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SCOTUS Ready to Overturn Roe??
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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 05/02/22 10:27 pm    ::: SCOTUS Ready to Overturn Roe?? Reply Reply with quote

If this draft is accurate, yes.

Quote:
"Roe was egregiously wrong from the start," Associate Justice Samuel Alito writes in the draft obtained by Politico. "We hold that Roe and Casey must be overruled."

Quote:
The stunning leak of a draft opinion, which USA TODAY could not independently verify, set off an unexpected firestorm around one of the nation's most divisive culture war issues and simultaneously raised questions about the court's deliberations and its ability to keep those discussions secret.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/05/02/abortion-leaked-opinion-court-considering-overturning-roe-v-wade/9623699002/



Quote:
“Will this institution survive the stench that this creates in the public perception that the Constitution and its reading are just political acts?” she asked Mississippi’s solicitor general. “I don’t see how it is possible.”

https://www.wane.com/top-stories/draft-ruling-shows-supreme-court-overturning-roe-v-wade-report/



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Youth Coach



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PostPosted: 05/03/22 6:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If this is true, it is simply tragic and another step towards the end of democracy.

The idea of women not having control over their own bodies is just an embarrassment of epic proportions.
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PostPosted: 05/03/22 7:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Youth Coach wrote:
If this is true, it is simply tragic and another step towards the end of democracy.


In a democracy these issues are settled by elected officials rather than unelected, unaccountable judges.

Quote:
The idea of women not having control over their own bodies is just an embarrassment of epic proportions.


That's putting it mildly.



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PostPosted: 05/03/22 7:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It will be interesting to see what this prompts Dems to do.

Will they try to increase the size of the court? Give the left the majority of justices? Pick justices that will overturn this decision? Then the right will increase the size of the court when they can to give themselves the majority. Then they overturn the decision that overturned the decision that overturned Roe?

Where will it end? When there are more justices members in Congress?



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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 05/03/22 7:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Living in Indiana, I find the timing of the leak interesting. Today is primary day here.

I doubt that little ol' Indiana's primary had anything to do with it, and I doubt that it will change any of the races here, but WOW if it does!!!



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PostPosted: 05/03/22 10:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Republicans have been telling us for years that they were doing this.


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 05/03/22 12:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Youth Coach wrote:
If this is true, it is simply tragic and another step towards the end of democracy.


In a democracy these issues are settled by elected officials rather than unelected, unaccountable judges.



Well, here you go. Be careful what you wish for. From Alito's draft...

Quote:
“We hold that Roe and Casey must be overruled,” he writes in the document, labeled as the “Opinion of the Court.” “It is time to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people’s elected representatives.”


For anyone who missed it, Oklahoma's elected officials have been busy lately. Both their House and Senate have passed, by wide margins, bills similar to Texas, which prohibit abortions after 6 weeks, with exceptions for rape/incest but only if the event was reported to law enforcement, and allowing private third parties to file a civil suit against anyone providing or abetting in an abortion. This may all be a moot point because earlier this year, Oklahoma's governor signed a bill making it illegal to perform an abortion with up to 10 years jail time. I can't imagine too many physicians will be doing abortions when the law takes effect in the summer.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/28/politics/oklahoma-heartbeat-act/index.html


threadkiller1201



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PostPosted: 05/03/22 3:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Interesting article....

"How Collins and Murkowski got the Trump justices’ Roe positions wrong"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/05/03/trump-justices-roe-collins/


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PostPosted: 05/03/22 3:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In my old age, one of my hobbies is reading the briefings and listening to the oral arguments in many of the Supreme Court cases each term.

The overruling of Roe/Casey by Dobbs was expected by me and other court watchers after the oral argument of Dobbs on December 1, and I predicted the death here the next day in the 2021 In Memoriam thread. The abortionist-opponents of the Mississippi law, which included the Biden DOJ, spent almost no time at oral argument trying to defend the original rationale behind Roe and Casey—probably because that rationale was so erroneous and Constitutionally flawed as to be indefensible—and spent almost their entire time at oral argument pushing strongly and repeatedly on stare decisis, the doctrine that precedents should (usually) be followed.

The leaked Alito opinion, which I read in its entirety last night and is surely genuine, is only a first draft dated February 10. The wording and even the voting could have changed since then and can change at any time until the official decision is publicly released. Yet, indications are that there are five votes to overrule (Alito, Thomas, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Barrett), with Roberts' position being unknown.

The result of an overruling would be that each state could decide on the legality, illegality, restrictions or non-restrictions on abortion via their state legislatures.

This is the first time someone has ever leaked a draft opinion from the Supreme Court. That is ethical Original Sin for whoever did it, but I'm not sure it's illegal. It may, however, cause great suspicion among the Justices and law clerks and affect the trust of their future working relationship horribly.
pilight



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PostPosted: 05/03/22 3:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
pilight wrote:
Youth Coach wrote:
If this is true, it is simply tragic and another step towards the end of democracy.


In a democracy these issues are settled by elected officials rather than unelected, unaccountable judges.



Well, here you go. Be careful what you wish for.


As I've said many times before, people care about results more than process. Lots of people have excused Roe's twisted reasoning because they prefer legalized abortion.

Jimmy Carter took office with supermajorities in both houses of congress. The Democrats could have passed federal legislation that would have taken this issue out of the courts for good while the decision was still fresh. Instead they let it rest on a paper thin SCOTUS majority that was a godsend for Republican fundraising and get-out-the-vote efforts for decades and ultimately collapsed because Ruth Bader Ginsburg didn't know when to retire.



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PostPosted: 05/03/22 6:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Chief Justice Roberts has confirmed the leak is genuine.


mercfan3



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PostPosted: 05/03/22 6:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
Republicans have been telling us for years that they were doing this.


It was all but a guarantee when Trump won. Then he put 3 justices on the court..

edit: One thing we are absolutely not doing is blaming RBG for this.



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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 05/03/22 7:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
Republicans have been telling us for years that they were doing this.


It was all but a guarantee when Trump won. Then he put 3 justices on the court..

edit: One thing we are absolutely not doing is blaming RBG for this.


Don't forget McConnell's role. If Obama had appointed four justices....



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 05/03/22 8:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
pilight wrote:
Youth Coach wrote:
If this is true, it is simply tragic and another step towards the end of democracy.


In a democracy these issues are settled by elected officials rather than unelected, unaccountable judges.



Well, here you go. Be careful what you wish for.


As I've said many times before, people care about results more than process. Lots of people have excused Roe's twisted reasoning because they prefer legalized abortion.


Spot on.

pilight wrote:
Jimmy Carter took office with supermajorities in both houses of congress. The Democrats could have passed federal legislation that would have taken this issue out of the courts for good while the decision was still fresh.


I'm not sure Congress has Constitutional authority to pass a national law giving a right to abortion or, on the other hand, prohibiting abortion. 10th Amendment issue.

Nevertheless, Congress may try. In fact, the Women's Health Protection Act, which legalizes abortion, was passed by the House in 2021 and failed in the Senate in late February on a 48-46 vote to end debate (60 votes being necessary).
pilight



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PostPosted: 05/03/22 9:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
pilight wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
pilight wrote:
Youth Coach wrote:
If this is true, it is simply tragic and another step towards the end of democracy.


In a democracy these issues are settled by elected officials rather than unelected, unaccountable judges.



Well, here you go. Be careful what you wish for.


As I've said many times before, people care about results more than process. Lots of people have excused Roe's twisted reasoning because they prefer legalized abortion.


Spot on.


It goes the other way too. Plenty of people accept the absurdity of Pierson v Ray and Harlow v Fitzgerald because they think qualified immunity for cops should exist.

Quote:
pilight wrote:
Jimmy Carter took office with supermajorities in both houses of congress. The Democrats could have passed federal legislation that would have taken this issue out of the courts for good while the decision was still fresh.


I'm not sure Congress has Constitutional authority to pass a national law giving a right to abortion or, on the other hand, prohibiting abortion. 10th Amendment issue.

Nevertheless, Congress may try. In fact, the Women's Health Protection Act, which legalizes abortion, was passed by the House in 2021 and failed in the Senate in late February on a 48-46 vote to end debate (60 votes being necessary).


If they'd done it 1977, with 8 of the 9 justices who decided Roe still on the bench, there's very little chance it would have been invalidated.



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PostPosted: 05/03/22 11:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
Amazon, Apple, and Citi are covering travel costs for employees seeking abortion in different states. Here's how companies are pushing back against increasing restrictions."

https://www.businessinsider.com/companies-offering-employees-support-for-abortion-roe-v-wade-2022-5


Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 05/04/22 7:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
Quote:
Amazon, Apple, and Citi are covering travel costs for employees seeking abortion in different states. Here's how companies are pushing back against increasing restrictions."

https://www.businessinsider.com/companies-offering-employees-support-for-abortion-roe-v-wade-2022-5


Now what about the women that don't work for large companies or are on the insurance policy of one of the large companies?

I've only lived in Indiana. What do you have to do to become a resident of a state? Can you "rent" a room somewhere for a couple of weeks, say that you are a resident, have an abortion, then move back to where you were previously living?

Could there be an organization that provides a place for women to 'move' to so that they can have assistance to "move" there and not be subject to the $10,000 bounty?



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mercfan3



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PostPosted: 05/04/22 7:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Roe V Wade followed precedent.

The right to privacy, applied to states by the due process clause of the 14th amendment, was established in Griswold, not Roe.

It was not policy creation by the court, it was interpretation (the correct one) that American citizens have both the right to privacy and bodily autonomy, written into the constitution.

This ruling will set a precedent to reverse many rights guaranteed by the court.

Abortion wasn’t controversial until we had an influx of Irish and Italian immigrants, and suddenly Protestants didn’t want Catholics to be the majority religion. It’s no different now. Hispanic women don’t have abortions, and those in power are afraid of a Hispanic majority, so they are creating a policy for forced birth.

And regardless, the ruling will violate then first amendment (applied to states by 14) through religious freedom. It directly conflicts with Judaism.



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PostPosted: 05/04/22 8:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
Quote:
Amazon, Apple, and Citi are covering travel costs for employees seeking abortion in different states. Here's how companies are pushing back against increasing restrictions."

https://www.businessinsider.com/companies-offering-employees-support-for-abortion-roe-v-wade-2022-5


Now what about the women that don't work for large companies or are on the insurance policy of one of the large companies?

I've only lived in Indiana. What do you have to do to become a resident of a state? Can you "rent" a room somewhere for a couple of weeks, say that you are a resident, have an abortion, then move back to where you were previously living?

Could there be an organization that provides a place for women to 'move' to so that they can have assistance to "move" there and not be subject to the $10,000 bounty?


I think states offering assistance to women needing an abortion aren’t requiring you be a resident.

There is a new Underground Railroad afoot.



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PostPosted: 05/04/22 9:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If Roe and Casey are overturned then it would be for the best. With regards to abortion, nothing really changes. We won't have to listen to the same question being asked over and over again during presidential debates any more, that's about it.

First of all, they would get the rule of law correct and leave it up to the will of the states. Most states will continue to allow abortions to continue.

There will be a small handful of states that will put forth measures to restrict them. For the women who live in those states, I'm seeing they will continue to have three options:
1) Get your abortion within 6 weeks of pregnancy
2) Be more vigilant in your sexual activities
3) Go to a state where you can get it done

The third option may come at little to no cost since the governor's office of California has signaled that the state may be willing to pay for your expenses to come over and get it done.

With regards to the states that choose a full-on ban, I can only imagine that if there is enough outrage over such a decision, the current regimes won't be in power for much longer.


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PostPosted: 05/04/22 9:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stonington_QB wrote:
There will be a small handful of states that will put forth measures to restrict them. For the women who live in those states, I'm seeing they will continue to have three options:
1) Get your abortion within 6 weeks of pregnancy
2) Be more vigilant in your sexual activities
3) Go to a state where you can get it done


Six weeks isn't going to be the rule in those states without Roe. It will no abortion, period.

The options will be
1) Be rich enough to have a doctor who will take care of it quietly
2) Go to an underground provider, who may or may not be qualified
3) Coathangers

Just like it was in the pre-Roe days



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PostPosted: 05/04/22 9:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Stonington_QB wrote:
There will be a small handful of states that will put forth measures to restrict them. For the women who live in those states, I'm seeing they will continue to have three options:
1) Get your abortion within 6 weeks of pregnancy
2) Be more vigilant in your sexual activities
3) Go to a state where you can get it done


Six weeks isn't going to be the rule in those states without Roe. It will no abortion, period.

The options will be
1) Be rich enough to have a doctor who will take care of it quietly
2) Go to an underground provider, who may or may not be qualified
3) Coathangers

Just like it was in the pre-Roe days


The 6 week rule will happen. Even in states like Texas, Oklahoma and Florida. It's written already. Eventually it will just be legal in all 50 states, and I imagine it will be sooner than marijuana will.


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PostPosted: 05/04/22 10:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stonington_QB wrote:
pilight wrote:
Stonington_QB wrote:
There will be a small handful of states that will put forth measures to restrict them. For the women who live in those states, I'm seeing they will continue to have three options:
1) Get your abortion within 6 weeks of pregnancy
2) Be more vigilant in your sexual activities
3) Go to a state where you can get it done


Six weeks isn't going to be the rule in those states without Roe. It will no abortion, period.

The options will be
1) Be rich enough to have a doctor who will take care of it quietly
2) Go to an underground provider, who may or may not be qualified
3) Coathangers

Just like it was in the pre-Roe days


The 6 week rule will happen. Even in states like Texas, Oklahoma and Florida. It's written already. Eventually it will just be legal in all 50 states, and I imagine it will be sooner than marijuana will.


Eventually, sure. That's of little comfort to the women who will suffer needlessly in the meantime.



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PostPosted: 05/04/22 11:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Eventually, sure. That's of little comfort to the women who will suffer needlessly in the meantime.

What do you suggest we do then? Keep a controversial ruling going forever? How long will this transitional period take, really? If Roe vs Wade had been decided correctly from the get-go, this would have all been ironed out by now. At most there will be a negligible transition period or a minor inconvenience for some people in a number of states. Because let's be real, some people in positions of power (and some who are not) will bend over backwards to help them. I would have thought you'd be happy to see some of the levers of power moved away from the federal government and over to the local level, where they are probably just going to allow it anyways.


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PostPosted: 05/04/22 2:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stonington_QB wrote:
pilight wrote:
Eventually, sure. That's of little comfort to the women who will suffer needlessly in the meantime.

What do you suggest we do then? Keep a controversial ruling going forever? How long will this transitional period take, really? If Roe vs Wade had been decided correctly from the get-go, this would have all been ironed out by now. At most there will be a negligible transition period or a minor inconvenience for some people in a number of states. Because let's be real, some people in positions of power (and some who are not) will bend over backwards to help them. I would have thought you'd be happy to see some of the levers of power moved away from the federal government and over to the local level, where they are probably just going to allow it anyways.


Government shouldn't be legislating this at any level. People's personal health decisions should not be within government purview.



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