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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 03/01/21 2:21 pm ::: |
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I've noticed a few of things working on these 80's results
1 There were far more games between D-I and lower divisions than there are now
2 There were a lot more independents than there are now
3 There's more data missing than I expected. US International University in San Diego, for example, was a D-I school for a while. The school no longer exists, and neither does any official record of its results.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 04/19/21 1:27 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
I've noticed a few of things working on these 80's results
1 There were far more games between D-I and lower divisions than there are now
2 There were a lot more independents than there are now
3 There's more data missing than I expected. US International University in San Diego, for example, was a D-I school for a while. The school no longer exists, and neither does any official record of its results. |
4 Teams played fewer conference games that they do now
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Conway Gamecock
Joined: 23 Jan 2015 Posts: 1900 Location: Here
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Posted: 04/19/21 7:25 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
Howee wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
These are so not the answers I was looking for... |
Pilight? If YOU can't find this *stuff*, I doubt God can. You really thought the mere mortals of Rebkells could do it? |
I'm good at finding things online. I have a suspicion this may be something that has to be located offline. |
Yep. Real old data for collegiate sports, you find scans or pdf's of old typed out data that were in old notebooks or media guides. No different than with the NCAA. I personally updated the wikipedia page for South Carolina women's basketball to include a dedicated wiki for Nancy Wilson, who preceded the head coach Susan Walvius, who preceded Dawn Staley.
Seems Wiki only had one of those red-inked pages that was totally incomplete for Wilson, which was a crime to me considering that Wilson retired as the all-time winning-est head coach for TWO Div-I programs, College of Charleston and South Carolina, until Staley surpassed her 2-3 years ago.
Also Wilson was hired by the CoC HC/women's AD at the time Joan Cronan, who would resign the coaching duties to focus full-time on her AD duties - Cronan made the storyline interesting, because she was also previously the head WBB coach of Tennessee for 2 seasons, before being replaced with Margaret Hutson, who we all know would go on to hire a very young assistant named Pat Head.
Cronan would eventually return to Tennessee as their WBB Athletic Director, and hold that job for decades, all through Pat Head Summitt's WBB program dominance.
Anyhow, in order to populate Nancy Wilson's Wiki page with data, I had to scour the internet and NCAA resources as well. For a good while to start her coaching career, CoC was AIAW D-II, and led her team to three consecutive AIAW D-II national runner-up finishes.
To find that old AIAW data, luckily the NCAA.org site had some old pdf scans of older text pages - I had to do a search of Wilson's name as a head coach by first searching data of her last years at either USC or CoC (after leaving USC as the all-time winning-est HC, Wilson was an asst. coach of the Seattle Reign of the defunct ABL in their last years, then returned to CoC as HC to coach again for 9 more years until retiring for good.
Then I was able to select Wilson's name link, and it gave me her head coaching history including the AIAW years, and THEN I was able to click on those links to get the old AIAW data.
For mathematicians, researchers, and international intelligence wonks who love to pour over the minutiae of data, it would be a fun endeavor. I am not amongst those communities, however. I did complete my task though.
The real old data, unless it has current-day relevance like early NCAA stats/data of hard-core stats like scoring, rebounding, etc. just gets lost to the winds of time. Spending time to scan the old data into modern-day technological media costs money, and if it's perceived to be data that no one will care much about, they just by-pass doing it. They may still have it archived somewhere in some old dusty warehouse storage, but after a length of time I'm sure it gets destroyed as a fire hazard.
You're left hoping to find some old-timer who may still have some old media guides or press guides of the older seasons, who can scan pages for you. Good luck.......
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 04/19/21 8:06 pm ::: |
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There's a great deal of scans of team summaries at http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/careersearch
That's what I've been using to compile most of the data I've been using for my sheets. I would have much rather found the RPI used for selection. I talked to Mel Greenberg, who has been covering WCBB forever, and his best recollection was that the NCAA didn't publish the women's RPI figures publicly until the late 90's.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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Phil
Joined: 22 Oct 2011 Posts: 1275
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Posted: 05/20/21 7:29 pm ::: |
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Speaking of Wikipedia, I concur that Conway Gamecock did an excellent job working on the article about Nancy Wilson.
If anyone else has ever considered contributing to Wikipedia, I can help make that process easy.
As an example check out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sphilbrick/Kamilla_Cardoso
This is a draft of an article about Kamilla_Cardoso. I assigned myself the more technical aspects of the article creation am am looking for a volunteer to provide some of the text
In this example, some pieces of the article are largely complete. Anything in italics identifies the types of discussions that should be added and I identified myself if I thought I was the best person to work on but added (volunteer) in case someone else is willing to work on it.
It doesn't have to be Kamilla. if a fan of any team wants to work on an article about a player or coach that doesn't yet exist, I can create such a template them work with you to get it ready.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 11/23/21 10:18 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
I've noticed a few of things working on these 80's results
1 There were far more games between D-I and lower divisions than there are now
2 There were a lot more independents than there are now
3 There's more data missing than I expected. US International University in San Diego, for example, was a D-I school for a while. The school no longer exists, and neither does any official record of its results. |
4 Teams played fewer conference games that they do now |
5 In the very early days after the NCAA take over there were a surprisingly high number of games against Canadian schools
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 11/26/21 1:06 pm ::: |
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Note that "complete" means other than this ever growing mountain of anomalies I've got to research...
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 01/11/22 2:39 pm ::: |
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I am looking for WBB media guides from the following schools, specifically looking for year-by-year results:
Alabama State
Grambling
Howard
Jackson State
Mississippi Valley State
North Carolina A&T
Queens College
Robert Morris
Southern University
VCU
I don't know why HBCUs are so prone to make this stuff difficult to find
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 01/11/22 6:39 pm ::: |
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Scratch Alabama State from the list, unless the media guide is from the 1983-84 season
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IM in OC
Joined: 25 Mar 2009 Posts: 999 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: 01/11/22 9:50 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
I am looking for WBB media guides from the following schools, specifically looking for year-by-year results:
Alabama State
Grambling
Howard
Jackson State
Mississippi Valley State
North Carolina A&T
Queens College
Robert Morris
Southern University
VCU
I don't know why HBCUs are so prone to make this stuff difficult to find |
If you are looking for Queens College CUNY in Flushing NY try this link
https://queensknights.com/documents/2021/6/17/Women_s_Basketball_Record_Updated_2021_.pdf
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18043 Location: Queens
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Posted: 01/11/22 10:43 pm ::: |
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How far back are we talking here? That QC record book, for example, is very thorough- to a point, at which point it falls into the abyss. Is this "okay, let me see if I can find a Google angle that pilight the loremaster somehow missed" level of searching or "do we know anyone at Tulane?" level of searching?
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 01/11/22 11:36 pm ::: |
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Looking for 80's and 90's, particularly around and right after the AIAW/NCAA switch.
Quote: |
Is this "okay, let me see if I can find a Google angle that pilight the loremaster somehow missed" level of searching or "do we know anyone at Tulane?" level of searching? |
I was thinking "I've got a physical copy I can scan for you" level.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 01/13/22 6:02 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
I am looking for WBB media guides from the following schools, specifically looking for year-by-year results:
Alabama State
Grambling
Howard
Jackson State
Mississippi Valley State
North Carolina A&T
Queens College
Robert Morris
Southern University
VCU
I don't know why HBCUs are so prone to make this stuff difficult to find |
So I emailed the sports info departments of these schools. VCU responded quickly with exactly what I was looking for. Queens College asked me what I wanted the info for, as if I was asking for state secrets rather than something 98% of schools offer freely on their websites. Mississippi Valley responded, saying they didn't have the info immediately available but would get back to me. North Carolina A&T sent back an automated response that "email correspondence is subject to Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties", which I'm not concerned about. The rest have not answered so far.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18043 Location: Queens
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Posted: 01/13/22 9:38 pm ::: |
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QC probably doesn't want to admit they don't have the info. My rudimentary Googling led to something called the Cosmopolitan Conference for some of those years, which appears to have fallen off the face of the earth, and the record book linked on the QC website does state that their information is incomplete.
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 01/13/22 10:33 pm ::: |
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Several established conferences didn't sponsor WBB when the NCAA began governance. The Pac 10, for example, didn't sponsor any women's sports until 1986. Schools that were otherwise associated with those more well known conferences formed women's only conferences or sometimes WBB only conferences. The Cosmopolitan was one such conference. According to this article in the Fordham Ram the 82-83 membership consisted of Fairleigh Dickinson, Marist, Monmouth, Montclair State, Queens College, and Wagner. Fordham themselves were in the Metro Atlantic, which did sponsor WBB along with men's sports. LIU and Siena were also members of the Cosmopolitan at one time.
I wrote back to QC explaining my project, maybe that will spur some action.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18043 Location: Queens
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Posted: 01/13/22 10:47 pm ::: |
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Right, I found references to it, a list of its members, and an approximate timeframe of its existence, but it doesn't even have a Wikipedia article.
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 01/14/22 4:32 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
I am looking for WBB media guides from the following schools, specifically looking for year-by-year results:
Alabama State
Grambling
Howard
Jackson State
Mississippi Valley State
North Carolina A&T
Queens College
Robert Morris
Southern University
VCU
I don't know why HBCUs are so prone to make this stuff difficult to find |
So I emailed the sports info departments of these schools. VCU responded quickly with exactly what I was looking for. Queens College asked me what I wanted the info for, as if I was asking for state secrets rather than something 98% of schools offer freely on their websites. Mississippi Valley responded, saying they didn't have the info immediately available but would get back to me. North Carolina A&T sent back an automated response that "email correspondence is subject to Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties", which I'm not concerned about. The rest have not answered so far. |
Got an email from Robert Morris today saying they would look into it and get back to me.
_________________ I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
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