deaths is fairly nonsensical.

Rather, I would say that 300,000 Americans have died due to a crisis that occured under Trump's watch, and he has done an utterly shit job of leading us through it. Also, as a leader with a cult like following, he had a unique opportunity to get his base on board, to unify the country behind the science, to not make it political. Instead, he did the exact opposite and made mass buy-in to the tough but necessary actions we needed to take an impossiblity. As soon as COVID became a "Democratic Hoax" meant to destroy the economy and make sure he was a one term president, it became a badge of honor to defy the restrictions or in the case of some Ruby Red states, to refuse to enact what was needed.


Okay, so what's the excuse for Sapphire Blue New York and California? You want to talk about refusal to enact? New York just banned INDOOR dining THIS WEEK! lol. Can't you see and accept that people simply don't want to shut down, stay home, WEAR MASKS or distance themselves socially or physically from others and it has nothing to do with who is president?

Come on. I got a new neighbor next door. Just moved in this past weekend. 40 year old woman and her young daughter. There's something going on with the water I guess in the building. There's workers here trying to fix the problem and the elderly lady (86) upstairs is down here involving herself. Everyone has a mask on. Except the new neighbor. I've never seen her with a mask. She just walked past my window again as I typed this last sentence. Cute. But no mask.

Got another new neighbor upstairs. Young. Conceptual artist already with his own Wikipedia page. From New York upper crust artsy parents. You have to avoid this dude at all costs because he never wears a mask. I mean... this is what I see sitting on my couch, taking the garbage out into the alley. We can't take walks in Beverly Hills for the last 8 months because people are out walking and nobody is fucking wearing a mask.

No matter how hard you try to make this about Trump and his cult my eyes and my life's experience are telling me something much different about my fellow humans. Shocked



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 13504
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 12/18/20 3:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
....and that is all on Trump and Fauci".


jammerbirdi wrote:
He tries to actually tell the truth...


This is my most empirical argument here: tfan's quote here is NOT the truth. Best I can tell, he's the only person here who insists on giving Fauci equivalent blame, which is even more absurd than giving 45 ALL the blame.

Re: citing numbers foreign pandemic responses might give a bit of context by comparison, but I'm more inclined to consider our American response as the base of the debate here. Truth be told, if there ever might be a complete and accurate assessment of worldwide data for interpreting what worked well and what didn't, it'll probably be years in the making.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 12/18/20 3:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So no one is perfect and tfan is not the World Book Encyclopedias from the 1950s.

Do you REALLY want to compare emotional politicized overstatements made by tfan with YOURS, mine, or anyone else’s on this message board? He makes pilight look like Trotsky at Leningrad.




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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 13504
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 12/19/20 2:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Truth be told, if there ever might be a complete and accurate assessment of worldwide data for interpreting what worked well and what didn't, it'll probably be years in the making.


Orrrr....we could just look hard at unexpected places: a country smaller than Nebraska, with a population of 16 million, and only 375 covid deaths -- a country familiar with disease. This really points to the cultural element of fighting a pandemic.



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FrozenLVFan



Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: 12/19/20 12:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Howee wrote:
Truth be told, if there ever might be a complete and accurate assessment of worldwide data for interpreting what worked well and what didn't, it'll probably be years in the making.


Orrrr....we could just look hard at unexpected places: a country smaller than Nebraska, with a population of 16 million, and only 375 covid deaths -- a country familiar with disease. This really points to the cultural element of fighting a pandemic.



And if we had their same success, we'd have less than 8000 deaths.


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 62434
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 12/22/20 8:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There are a ton of contenders when it comes to "worst thing in the covid relief bill", given that it's a truly obscene barrel of pork, but my vote goes to this...

Quote:
The multitrillion-dollar package also includes a provision authored by Sen. Thom Tillis (R-NC) that would allow the Justice Department to charge businesses for felony copyright infringement if they intentionally stream copyrighted material online.


Yes, once the president signs this abomination it will be a felony to post a meme. They say it's aimed at companies, but it transparently is not. It specifically says "any person" and carries a penalty of up to 10 years in prison, something not applicable to a company.



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Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 12/23/20 2:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Yes, once the president signs this abomination it will be a felony to post a meme.


Oh, myyy.....I see a lotta fb posters lining up in court right now. Razz



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 12/23/20 4:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Yes, once the president signs this abomination it will be a felony to post a meme.





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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
FrozenLVFan



Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: 12/23/20 12:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
There are a ton of contenders when it comes to "worst thing in the covid relief bill", given that it's a truly obscene barrel of pork, but my vote goes to this...

Quote:
The multitrillion-dollar package also includes a provision authored by Sen. Thom Tillis (R-NC) that would allow the Justice Department to charge businesses for felony copyright infringement if they intentionally stream copyrighted material online.


Yes, once the president signs this abomination it will be a felony to post a meme. They say it's aimed at companies, but it transparently is not. It specifically says "any person" and carries a penalty of up to 10 years in prison, something not applicable to a company.


https://www.tillis.senate.gov/2020/12/tillis-releases-text-of-bipartisan-legislation-to-fight-illegal-streaming-by-criminal-organizations

The actual text is here.... https://www.tillis.senate.gov/services/files/A30B0C08-FB97-4F90-BB60-43283EB7AF35

"(b) PROHIBITED ACT.—It shall be unlawful to will-
fully, and for purposes of commercial advantage or private
financial gain, offer or provide to the public a digital
transmission service that—
‘‘(1) is primarily designed or provided for the
purpose of publicly performing works protected
under title 17 by means of a digital transmission
without the authority of the copyright owner or the
law;
‘‘(2) has no commercially significant purpose or
use other than to publicly perform works protected
under title 17 by means of a digital transmission
without the authority of the copyright owner or the
law; or
‘‘(3) is intentionally marketed by or at the di-
rection of that person to promote its use in publicly
performing works protected under title 17 by means
of a digital transmission without the authority of the
copyright owner or the law."


What we really need is a law to prohibit inserting, i.e. burying, any measure into a bill designed for another issue and purpose.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 12/23/20 1:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
What we really need is a law to prohibit inserting, i.e. burying, any measure into a bill designed for another issue and purpose.


No, no, NOOOO....just throw $$$ at "Us/We The People" , and you can legislate whatever you like!! Razz Laughing

It's not a new phenomenon, but who ever learns of this nefarious crap when we watched the kiddy videos on how "A Bill" is made?



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pilight



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PostPosted: 12/23/20 2:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Just for perspective, about 330 million people live in the USA. $600 each is less than $200 billion. The stimulus bill is over $900 billion. The vast majority of the money is going to special interests rather than the people.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 12/23/20 3:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:


It's not a new phenomenon, but who ever learns of this nefarious crap when we watched the kiddy videos on how "A Bill" is made?


Which was the actual nefarious crap.



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 12/23/20 6:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Washington D.C. pork inside the new COVID-19 stimulus bill

"President Trump reiterated his previous position that $600 was not nearly enough to help people, demanding instead $2000 individual payments. But mostly, the president railed against the other payments in the bill, many of which meant billions of dollars to foreign nations amid a pandemic and economic crisis at home in the U.S.

“A few months ago, Congress started negotiations on a new package to get urgently needed help to the American people. It’s taken forever,” Trump said from the White House. “However, the bill they are now planning to send back to my desk is much different than anticipated. It really is a disgrace.”

Trump noted the extraordinary length of the bill, which clocked in at an impressive 5,593 pages. He then listed his top expense grievances, including many to public institutions that have been closed during the pandemic.

“It’s called the COVID Relief Bill, but it has almost nothing to do with COVID,” Trump said. “This bill contains $85.5 million for assistance to Cambodia, $134 million to Burma, $1.3 billion for Egypt and the Egyptian military, which will go out and buy almost exclusively Russian military equipment. $25 million for democracy and gender programs in Pakistan, $505 million to Belize, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Panama. $40 million for the Kennedy Center in Washington, DC, which is not even open for business. $1 billion for the Smithsonian and an additional $154 million for the National Gallery of Art. Likewise, these facilities are essentially not open.”

Trump is not alone in his grievances. After Congress passed the bill and people had the opportunity to peruse its wide-ranging list of contents, many expressed their displeasure in being made to wait months for pandemic relief only to be awarded a small check and a plan to export billions of dollars overseas..."

https://katv.com/news/nation-world/the-washington-dc-pork-inside-the-new-covid-19-stimulus-bill

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55420366


J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 12/23/20 8:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Who knew that the one thing that could bring Republicans and Democrats together was the ability to exploit the pain and suffering of the American people to corruptly give billions of dollars to lobbyist, special interest, pet projects and foreign governments all while throwing their arms out patting themselves on the back?

It is almost as if everyone in power is a corrupt sociopath without a shred of common decency. drowning in hypocrisy and arrogance. It is almost as if the elite are using a deadly pandemic to shift even more power away from the people while the richest are laughing all the way to the bank. It is almost as if we just had an election that supposed to make us feel we are finally free of a tyrannical dictator only to find out that the whole system is so rotten that nothing is really going to change except the new/old people in power will be better at messaging and presentation that they will be able to do all the same corrupt crap without it being as obvious.

Many of us hate Trump for a myriad of good reason, but the real reason the political insiders hate him because of what he just did, he just put their shit in a spotlight and put them on blast.

Please do not get me wrong, I blame him too, I mean a man who can get huge amounts of republican senators and representatives to not even say that Joe Biden won this far after the elections because they are so scared shitless of him and his base certainly could of twisted their arm for 2000 dollar stimulus checks months ago. An also don't get me wrong I think Trump not signing the bill is less about altruism than screwing over everyone who won't help him stay in power and leaving a trail of scorched earth behind him while keeping himself popular and viable to keep screwing with everyone until he runs again in 2024, but in this case he ain't wrong.

This is why everyone hates the government and congress most of all. 300k + people are dead, millions of business are lost forever, millions of Americans lives and life savings have literally been lost while their jobs were made illegal all in the hopes that the people's sacrifice will save lives, but our lives do not matter. They fuck with us for months roadblocking themselves to prevent anyone being helped before the election and then they finally come together to help and this is what they do. I want to say UNBELIEVABLE but unfortunately it is TYPICAL. And except for our psyches being slightly gifted not having to see the orange monster that was a never ending SNL sketch without any jokes as our leader, and MSNBC ratings tanking because he is no longer around I don't think much else is going to change


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 12/23/20 9:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's not just congress, it's every layer of govt. My state got federal money for COVID assistance, and the state passed some of it along to towns. My tiny town is receiving around $80K, and they're using it to buy a dump truck and hiring a consultant to look at water mains or something like that. While those things are of some value to residents here, that's not what I'd call COVID aid. Then the town asks for private donations to pay for ambulance equipment, and the food pantries and senior center are begging for assistance.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 12/24/20 4:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One word for the last three posts.




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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 12/24/20 4:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Who here can handle 18 minutes of truth?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ApMiIL4blxc" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
pilight



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PostPosted: 12/24/20 9:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

$2000 to each of 330 million people STILL wouldn't add up to $900 billion. It would be less than $700 billion.



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mercfan3



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PostPosted: 12/24/20 9:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Americans doing the "both sides" dance, is what hurts us in the first place. The House passed bill after bill providing real support for the American people and state government (Funding for distributing vaccines, 2K checks per person, funding for schools, funding for unemployment).

The House consistently has to try and play ball with the Senate, because Mitch refuses to do anything positive for people..and then has to accept a shit sandwich because that's all the Senate will pass and it provides a little bit of relief for Americans. Stop blaming Pelosi for Mitch's bullshit. And given Biden's win, she was willing to accept a little bit of relief right now because she expects she'll be able to get more deals for people in the near future.

It's just lazy to blame everyone in congress. It leads to not ever punishing the people responsible because we blame the whole.

But here is the real story. Trump is mad at Mitch. Pelosi wanted to provide relief for Americans before the election. She was willing to negotiate. (At one point, they were even just leaving Mitch out of negotiations) Trump wanted to do so as well- rightly believing that if he passed out stimulus checks he'd have a better shot at winning. But Mitch convinced him otherwise. Mitch convinced him to slam through a Supreme Court justice - promising Trump would get his election win through the courts (which we all saw the breadcrumbs of that). And then Mitch didn't support Trump at all when push came to shove.

He's not exposing Congress' bullshit. He's embarrassing Mitch.

You can post what you want to about Pelosi, but Trump gave her a win-win situation.

1. Either the GOP follows suit behind Trump, and she gets the legislation she wants.

2. The GOP doesn't follow suit behind Trump, and she gets a political win.

Pelosi being the brilliant mind she is, called for a unanimous vote in the House (Knowing the GOP would fail) while a bill for 2k is waiting to go on Monday. So she gets two wins.


Donald doesn't care about anyone but himself - and he cares about loyalty. Mitch wasn't loyal. Pelosi was his adversary - and she would have helped him more than Mitch. In fact, if he gets real introspective..he'd realize had he listened to her the whole time, he probably wins the election. So he's handing out political gifts right now.

Allowing the GOP to be embarrassed
Giving her policies political support
telling his supporters to protest the Georgia vote..
Trashing McConnell to his party

This last bit of his presidency will be all about trying to give those who weren't loyal to him as many losses as he can - and rewarding those who were loyal to him. (Like a mob boss - notice all of the pardons for people who refused to cooperate with Mueller..none for those who did cooperate).

It'll be interesting to see what happens from here. But I suspect Mitch is about to have a rough month.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 12/24/20 12:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

nvm


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 12/24/20 1:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
$2000 to each of 330 million people STILL wouldn't add up to $900 billion. It would be less than $700 billion.


The Washington Post is ballparking it as $600 going to 150M American households. That’s only $90 billion. They don’t, of course, actually say that. What they’re calling it is a $900 billion dollar coronavirus relief bill. And that’s really why the American news media and especially the elite mainstream political press IS actually, as it turns out, the enemy of the people. Because their newsrooms are NOT a pilight-level numbers geek free zone. They got people who can do the math and have.

It is ALL a fucking charade. The whole damn thing.



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
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