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pilight



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PostPosted: 06/03/20 7:22 am    ::: How to reform the police Reply Reply with quote

Seen lots of complaints, but little in the way of concrete suggestions on what to do about the police. They may be a necessary evil, but they are necessary. So here's a thread in which to stop cursing the darkness and instead find a light switch. I'll even get the ball rolling...

Eliminate qualified immunity for cops. Make them liable when they overstep their authority.

Strictly limit the use of SWAT teams. They should be used only when such force is necessary to defuse an already violent situation; that is, unless police intervene, there is an immediate threat of further loss of life. That's really the only scenario under which you can justify using tactics that have proven over the years to themselves carry a not insignificant risk of taking innocent lives.

End the militarization of the police force. No more no knock tactics, no more smashing down doors to say hello. No nighttime raids, no shooting through windows, no murdering dogs. Focus on de-escalation.

End the culture of silence. Transparency in all dealings. Cops whose body cameras "malfunction" can be gone. Cops who stand by quietly, go. No one needs them.

Train in methods other than the use of force. Train them that force is a last resort, train them in non-violent methods. The last thing cops need to be doing is reaching for handcuffs, not the first. Train in communication, establishing trust, and openness. And hold them to that.

Ban knee holds and choke holds as acceptable practice.

Adopt the Use of Force Continuum for every police department in the country. Ensure there are at least six levels of steps with clear rules on escalation.

Require each state's Open Records Act does not shield officer misconduct information and disciplinary histories from the public.

Deny recertification credentials for officers if it's determined their use of force was unwarranted under federal guidelines.

Implement Citizen Review Boards to hold police accountable and build public confidence.

Require accreditation of all police academies and independently monitored examinations before certification as an officer.

Return to the Peelian Principles under which police forces were first formed.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 06/04/20 10:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

End the 1033 program and prohibit the transfer of military equipment to police.



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cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 06/05/20 11:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

V. good start, imo.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 06/05/20 11:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stop using run-of-the-mill police as a catch-all to respond to all situations.

A call comes in about a mental health crisis? Dispatch mental health experts. Drugs? Addiction specialists. If it is a smaller community where this might not be realistic, then at least have specific units that have extensive training that are detailed to these cases that take the calls.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 06/05/20 12:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not actually suggesting this because I don't pretend to have an answer of how you fight crime and keep criminal activity in check and citizens safe while turning your police into an entity that does not occasionally cross over and kill or harm citizens or violate civil rights, etc.

But if you were more concerned with citizen's rights and protecting people FROM the cops you might want to start screening out the type of guys who are in it for the sense of power that is provided to them by the badge and the weaponry. That's a sort of banal way of putting it. If you've lived in this world you surely have known a certain type. A little weird. Funky attitudes about militarism and weapons of war. Overly patriotic. Humorless or a bit of a bully. Or just an aggressive macho manly male type. I think we have always valued those guys for law enforcement jobs because they're sort of like fighting fire with fire. If the bad guys are bad asses then what are you going to do against them with milquetoast types, etc.

I think this is something that we should strive toward. The problem is that these are largely the types who seek out careers in law enforcement. Most of them aren't going to be kneelers and huggers.

A lot of cops, quite frankly, might actually be more well suited psychologically for being violent criminals. So weeding those people out of law enforcement, IMO, is essential to moving the police towards more just and less harmful behaviors towards citizens.

But then you have to rewrite the rules of engagement from the ground up. One of the things that we see over and over again is citizens disobeying the instructions of responding officers. I would call that critical point number one in most situations that end up with bad outcomes. So if that's going to continue to happen, and it appears that political perspectives on this are clearly changing, then we have to design a law enforcement response that doesn't end up with citizens getting killed. De-escalation, etc.

And then we have to see how that all works in terms of crime numbers and the impact on public safety, etc. Letting people disobey police officers in tense situations would be a brand new world. But along with all these other reforms as well as doing a much better job of holding officers accountable for bad behaviors, there's going to have to be a focus on this critical question of what officers are trained to do when suspects refuse to comply with orders like putting their hands behind their backs, getting down on the ground, moving from somewhere they're not supposed to be, what to do when they run, etc. George Floyd's murder aside, that is the critical moment that leads to so many bad outcomes.

What do you do with those people?



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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 06/05/20 12:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
...But then you have to rewrite the rules of engagement from the ground up. One of the things that we see over and over again is citizens disobeying the instructions of responding officers. I would call that critical point number one in most situations that end up with bad outcomes. So if that's going to continue to happen, and it appears that political perspectives on this are clearly changing, then we have to design a law enforcement response that doesn't end up with citizens getting killed. De-escalation, etc.

And then we have to see how that all works in terms of crime numbers and the impact on public safety, etc. Letting people disobey police officers in tense situations would be a brand new world. But along with all these other reforms as well as doing a much better job of holding officers accountable for bad behaviors, there's going to have to be a focus on this critical question of what officers are trained to do when suspects refuse to comply with orders like putting their hands behind their backs, getting down on the ground, moving from somewhere they're not supposed to be, what to do when they run, etc. George Floyd's murder aside, that is the critical moment that leads to so many bad outcomes...


A big factor here is drug and alcohol abuse leading to non-cooperation and belligerence, escalating the situation. Solve the substance abuse problem, and you'll solve not only primary "drug crimes" (trafficking, stealing to buy drugs, etc), but also decrease property and violent crimes, and de-escalate confrontations with police.


Genero36



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PostPosted: 06/05/20 5:44 pm    ::: Re: How to reform the police Reply Reply with quote



Quote:
The officers resigned from the emergency unit but not from the force, according to police.

"Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders," Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans told WGRZ on Friday. WKBW also reported news of the resignations.

The man's identity, Martin Gugino, was confirmed by Cuomo's office. Gugino is hospitalized in serious but stable condition, authorities said.


https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/05/us/buffalo-police-suspension-shoving-man-trnd/index.html




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tfan



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PostPosted: 06/06/20 12:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The police, unlike Andy Griffith, are apparently trained that when they shoot, they shoot to kill. Right in the chest at heart level. I first became aware of this decades ago when 3 officers surrounded a woman who had been walking around a supermarket holding a cat saying she was going to kill it. Obviously mentally disturbed. Three guys should have been able to disarm her, particularly with a baton from behind, but short of that they could shoot her in the leg and then disarm her. But she got multiple bullets to the chest. I have since seen other examples of that - fatally shooting someone not holding a gun. When they tell you to drop the knife, it is drop it or die, not drop it or get shot in the leg. Don't agree with that. But in an online discussion about that someone claimed they have to go for the chest so there is no ricochet if they go for the smaller leg and miss. But they also have tasers.

But from watching Cops episodes, cops have a different mode when someone resists arrest. They will take lip and attitude up until they tell you to do something. And if you refuse they are not happy. And it would be hard to find people that want to deal with every law breaker including hardened criminals and also who will be nice to people when they resist arrest.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 06/06/20 2:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
The police, unlike Andy Griffith, are apparently trained that when they shoot, they shoot to kill. Right in the chest at heart level. I first became aware of this decades ago when 3 officers surrounded a woman who had been walking around a supermarket holding a cat saying she was going to kill it. Obviously mentally disturbed. Three guys should have been able to disarm her, particularly with a baton from behind, but short of that they could shoot her in the leg and then disarm her. But she got multiple bullets to the chest. I have since seen other examples of that - fatally shooting someone not holding a gun. When they tell you to drop the knife, it is drop it or die, not drop it or get shot in the leg. Don't agree with that. But in an online discussion about that someone claimed they have to go for the chest so there is no ricochet if they go for the smaller leg and miss. But they also have tasers.

But from watching Cops episodes, cops have a different mode when someone resists arrest. They will take lip and attitude up until they tell you to do something. And if you refuse they are not happy. And it would be hard to find people that want to deal with every law breaker including hardened criminals and also who will be nice to people when they resist arrest.


As I've said before, a long time ago I made a website about ridiculous LAPD shootings of black people here in LA. Made it in Dreamweaver. Very proud of that site but it was very simple. Just one page I think. Had four cases and then it had a comment, tfan, and I went into the policies of engagement. Man I hated the fucking police then. But I targeted shooting to kill as a policy that should be completely thrown on the dustbin of history except in the case of a suspect armed with a firearm. Shooting for the legs or the arms is more dangerous in a crowded city but we need to give cops the option of shooting at extremities instead of body mass.

But your second point is also very well taken. It is going to be very very hard to find people who want to be cops after this no matter what. The more difficult you make their interactions with citizens, the more you empower people to mouth off with and disregard or disobey instructions from police officers, you're going to see even fewer good people wanting to be cops. This is an ugly situation in our country right now. It's hard to see how this is going to work out in a way that makes anyone happy.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 06/06/20 10:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
tfan wrote:
The police, unlike Andy Griffith, are apparently trained that when they shoot, they shoot to kill. Right in the chest at heart level. I first became aware of this decades ago when 3 officers surrounded a woman who had been walking around a supermarket holding a cat saying she was going to kill it. Obviously mentally disturbed. Three guys should have been able to disarm her, particularly with a baton from behind, but short of that they could shoot her in the leg and then disarm her. But she got multiple bullets to the chest. I have since seen other examples of that - fatally shooting someone not holding a gun. When they tell you to drop the knife, it is drop it or die, not drop it or get shot in the leg. Don't agree with that. But in an online discussion about that someone claimed they have to go for the chest so there is no ricochet if they go for the smaller leg and miss. But they also have tasers.

But from watching Cops episodes, cops have a different mode when someone resists arrest. They will take lip and attitude up until they tell you to do something. And if you refuse they are not happy. And it would be hard to find people that want to deal with every law breaker including hardened criminals and also who will be nice to people when they resist arrest.


As I've said before, a long time ago I made a website about ridiculous LAPD shootings of black people here in LA. Made it in Dreamweaver. Very proud of that site but it was very simple. Just one page I think. Had four cases and then it had a comment, tfan, and I went into the policies of engagement. Man I hated the fucking police then. But I targeted shooting to kill as a policy that should be completely thrown on the dustbin of history except in the case of a suspect armed with a firearm. Shooting for the legs or the arms is more dangerous in a crowded city but we need to give cops the option of shooting at extremities instead of body mass.


The idea of "only shooting to kill" is one of those that is actually grounded in strong logic, but had been perverted in actual practice.

The idea is simple: the reason you shoot to kill is that the only reason you should be shooting someone is because it is the last desperate choice to be made to protect yourself and others. You are shooting them because to not do so in that moment means the death of someone else. So the reason you don't shoot arms or legs is because if the threat isn't so severe and so immediate that you have the time and the ability to consider such an option, you have no business shooting the person in the first place.

How this has been perverted is that the bar for what constitutes "imminent threat" to another has been lowered so badly that we are left wondering about why they couldn't just shoot to maim and end a potentially dangerous situation rather than them immediately going to the kill shot.

Potentially and imminently have gotten all twisted up so that they now basically mean whatever the cop says they mean after the fact.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 06/06/20 11:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Because those who write those policies completely overestimate the viability of the process of writing some code and having it dependably run through the human mind, almost invariably not nearly as intelligent or as composed as the cool thinkers devising these protocols, with adrenaline flowing because of the imminent threat of one's own violent death, after being mulled over in ten thousand squad cars and locker rooms by the guys and gals who actually have to accept these ideas. Shooting at other things is a better real-world option. Sometimes. An option. That's all I'm saying. Again, I'm not hopeful that every last unwarranted fatal shooting of black men or women or any other ethnicity is ever going to be possible. From the days I made my website, we've come a long long way in the LAPD from those common horror stories. So progress has been proven to be possible. And I think that's all we can hope for. A lot of Americans are going to want no let up at all on criminal behavior and I believe they and not these protesters are going to be in the driver's seat on these things.



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PostPosted: 06/06/20 12:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I grew up out in the sticks, literally. People here own guns and hunt and fish to put food on the table. I've done target shooting off and on since I was a kid. It's pretty damn hard to hit something the size of an arm or leg if it's moving, and I doubt most of the threatening law breakers are standing still. If the first shot doesn't put him/her down on the ground, somebody else is likely to get hurt too, either the police officer or a bystander from a stray bullet. "Shooting to maim" is not as easy as it sounds. However, I've never seen the point of 6 cops unloading their weapon on someone, particularly after he's already on the ground.


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PostPosted: 06/06/20 5:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote




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Luuuc



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PostPosted: 06/06/20 9:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Genero36 wrote:

Exactly.

But until things change from the top down, all 57 replacements will be subject to the same indoctrination, coercion, and lack of standards/accountability that leads to so many shitty officers being churned out and having long and "distinguished" careers today.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 06/07/20 10:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
End the 1033 program and prohibit the transfer of military equipment to police.


I'm not up on exactly what the 1033 program entails, but watching the terrorist attack here in San Bernardino unfold live on television in 2015 forever changed my mind about local police forces acquiring military equipment. One of the things that had me so opposed to this prior to that and other incidents taking place was the process and methods used by local police departments to enable them to purchase these military armaments and the weaponry and that was some really problematic asset forfeiture practices that had gotten a foothold out in the country and were really one of the worst of any recent trends in law enforcement than I can remember in years.

And we had a big thread here where I think I got real deep into this. Might have been the Hell in a Handbasket thread. I don't know for sure.

So I'm no longer opposed to this in most or many cases. Can it and will it be excessive in many cases and something that the consensus of Americans would have a big problem with? Yes. I don't know the answer to that other than governors doing the job of regulating to what extent cities and municipalities go down this road and maybe the federal government monitoring the states' efforts in that area. But we don't live in a world now where we can predict when and where bad guys who are armed themselves with advanced military weapons and armaments aren't going to present themselves in an attack on innocent people. We've now seen it. There's almost no excuse for police departments not to be prepared for it.



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Smoovie



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PostPosted: 06/07/20 6:44 pm    ::: Re: How to reform the police Reply Reply with quote

Genero36 wrote:


Quote:
The officers resigned from the emergency unit but not from the force, according to police.

"Fifty-seven resigned in disgust because of the treatment of two of their members, who were simply executing orders," Buffalo Police Benevolent Association president John Evans told WGRZ on Friday. WKBW also reported news of the resignations.

The man's identity, Martin Gugino, was confirmed by Cuomo's office. Gugino is hospitalized in serious but stable condition, authorities said.


https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/05/us/buffalo-police-suspension-shoving-man-trnd/index.html



The Buffalo police officers that pushed a 75-year-old man to the ground and busting his head were applauded by their colleagues as they left the courthouse.
This is is why former Buffalo police officer Cariol Holloman-Horne didn't stand a chance in that police department and city when she crossed the blue line to STOP her fellow officer from choking a handcuffed man.
You Cariol Holloman-Horne are a true America Hero.
This is an example of why many of the good cops don't do the right thing and stand up against bad policy.
Know HER story https://laprogressive.com/officer-cariol-horne-denied-pension

She is still fighting to get her pension
https://www.change.org/p/nys-comptroller-thomas-p-dinapoli-support-former-buffaloe-police-officer-cariol-horne-to-receive-her-pension-a7acf769-f001-4a37-8fcc-558023abc33a



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Genero36



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PostPosted: 06/07/20 7:05 pm    ::: Re: How to reform the police Reply Reply with quote

De Blasio Vows for First Time to Cut Funding for the N.Y.P.D.

Quote:
The mayor on Sunday declined to say precisely how much funding he planned to divert to social services from the New York Police Department, which has an annual budget of $6 billion, representing more than 6 percent of Mr. de Blasio’s proposed $90 billion budget.

Mr. de Blasio said the details would be worked out with the City Council in advance of the July 1 budget deadline.

“We’re committed to seeing a shift of funding to youth services, to social services, that will happen literally in the course of the next three weeks, but I’m not going to go into detail because it is subject to negotiation and we want to figure out what makes sense,” Mr. de Blasio said.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/de-blasio-vows-for-first-time-to-cut-funding-for-the-nypd/ar-BB15afBy?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout



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Genero36



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PostPosted: 06/07/20 7:06 pm    ::: Re: How to reform the police Reply Reply with quote

Minneapolis City Council announces intent to disband police department

Quote:
City Council members said they will invest in community-led safety initiatives instead of the police department.

"Our commitment is to end our city’s toxic relationship with the Minneapolis Police Department, to end policing as we know it, and to re-create systems of public safety that actually keep us safe," Minneapolis City Council President Lisa Bender said at Sunday’s community meeting.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/minneapolis-city-council-announces-intent-to-disband-police-department/ar-BB15amCL?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=mailsignout



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 06/07/20 7:19 pm    ::: Re: How to reform the police Reply Reply with quote

Genero36 wrote:
Minneapolis City Council announces intent to disband police department.





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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 06/07/20 7:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Can't quite wrap my mind around that. I guess crime wouldn't increase since there wouldn't be any arrest reports? Can they close down the courthouses too?


Genero36



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PostPosted: 06/07/20 7:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote




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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 06/07/20 8:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yes, he's not too bright, but it's uncool to post his family's address on social media like that.


tfan



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PostPosted: 06/07/20 9:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If "dismantle/defund the police department" is from "abolish ICE" I don't see them as working out the same. Abolishing ICE is definitely going to help illegal migrants (American workers, not so much). Is getting rid of the police department really going to help the majority of black people?

I think the focus should be on economics. Get rid of the illegal workforce by punishing employers. End immigration, including all the special categories. Force American companies to manufacture in the United States. But instead of seeing those as problems, we see them as critical parts of the solution.


Genero36



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PostPosted: 06/08/20 6:18 pm    ::: Re: How to reform the police Reply Reply with quote

Lies That Police Officers Use To Get You To Talk…

There are many ways a police officer will try to trick you into talking. It’s always safe to say the Magic Words:

“Am I free to leave, if not I’m going to remain silent and I want a lawyer.”

The following are common lie’s the police use when they’re trying to get you to talk to them:

* “You will have to stay here and answer my questions” or “You’re not leaving until I find out what I want to know.”

* “I have evidence on you, so tell me what I want to know or else.” (They can fabricate fake evidence to convince you to tell them what they want to know.)

* “You’re not a suspect, were simply investigating here. Just help us understand what happened and then you can go.”


* “If you don’t answer my questions, I won’t have any choice but to take you to jail.”


* “If you don’t answer these questions, you’ll be charged with resisting arrest.”


* “Your friend has told his side of the story and it’s not looking good for you, anything you want to say in your defense?”



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Genero36



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PostPosted: 06/08/20 8:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<embed><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HRYnH_CKNbQ" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe></embed>

https://youtu.be/HRYnH_CKNbQ



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