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Becky Hammon...first?
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ClayK



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PostPosted: 03/04/20 10:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

OK, we all want Becky Hammon, and female coaches, to be honored and supported. And we wanted her to coach the Spurs.

And some are upset at Popovich.

Is it possible he thinks Duncan is a better choice? Is it possible Duncan is a better coach than Hammon? If so, should Hammon still have been the choice?

And of course, none of us have any clue who was the better choice. The only way to know that is to be at practice every day.



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 03/04/20 10:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
OK, we all want Becky Hammon, and female coaches, to be honored and supported. And we wanted her to coach the Spurs.

And some are upset at Popovich.

Is it possible he thinks Duncan is a better choice? Is it possible Duncan is a better coach than Hammon? If so, should Hammon still have been the choice?


Man, FOH with this plausible deniability bullshit. Is it possible that Tim Duncan is some sort of coaching savant? Yes. Is it possible that he was the most qualified? No. Is it possible that he was the most experienced? No.

Look, I already knew what the game was: the day that they announced that Duncan had joined the coaching staff, it was a fait accompli that Popovich was keeping the seat warm for him. But every time someone from an underrepresented marginalized group is even considered for one of these opportunities, the conversation immediately becomes, "Don't force diversity down our throats, don't pander to the SJW agenda, give the job to the most qualified!" Then, when the most qualified candidate gets passed over for the new hotness, the conversation immediately shifts to, "Well, maybe he's just a natural! How do we know that he's not the better coach? Why don't you give him a chance?"

It's transparent, and it's tiring.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 03/05/20 10:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
ClayK wrote:
OK, we all want Becky Hammon, and female coaches, to be honored and supported. And we wanted her to coach the Spurs.

And some are upset at Popovich.

Is it possible he thinks Duncan is a better choice? Is it possible Duncan is a better coach than Hammon? If so, should Hammon still have been the choice?


Man, FOH with this plausible deniability bullshit. Is it possible that Tim Duncan is some sort of coaching savant? Yes. Is it possible that he was the most qualified? No. Is it possible that he was the most experienced? No.

Look, I already knew what the game was: the day that they announced that Duncan had joined the coaching staff, it was a fait accompli that Popovich was keeping the seat warm for him. But every time someone from an underrepresented marginalized group is even considered for one of these opportunities, the conversation immediately becomes, "Don't force diversity down our throats, don't pander to the SJW agenda, give the job to the most qualified!" Then, when the most qualified candidate gets passed over for the new hotness, the conversation immediately shifts to, "Well, maybe he's just a natural! How do we know that he's not the better coach? Why don't you give him a chance?"

It's transparent, and it's tiring.


I would agree with all of that, and just wanted to point out that it is possible Duncan was the better choice.

Of course, all this NBA stuff is virtue signalling ... I don't think we'll ever see a woman coaching an NBA, NFL, MLB or NHL team.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 03/05/20 5:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd like to note that I detest the right-wing term "virtue signalling."



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 03/05/20 8:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:

I would agree with all of that, and just wanted to point out that it is possible Duncan was the better choice.


:: sighs ::


Yes, it's possible that Duncan was the better choice. Since Becky has only had the opportunity to sit in the "big chair" during the Summer League (which she won, if you'll recall), we don't actually know yet. It doesn't change the fact that Duncan didn't get the job based on merit and, if the roles were reversed, you know that would have been the entire narrative.



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 03/05/20 8:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
I'd like to note that I detest the right-wing term "virtue signalling."


Telling on themselves, left and right.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 03/06/20 1:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Just stumbled onto something I'd forgotten. The ugly, right-wing term "virtue signalling" was tossed out on this thread--and criticized--on 12/9/19. Now it's back again. I support freedom of expression on this board. If anyone wants to use this term, go for it. But I will state my disgust every time.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 03/06/20 10:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Just stumbled onto something I'd forgotten. The ugly, right-wing term "virtue signalling" was tossed out on this thread--and criticized--on 12/9/19. Now it's back again. I support freedom of expression on this board. If anyone wants to use this term, go for it. But I will state my disgust every time.


Interesting ... I think it's a very apt and descriptive phrase that nails a certain kind of corporate action. What would you prefer instead?



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pilight



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PostPosted: 03/06/20 10:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/28744241/trailblazing-nba-women-coaches

Quote:
From playing in the WNBA to coaching college basketball to working the sideline for NBA teams, these women all bring unique experiences to the league. Yet they share commonalities: They love the game and know it better than most. Ahead of International Women’s Day on Sunday, these women shared their stories.



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Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 03/06/20 10:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Interesting ... I think it's a very apt and descriptive phrase that nails a certain kind of corporate action.


It is not a "very apt and descriptive phrase." It's a pejorative. Whether it was your intent or not (and I am disinclined to give benefit of the doubt, at this point), you are implying that anybody who advocates for Becky to get a shot at being a head coach is being performative, rather than genuinely believing that she's earned a shot. It's insulting.


Quote:
What would you prefer instead?


Who the fuck cares? Use your imagination. Or, if that's too much to ask, break out a thesaurus, or something. Or, if you want to keep using that expression, then keep using it. But don't throw rocks, and then hide your hand: stop pretending that you don't know exactly what kind of dog whistle it is, when you use it.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 03/06/20 11:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
OK, we all want Becky Hammon, and female coaches, to be honored and supported. And we wanted her to coach the Spurs.


Would this comment be the perfect example of virtue signaling?

ClayK wrote:
Is it possible he thinks Duncan is a better choice? Is it possible Duncan is a better coach than Hammon? If so, should Hammon still have been the choice?

And of course, none of us have any clue who was the better choice. The only way to know that is to be at practice every day.


What happened to the resume being the most important thing?

ClayK wrote:
My point is that there are numerous assistants on every team in the NBA with tremendous resumes, and not just former head coaches. Each team has something like six assistants, and if three on each team were interested, that's 90 candidates. And though Hammon may be more qualified than 2/3 of them, that would still put her 30th.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 03/06/20 7:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Seems like every coaching resume has no value when all it has is assistant coaching positions if you are trying to determine head coaching ability. Which of the never-been-head-coach assistant coaches on any team are the best? You need to get opinions from players and coaches to try and assess how they would do as a head coach. In Hammon’s case she did head coach a summer league team and they did well. But the Spurs coach has seen both in action in practice, so could judge Duncan better, or he could have just done it as a favor to a player that got him a lot of wins.

The recent hiring of WNBA players and coaches by the NBA may be encouraged by the league, but Popovich said he had talked to Hammon when she was on the Stars and was impressed. But he does need to say something like that in either case.




Last edited by tfan on 03/08/20 1:49 am; edited 2 times in total
tfan



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PostPosted: 03/06/20 7:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:

Who the fuck cares? Use your imagination. Or, if that's too much to ask, break out a thesaurus, or something. Or, if you want to keep using that expression, then keep using it. But don't throw rocks, and then hide your hand: stop pretending that you don't know exactly what kind of dog whistle it is, when you use it.


What kind of “dog whistle” is it? The term “dog whistle” says that you heard a non-explicit meaning but since it wasn’t explicit you should clarify what you think you heard. If you are saying that “virtue signal” is a pejorative is the dog whistle, that is actually the way it is used. It is explicitly meant as a dig (but a small dig) at someone’s behavior.


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 03/06/20 8:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It is a "dog whistle" in the sense that it is a term used (usually) by conservatives to incite other conservatives to engage aggressively with people who are advocating for a progressive ideal, while at the same time being a pejorative to agitate those progressive people by implying (without saying outright) that they do not have a sincere belief in that ideal.



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Luuuc



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PostPosted: 03/06/20 8:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The term "virtue signaling" became a thing because it - in the pejorative sense - does happen. There's no doubt that it's a real thing.
But then of course it transformed into an overused term to lazily dismiss an opinion you don't care for, just like #fakenews and #okboomer



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 03/06/20 10:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
It is a "dog whistle" in the sense that it is a term used (usually) by conservatives to incite other conservatives to engage aggressively with people who are advocating for a progressive ideal, while at the same time being a pejorative to agitate those progressive people by implying (without saying outright) that they do not have a sincere belief in that ideal.


Completely agree. I've never seen anyone right-wing accused of "virtue signalling." It's parallel to another ugly term: "social justice warrior." Anyone from any political perspective can be obnoxiously self-congratulatory. But these loaded terms are right-wing invective tossed at the right wing's enemies.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 03/07/20 10:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
It is a "dog whistle" in the sense that it is a term used (usually) by conservatives to incite other conservatives to engage aggressively with people who are advocating for a progressive ideal, while at the same time being a pejorative to agitate those progressive people by implying (without saying outright) that they do not have a sincere belief in that ideal.


Completely agree. I've never seen anyone right-wing accused of "virtue signalling." It's parallel to another ugly term: "social justice warrior." Anyone from any political perspective can be obnoxiously self-congratulatory. But these loaded terms are right-wing invective tossed at the right wing's enemies.


All of this is very interesting ... I've never heard the term used as a putdown to those who are discriminated against, but rather it seems to me to be a comment about the true intent of the corporation hiring a female or minority.

I guess this comes back to the very complicated "affirmative action" (I hope that's not offensive) debate about how scarce positions in colleges/jobs/etc. should be allocated. Of course white males have long benefited from the way society has been structured -- and I have benefited, naturally -- and there is need to rebalance the scales.

But for me, when corporations take actions that are lip service rather than true commitment, that's a negative, and that's what I see happening in the NBA with the hiring of female coaches. Perhaps I'm wrong, and to some, certainly, "virtue signalling" is the wrong phrase to call out what I see as corporate hypocrisy.

My apologies to those who have been offended by it, and I'll stick with "hypocritical" -- but it is interesting in this case that a black man getting placed ahead of a white woman was cause for concern about discrimination. Have we reached the point where white women are more discriminated against than black men?

I'm not making a case either way, just curious about people's opinions.



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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 03/07/20 10:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd opine that Duncan got the job simply because he's a former star NBA player, and that gender or race weren't even necessary considerations. Look at how many coaches across all sports get coaching jobs just because they were star players even though they have minimal coaching experience, and then get coaching jobs again even if they were barely mediocre the first time around. The star factor is a huge selling point on their resumes.


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PostPosted: 03/07/20 11:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
I'd opine that Duncan got the job simply because he's a former star NBA player, and that gender or race weren't even necessary considerations.


That still makes gender a consideration. A female former star would not have gotten this opportunity.



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PostPosted: 03/07/20 11:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Do people seriously think NBA coaching ranks are a pure meritocracy?

Or is the idea of meritocracy something we only bring up to argue against female candidates?


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 03/07/20 11:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
Do people seriously think NBA coaching ranks are a pure meritocracy?

Or is the idea of meritocracy something we only bring up to argue against female candidates?


Great questions, great statement.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 03/07/20 11:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
Do people seriously think NBA coaching ranks are a pure meritocracy?

Or is the idea of meritocracy something we only bring up to argue against female candidates?


Great questions, great statement.


Of course it's not a meritocracy -- I can't think of any human organization that is.

Then again, the argument about "merit" has been used against black men for hundreds of years, so you can replace "female candidates" with "black males" and have an equally valid case to make.

So if Hammon were placed ahead of Duncan, would that have been for merit? Or would that have been discrimination against blacks?



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 03/07/20 8:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In my opinion, Greg Popovich has prodigiously more insight and experience than anyone on this board re the issue of signalling which assistant, Duncan or Hammon, has more virtue to be interim head coach. After all, he's motivated by the professional, economic and social justice of winning the most games possible while he's absent, and presumably made his decision on that basis.
tfan



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PostPosted: 03/07/20 8:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
but rather it seems to me to be a comment about the true intent of the corporation hiring a female or minority.


I am most familiar with it in regard to environmental issues and positions.


tfan



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PostPosted: 03/07/20 9:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
It is a "dog whistle" in the sense that it is a term used (usually) by conservatives to incite other conservatives to engage aggressively with people who are advocating for a progressive ideal, while at the same time being a pejorative to agitate those progressive people by implying (without saying outright) that they do not have a sincere belief in that ideal.


Completely agree. I've never seen anyone right-wing accused of "virtue signalling." It's parallel to another ugly term: "social justice warrior." Anyone from any political perspective can be obnoxiously self-congratulatory. But these loaded terms are right-wing invective tossed at the right wing's enemies.


The right does virtue signaling with regard to their flag waving love-my-great-country “we are great patriots” stuff. They claim it is all with regard to the country, but it actually goes no further than their party and the leaders of their party. That should be used against them when they are in an outraged uproar over a Democratic elected government. Their allegedly virtuous qualities of obeyance and praise of their government turns to condemnation and disdain.

Lower government spending is not normally considered virtuous, but if virtue signaling is broadened to mean “hypocritical” the right does it with regard to government spending. Obama and Clinton were the only two presidents to reduce the deficit in the past 40 years. It went up under Reagan, Bush, Bush and Trump despite a ton of rhetoric from the right about “big government” being bad, and the like.


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