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Shades



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PostPosted: 04/25/20 5:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sun coach : WNBA rookie key to championship title chase
https://newsday.co.tt/2020/04/23/sun-coach-wnba-rookie-key-to-championship-title-chase/

Quote:
“We added DeWanna Bonner in the offseason. DeWanna is one of the premier players in the league, so a huge addition for us and now with Kaila Charles another versatile, athletic player that plays both ends of the floor. We feel like we have improved pieces to take that championship step and have an opportunity to get back to the championship series if we could stay healthy.”


Sounds like Charles is going to be given every chance to make the final roster.

Quote:
“She is a tremendous athlete and really thrives playing in the up-tempo style and we are a team that plays very much up-tempo. We led the WNBA in scoring in both 2017 and 2018, so we are a team that loves to play in transition and I think she is going to thrive in our system and in that kind of play.”


I can confirm she works very hard on both ends of the court.

Quote:
We have had her for the last two months on our top ten in the draft board, so we really thought highly of her.”


So he had her rated as a first round pick, but picked her up at #23. Who needs first round picks?

Quote:
Charles averaged 14.7 points, 6.9 rebounds, 1.9 assists and 1.4 steals per game. Last season, she led the University of Maryland in both scoring and rebounding.


Maryland was a Top 4 team.

Quote:
“We have two players on our team previously that also played at Maryland, so it has been a good pipeline for us. We have known and followed Kaila for a while now.”

Alyssa Thomas and Brionna Jones also attended Maryland.


Lexie Brown went to Maryland her first two years. She didn’t like Maryland’s move to the Big Ten, so she transferred to Duke.



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 04/28/20 6:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sun waived Valeriane Ayayi, bringing the roster's player count down to 15.



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PostPosted: 04/28/20 6:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
Sun waived Valeriane Ayayi, bringing the roster's player count down to 15.


I'm guessing she wasn't going to show up. It does feel like the league is pushing teams to trim their rosters down to 15 ASAP.

I do feel like three of their guards will be the ones to get cut. Between Charles/Landrum/Gwathmey/Gemelos only one makes the roster.



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 04/28/20 7:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
Sun waived Valeriane Ayayi, bringing the roster's player count down to 15.


I'm guessing she wasn't going to show up. It does feel like the league is pushing teams to trim their rosters down to 15 ASAP.

I do feel like three of their guards will be the ones to get cut. Between Charles/Landrum/Gwathmey/Gemelos only one makes the roster.

If you're talking opening day it could easily be none of them. They'll be starting with 11 barring something unexpected.



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 04/28/20 7:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
toad455 wrote:
Stormeo wrote:
Sun waived Valeriane Ayayi, bringing the roster's player count down to 15.


I'm guessing she wasn't going to show up. It does feel like the league is pushing teams to trim their rosters down to 15 ASAP.

I do feel like three of their guards will be the ones to get cut. Between Charles/Landrum/Gwathmey/Gemelos only one makes the roster.

If you're talking opening day it could easily be none of them. They'll be starting with 11 barring something unexpected.


And if one chooses to use their Twitter header as any indication, 10 of them have already been decided on.



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PostPosted: 04/28/20 7:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yeah, I had 10 down as pretty damn likely, and one spot absolutely wide open: https://herhoopstats.substack.com/p/wnba-post-draft-roster-projections

Although, in a normal year I wouldn't have been that surprised to see KML or Brionna Jones beaten out in camp, or even a buyout deal with Plaisance if they could get her to take a significant cut. This year I doubt any of that happens.



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PostPosted: 04/28/20 7:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So Huff vs Charles for the 11th spot?


Stormeo



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PostPosted: 04/28/20 7:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
Yeah, I had 10 down as pretty damn likely, and one spot absolutely wide open: https://herhoopstats.substack.com/p/wnba-post-draft-roster-projections

Although, in a normal year I wouldn't have been that surprised to see KML or Brionna Jones beaten out in camp, or even a buyout deal with Plaisance if they could get her to take a significant cut. This year I doubt any of that happens.


J-Spoon wrote:
So Huff vs Charles for the 11th spot?


I'd rather see one of/both KML & Jones get cut, since neither of them have shown a whole lot in their time in the league in general; and as a bonus it would potentially allow the Sun to start with 12. Their rotation's only going to be maybe 9-deep anyway due to their presumed reliance on their starters. And what's the hurt in giving the players with overseas experience an actual shot? If I'm the Sun, I give whoever out of that group that shows the most in camp a chance on the off-chance that they end up providing value, while still keeping a watchful eye on the waiver wire. I don't see KML or Jones actually helping them in games.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 04/28/20 7:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

BJones played well overseas. Charles was heavily praised in the article I posted above but nobody seemed to read. I have those two making the final roster.



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PostPosted: 04/28/20 8:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
BJones played well overseas. Charles was heavily praised in the article I posted above but nobody seemed to read. I have those two making the final roster.


Playing well overseas doesn't necessarily translate into the W. And Jones has done little and not improved in her three years with the Sun, so why should anyone expect anything different this year? Miller said she was going to have a "monster year" off the bench for them last year and needless to say, that didn't pan out, so it's hard to say how she's regarded by him these days. As for Charles, as high as you & I are on her, the fact of the matter is, she's a late-second-round pick on a team that's trying to contend. Though she probably has a better chance of making it than not, I'm not penciling her in by any means.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 04/28/20 9:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How high I am on Charles isn’t all that relevant. I was pointing out how high Miller is on her. I can’t believe somebody who thought Charles was good enough to start for the Liberty isn’t sure she can make the final roster of a team whose GM is high on her.

JThomas/Hiedeman
January/Holmes
Bonner/KML/Charles
AThomas/Plaisance
JJones/BJones

Leftovers
Jacki Gemelos
Jazmon Gwathmey
Megan Huff
Juicy Landrum

Nothing too controversial here.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 04/28/20 9:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:

And if one chooses to use their Twitter header as any indication, 10 of them have already been decided on.


As Commissioner of the Height Police, I really object to the misleading nature of that picture!



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PostPosted: 04/28/20 10:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
How high I am on Charles isn’t all that relevant. I was pointing out how high Miller is on her. I can’t believe somebody who thought Charles was good enough to start for the Liberty isn’t sure she can make the final roster of a team whose GM is high on her.

JThomas/Hiedeman
January/Holmes
Bonner/KML/Charles
AThomas/Plaisance
JJones/BJones

Leftovers
Jacki Gemelos
Jazmon Gwathmey
Megan Huff
Juicy Landrum

Nothing too controversial here.


I think Charles gets the last spot as well, I have Huff as the other option because she is more of a post and shoots the 3 so I could see Miller going that way but with Bonner able to play some 4 picking Charles seems like the right move.

I also don't hate the idea of waiving KML and keeping both Charles and Huff, but I think KML will be given more than a pre-season camp to prove herself. If her 3 is falling a smaller version of a Stricklen like role but off the bench seems within her reach.


Shades



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PostPosted: 04/28/20 10:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bonner can play anything from 2 to emergency 5.
I think she’ll likely be the first option at PF when Alyssa Thomas has to be off the floor.
Charles can play from 2-4. Same for Holmes, but less ideal at 4 than Bonner.
Plaisance 4-5.

Helps to have versatile players if you do you need to go with 11.



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PostPosted: 04/28/20 11:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
How high I am on Charles isn’t all that relevant. I was pointing out how high Miller is on her. I can’t believe somebody who thought Charles was good enough to start for the Liberty isn’t sure she can make the final roster of a team whose GM is high on her.


Miller could be what many coaches do with players they've just brought onto their roster by talking them up, as we both can agree that Miller likes to make himself look good after that "basement" comment he made from a few drafts ago. Razz He may see her as a Top-10 prospect, but even then, we've seen actual Top-10 draft picks get cut before and never appear in a real game. Envisioning that she'll fit versus seeing how she actually fits with the other players might be two different situations. And speaking of two different situations, that's exactly what the Liberty and the Sun are. How high I am on Charles isn't all that relevant, either. Again, the fact of the matter is, she was picked 23rd by a contending team, as opposed to 15th or higher by a rebuilding team. The context of her actual situation matters. Opportunity can count just as much as talent in my book, as it relates to on-the-court results from a player. Combine her lower opportunity with her diminished value as a prospect and those will naturally decrease her likelihood to make such a roster. Again... my point was, she probably will make it, but it's far from a foregone conclusion in my mind. We just haven't seen many picks taken in the second halves of Drafts make it out of the gate.

What I've learned about this League is, even when things like roster spots appear to be wrapped up and packaged nicely, teams/GMs can on a whim do a 180 out of the blue and go in a different direction. We can make our guesses, and sometimes be right about them, but they're bound to include our own biases either way. Seemingly non-sensical moves happen all the time, exposing things that might've appeared neatly black-and-white as this weird gray area that only the people in charge may understand. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

root_thing wrote:
As Commissioner of the Height Police, I really object to the misleading nature of that picture!


Laughing But at least on the ends, Plaisance is still tall and Hiedeman is still short. Even if J. Jones is now as tall as January (excluding her bun). Embarassed

If I squint real hard, KML almost looks like she's slimmed down... Shocked if I squint. Laughing



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PostPosted: 04/28/20 11:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The irony that Charles falling in the draft was the best thing that could have happened to her is pretty cool though. Conn at 23 and she has a good chance to make the team

LA at 22 or 20 would have been very hard unless they kept her instead of Weise basically the same challenge that Martin and Mompremeir will face in Mompremier's case it is over Gulich in the post
Dallas went for a deferred pick at 21 because they were low on spots and SF is arguably their deepest spot (Sabally, Thorton, KLS sometime Gray or even Alarie)
Seattle at 19 no chance, made even worse if Laksa shows up
PX at 18 I could see Cooper sneak into the 12th spot unfortunately PX can only afford 11 to start so another place Charles would have not shot
Atl at 17 I think Brewer has a 50/50 shot to make it because as a tall post there is a spot for one of her or Coates in Atl doesn't pick up a waiver wire player. However Charles spot 3/2 already has Hayes, C. Williams, Stricklen, and sometimes Carter and sometime GloJo, as well as A. Jones, Dietrick and Cazorla all trying to get a spot maybe Charles gets the 12th spot if she beats out A. Jones. Cazorla, and Dietrick possible but still a battle
Minn at 16 I think because Dangerfield is a PG she will probably make the final roster, again Charles being a 3/2 puts her at Minny's deeper position Collier, Zanalasini, Johnson, KCK, and maybe Brown or Banham sometimes and maybe pick 6 Herbert-Harrigan sometimes I am not sure Charles would breakthrough.
Then we have NY at 15, 13, and 12 Charles could have got one of those spots most likely 15 where Odom was taken, but she doesn't shoot the 3 at all which is relatively important to the new coach Odom has the same struggle, maybe all Charles other skills like Odom would give her a shot but with pick 9, 10, 12, 13 and 15 all joining the team at least one more likely two of those 5 rookies are not making the final cut so Charles again would have an uphill battle
Indy at 14 I don't think Doyle makes it but if they want a PG maybe, Charles again as a /2 would have a lot of company K. Mithcell (who I think has to be a 1 but many have as a 2) T. Mitchell, Vivians, Laney, Burke Charles could beat out one of those players but I would put them ahead of her in the depth chart to start.
Seattle at 11 also a hard spot as they can't afford pick 11 unless they cut or trade Prince or Langhorne
PX at 10 actually if PX picked her at 10 she probably could have made it, she would just have to beat out pick 18 but PX traded the pick for more experience so there you go

Therefor Charles getting picked at 23 was a great thing for her and actually vastly increased her chances of making a team


Shades



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PostPosted: 04/29/20 5:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Excellent job, Spooner. Saved me a lot of work. You show how Charles fell through the cracks of this draft and shouldn’t necessarily be viewed as damaged goods just because she went at #23. People forget #23 was Connecticut‘a first pick of the draft. Imagine how Miller must have felt when the player he would have drafted at #11 had he kept that pick shows up at #23.
I personally think NYL screwed up by targeting the odd lot of players they did and not considering Charles, but hopefully we’ll get to see how that turns out.



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PostPosted: 04/29/20 6:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Excellent job, Spooner. Saved me a lot of work. You show how Charles fell through the cracks of this draft and shouldn’t necessarily be viewed as damaged goods just because she went at #23. People forget #23 was Connecticut‘a first pick of the draft. Imagine how Miller must have felt when the player he would have drafted at #11 had he kept that pick shows up at #23.
I personally think NYL screwed up by targeting the odd lot of players they did and not considering Charles, but hopefully we’ll get to see how that turns out.


I like Walker and Willoughby at 9 and 10 but with where my head was at pre draft I probably would have went Holmes, Mompremier and Charles at 12,13 and 15

Ionescu/Clarendon
Durr/Johannes/(Charles)
Nurse/Walker/Willoughby
Zahui B/Allen/(Holmes)
Stokes/Mompremier

Holmes vs Charles for the last spot
I still think Charles had a better chance in Conn but might have made my version of the Liberty

PS I like my team for NY more but I am on board with whatever the Liberty are doing I will support my home team no matter what but it is definitely a GM/Coach vs basement dweller argument


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PostPosted: 04/29/20 7:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You or I would have drafted for a more conventional lineup, but there’s no reason Charles wouldn’t have worked for the Liberty’s small ball scheme. Charles was playing the 4 for most of the season at Maryland. She’s a very good rebounder and defender with a good transition game, similar to fellow Maryland alum Alyssa Thomas. Plus she was the leading scorer for the #4 club in the country. Unlike Thomas, there’s nothing physically wrong with her to prevent her from shooting the three. She just needs to work on it. It’s so tough stopping her from getting to the hole she doesn’t really need to shoot the three, although that ability would make her that much more dangerous.



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PostPosted: 04/29/20 10:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The decisions about players at the end of the bench are often opaque to us because they don't really matter, at many levels. If you have to play nine or ten in your rotation for big minutes, then you're very likely going to be losing a lot of games.

So it's less about raw talent, or ability to contribute on the floor this season, than things like potential or team chemistry or contracts.

There's an old line from high school: You get your 12-person varsity by picking the eight best players and the four nicest people.



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PostPosted: 04/29/20 10:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Back in the Comet dynasty days, Van Chacellor was asked who he was going to keep as the last player. He answered "Whoever Cooper likes." I would imagine many, if not most, coaches follow a similar philosophy.



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PostPosted: 04/29/20 10:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Back in the Comet dynasty days, Van Chacellor was asked who he was going to keep as the last player. He answered "Whoever Cooper likes." I would imagine many, if not most, coaches follow a similar philosophy.


This reminds me of 2016 with Parker and Gruda Laughing



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PostPosted: 04/29/20 11:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/p3Uw2cRdyKQ" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>



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PostPosted: 04/29/20 12:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Stormeo wrote:

And if one chooses to use their Twitter header as any indication, 10 of them have already been decided on.


As Commissioner of the Height Police, I really object to the misleading nature of that picture!


yeah, cut and paste has its limitations! Laughing



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PostPosted: 04/29/20 1:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Back in the Comet dynasty days, Van Chacellor was asked who he was going to keep as the last player. He answered "Whoever Cooper likes." I would imagine many, if not most, coaches follow a similar philosophy.


When the Colts had Peyton Manning, the back-up QB was basically the same idea. If you ever got to the point that you were relying on that person, you had much bigger issues.


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