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Becky Hammon...first?
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Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 3223
Location: New York City


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PostPosted: 03/07/20 9:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
The right does virtue signaling with regard to their flag waving love-my-great-country “we are great patriots” stuff. They claim it is all with regard to the country, but it actually goes no further than their party and the leaders of their party. That should be used against them when they are in an outraged uproar over a Democratic elected government. Their allegedly virtuous qualities of obeyance and praise of their government turns to condemnation and disdain.

Lower government spending is not normally considered virtuous, but if virtue signaling is broadened to mean “hypocritical” the right does it with regard to government spending. Obama and Clinton were the only two presidents to reduce the deficit in the past 40 years. It went up under Reagan, Bush, Bush and Trump despite a ton of rhetoric from the right about “big government” being bad, and the like.


Yes to all of this. As a proud "child of the '60s," I was one of those often told to "love it or leave it" (the U.S.). Indeed, early in the Vietnam War, my father called me a traitor for being against the war. He came around a couple of years later.

I've mainly seen the ugly term "virtue signalling" used against people speaking out about sexism and/or racism and/or homophobia. It's interesting to read what you've written about that term being used against people speaking out on environmental issues. No surprise, alas. Again, I've never seen it used against anyone or anything right-wing.



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Silky Johnson



Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: 03/07/20 10:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
... So if Hammon were placed ahead of Duncan, would that have been for merit?


Well, when the opportunity in question is to coach, and one candidate has actual, verifiable experience as a coach, and the other doesn't, it's hardly a reach to say that taking the candidate with coaching experience over the one with no coaching experience is as close to a merit-based decision as a reasonable person can expect.

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Or would that have been discrimination against blacks?


WTF, seriously?

This sort of false equivalence, bad faith arguing should be beneath everybody. I don't know why I was surprised that it isn't beneath you.



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ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 03/08/20 12:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
ClayK wrote:
... So if Hammon were placed ahead of Duncan, would that have been for merit?


Well, when the opportunity in question is to coach, and one candidate has actual, verifiable experience as a coach, and the other doesn't, it's hardly a reach to say that taking the candidate with coaching experience over the one with no coaching experience is as close to a merit-based decision as a reasonable person can expect.

Quote:
Or would that have been discrimination against blacks?


WTF, seriously?

This sort of false equivalence, bad faith arguing should be beneath everybody. I don't know why I was surprised that it isn't beneath you.


So I'm guessing your answer is "No, it wouldn't have been discrimination against black males." Which is what I was looking for. If a white male assistant had been placed ahead of Duncan, would the same logic apply? We get this in the NFL all the time, but the NBA is more forward-thinking -- still, the percentage of white NBA head coaches is much, much higher than the percentage of white players. In some ways, then, Duncan's elevation is also a move against discrimination.

As for the coaching experience aspect, there have been coaches who have done very well with no experience, and many experienced assistants and head coaches who have failed.

None of us has been inside a Spurs' practice, or a Spurs' coaching meeting, and so to assume Hammon is better is hard for outsiders to justify. I would tend to agree with you, though I think there is a chance Duncan's 20+ years in the league might also factor into the experience aspect, but I could be wrong.



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J-Spoon



Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: 03/08/20 1:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Virtue signaling first started as a term to call out people for doing something virtuous not because the person believes in the virtue of that thing but because they want to self-aggrandize by making themselves look virtuous.

What has happened is the term is frequently applied to things like supporting a woman to be the first head coach of an NBA team, assuming not because you believe a woman could be a great coach, or could actually make an amazing contribution to an NBA team, or social change that would be great for society, or that the particular woman in question has earned it, but rather because the only way an organization or individual would do or could want a woman as a head coach is to make themselves look good by doing so, because it would be so ridiculous for it to be any other reason, Which is insulting to the amazing woman who gets that opportunity and Condescending to anyone who actually believes a woman coach would be a good thing not because they want to appear woke, but rather because they believe it would be a good thing.

So basically we might need a new term to call out people for being pretentious posers because there are plenty of them and they need to be called out.


Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 3223
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PostPosted: 03/08/20 2:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
Virtue signaling first started as a term to call out people for doing something virtuous not because the person believes in the virtue of that thing but because they want to self-aggrandize by making themselves look virtuous.

What has happened is the term is frequently applied to things like supporting a woman to be the first head coach of an NBA team, assuming not because you believe a woman could be a great coach, or could actually make an amazing contribution to an NBA team, or social change that would be great for society, or that the particular woman in question has earned it, but rather because the only way an organization or individual would do or could want a woman as a head coach is to make themselves look good by doing so, because it would be so ridiculous for it to be any other reason, Which is insulting to the amazing woman who gets that opportunity and Condescending to anyone who actually believes a woman coach would be a good thing not because they want to appear woke, but rather because they believe it would be a good thing.

So basically we might need a new term to call out people for being pretentious posers because there are plenty of them and they need to be called out.


I agree, but there's still something missing here. Various people have been part of this discussion and not one has offered a single example of anyone right-wing being called out for "virtue signalling." That's because it's a right-wing term parallel to another right-wing term, "social justice warrior."

The sexism behind what J-Spoon accurately describes in the second paragraph quoted above is but one example of the right-wing nature of these ugly terms.

To be as clear as possible, there are "pretentious posers"--there are people who "self aggrandize"--in EVERY political circle and movement. But the use of "virtue signalling" and "social justice warrior" never acknowledges that. These are smears against those of us who challenge right-wing bigots of many kinds.



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Genero36



Joined: 24 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: 03/09/20 7:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote


Trailblazing NBA Women Coaches

Quote:
“Breaking the glass ceiling as the first female coach, and for the 11 of us, it’s not just about swinging that hammer [to break it],” Hammon said. “It’s the process and challenges just to be able to take a swing at it.”


Quote:
“[Head coach] Rick Carlisle, [owner] Mark Cuban, the leaders of the Mavs organization, they are the trailblazers. They were willing to have tough conversations and support my family and me,” Boucek said.


Quote:
Toliver made $10,000 as an assistant coach in the NBA during her first season with the Wizards due to the WNBA’s previous collective-bargaining agreement (CBA). “In my mind, it was like, ‘You don’t pass up on this kind of opportunity,’” Toliver said. “So this comes along. And is it right? No, interns make more than that.

“But when I was weighing things, I get to work on my craft as a player and coach every single day. I get to be around the best players in the world every single day. All those things outweigh $10,000.”


Quote:
“I didn’t plan all of this. I didn’t expect to work in the league office for a year after playing in the WNBA,” Harding said. “Part of me doing that is because I wanted to learn how the NBA works, and I also wanted to be taken seriously as a former player.”


Quote:
“I’m not here just because they wanted a female or African-American female on staff but because I have the résumé to prove that I know this game,” said Ivey, who spent the past 12 seasons (2007–19) on the sideline at her alma mater of Notre Dame, where she served most recently as an associate head coach and recruiting coordinator under head coach Muffet McGraw.


Quote:
“When I speak, the players and coaches hear that I know the game,” said Weatherspoon, 54. “And it just so happened that I was inducted in the [Naismith Memorial Basketball] Hall of Fame. So all of that mattered when I joined the staff.” Before the Pelicans, Weatherspoon acted as director of player and franchise development for the WNBA’s New York Liberty. It was during her time with the Liberty that Weatherspoon started to seriously talk to former colleague Swin Cash, the former WNBA star recently hired as the Pelicans’ vice president of basketball operations and team development, about the potential to coach in the NBA.


http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story?_slug_=trailblazing-nba-women-coaches&id=28744241&redirected=true



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