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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix
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 Posted: 01/28/20 10:28 am ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
If, as Richyy says, sign-and-trade deals involving UFAs are permitted, then I wonder if Phoenix and Dallas would consider:
--- Phoenix gets Skylar Diggins-Smith
--- Dallas gets #5 pick in the 2020 WNBA Draft and Leilani Mitchell. |
Permitted, but there's no actual point to them unless the player's demanding 4 years and/or the 215k max. You're not giving either of those to Mitchell, so there's no reason to acquire her via sign-and-trade. If Dallas wanted her, and she wanted to go there, they could just sign her as a UFA.
If Phoenix is one of Diggins-Smith's preferred destinations then I guess #5 and one of the youngsters might get you in the conversation but there's no reason for Mitchell to be involved. |
I agree with you, to the extent that it is not necessary for Mitchell to be included. That being said, here are reasons (some better than others) to throw in Mitchell, looking at possible factors for both teams:
--- Taking on Diggins' salary (presumably at or near the max), plus having to re-sign Bonner and Griner, might not make Mitchell feasible (though it can work, it is not ideal for Phoenix, especially if Bonner, Griner, and Diggins will be on multi-year deals).
--- Having three PGs - January, Diggins-Smith, and Mitchell - with none of whom is an ideal candidate for playing off the ball (surprisingly, Mitchell is the best there as a catch and shoot three-point shooter) or being a good defender of bigger SGs is not ideal for the Mercury.
--- Dallas can market having a current MIP winner as part of the trade. Given how Cambage wanted out and now Diggins wants out, being able to sell *something* to media/fans is not a bad thing.
--- Dallas actually needs a PG/playmaking. The Wings ranked last in assists per game and 11th in made field goals (plus 11th in field goal percentage). If Arike is going to be ball-dominant, Mitchell works as a secondary facilitator, but someone who can be the recipient of a pass for a catch-and-shoot three. And since Dallas also ranked 10th in three-point field goal percentage, this is an area of need as well.
--- With the fifth pick from Phoenix (or the ninth pick, which Dallas also has, in addition to the #2 pick), Dallas might take a PG. But is she ready to start from day one? Mitchell at least gives the team a viable WNBA starter and someone to (hopefully) mentor a rookie PG.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 12537
Location: Dallas , Texas
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| Posted: 01/28/20 10:44 am ::: |
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| PHX is a pretty low probability .
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shontay33
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 471
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| Posted: 01/28/20 12:06 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
If, as Richyy says, sign-and-trade deals involving UFAs are permitted, then I wonder if Phoenix and Dallas would consider:
--- Phoenix gets Skylar Diggins-Smith
--- Dallas gets #5 pick in the 2020 WNBA Draft and Leilani Mitchell. |
Permitted, but there's no actual point to them unless the player's demanding 4 years and/or the 215k max. You're not giving either of those to Mitchell, so there's no reason to acquire her via sign-and-trade. If Dallas wanted her, and she wanted to go there, they could just sign her as a UFA.
If Phoenix is one of Diggins-Smith's preferred destinations then I guess #5 and one of the youngsters might get you in the conversation but there's no reason for Mitchell to be involved. |
I think Skylar may end up in NY. Not sure if the salary has to match in a trade like the NBA but I think if Dallas makes a trade with NY, they might be better off with either Hartley or Nurse. NY may want to unload Hartley or Nurse if they are definatley going with Ionsceu at #1.
Not sure about PHX as a fit. If they do take Diggins-Smith, then they will not be able to sign DB and another player at the other wing spot that they really need. PHX will more than likely stay in tact and just add peices via free agency like they have mostly done.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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Location: London
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| Posted: 01/28/20 12:22 pm ::: |
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There's no salary-matching rule in the WNBA. You can trade the rights to a Euro who's never set foot in America for three max players if you want, as long as both teams stay under the team salary cap.
Cam, none of the stuff you mentioned eliminates the fact that Dallas can just sign Mitchell as a free agent if they want her. It makes no sense for them to trade for her. UFA's being sign-and-traded should remain distinct outliers that only happen with star-level players in a position to demand extra considerations. |
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 01/28/20 12:23 pm ::: |
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Paying Bonner, Griner, and Diggins half the PHX salary cap ($645K) seems highly unlikely to me.
If Bonner decides to move on to another team at a lower salary (also seems unlikely to me), then maybe Diggins is a possibility. But Diggins in PHX? Why?
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 12537
Location: Dallas , Texas
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| Posted: 01/28/20 12:59 pm ::: |
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| SDS has big specific destinations, again......
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SpaceJunkie
Joined: 10 Sep 2012
Posts: 4241
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: 01/28/20 1:13 pm ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| SDS has big specific destinations, again...... |
According to my thesaurus
Big = New York or LA
Or what is your definition of "big"?
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DFWub2018
Joined: 24 Aug 2018
Posts: 1047
Location: Dallas/Ft. Worth
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| Posted: 01/28/20 1:30 pm ::: |
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| SpaceJunkie wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| SDS has big specific destinations, again...... |
According to my thesaurus
Big = New York or LA
Or what is your definition of "big"? |
NYC because Jay Z told her too!!!
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 01/28/20 1:44 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| Cam, none of the stuff you mentioned eliminates the fact that Dallas can just sign Mitchell as a free agent if they want her. It makes no sense for them to trade for her. UFA's being sign-and-traded should remain distinct outliers that only happen with star-level players in a position to demand extra considerations. |
Certainly true.
And since Diggins as a star-level player who received the core designation, but has publicly demanded a trade, she is in a position to demand extra considerations (destination, etc.).
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Davis4632
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 01/28/20 3:14 pm ::: |
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| Dallas has in a point guard in Moriah Jefferson if she decides to play this season.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 01/28/20 3:20 pm ::: |
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| Davis4632 wrote: |
| Dallas has a point guard in Moriah Jefferson if she decides to play this season. |
Hey, somebody’s paying attention!
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 01/28/20 4:09 pm ::: |
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| Davis4632 wrote: |
| Dallas has in a point guard in Moriah Jefferson if she decides to play this season. |
Maybe she can take out another star player
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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| Posted: 01/28/20 4:22 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Davis4632 wrote: |
| Dallas has in a point guard in Moriah Jefferson if she decides to play this season. |
Maybe she can take out another star player |
I still vividly remember how in that already-bonkers game, she recklessly dove for that loose ball and smashed right into McCoughtry's leg. Really crazy how Little Ole Moriah Jefferson, all 5'6 of her, kinda sorta single-handedly 'caused' the entire present-day collapse of the Atlanta Dream's on-the-court product.  If I were a hardcore Dream fan, I'd low-key want her banned from the League forever tbh. 
Anyways, as per usual, I just hope these big names like McCoughtry, Diggins-Smith, etc. don't end up on a team that already has a 'ship. I also hope for Dallas' sake that they can start trading all these pieces they have for a (super)star player that wants to be/doesn't mind being there. They can only keep 12, and knowing Agler, he's not gonna want to put more rookies/inexperienced players on his roster much longer.
Speaking of Agler, I'm gonna speak on what I remember from his time with the Storm. Within his system, he has always preferred mobile posts that can rotate/help/recover quickly on defense. (He has also had an affinity for scoring guards, which I think is one big reason why Ogunbowale had the green light as much as she did and will continue to have while Agler's there, with another big one of course being lack of healthy talent last year.) I don't think a "power center" like Kalani Brown would be a fit on his roster, and too I think Imani McGee-Stafford won't make the roster - if she even re-signs. If Dallas drafts Lauren Cox (which I still think they will & should), I actually see her playing more C than PF in his system.
Last edited by Stormeo on 01/28/20 5:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 01/28/20 4:56 pm ::: |
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I guess nobody can remember what or who caused Brunson to “retire”?
Cox and Brown would have automatic chemistry. That’s great for winning.
Cox and Brown are both from a championship team in Baylor, a Texas school. That’s great for marketing.
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Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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Iluvacc
Joined: 11 Jun 2005
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 01/28/20 6:52 pm ::: |
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| Stormeo wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Davis4632 wrote: |
| Dallas has in a point guard in Moriah Jefferson if she decides to play this season. |
Maybe she can take out another star player |
I still vividly remember how in that already-bonkers game, she recklessly dove for that loose ball and smashed right into McCoughtry's leg. Really crazy how Little Ole Moriah Jefferson, all 5'6 of her, kinda sorta single-handedly 'caused' the entire present-day collapse of the Atlanta Dream's on-the-court product. :( If I were a hardcore Dream fan, I'd low-key want her banned from the League forever tbh. :? |
You know what else isn't that big, all things considered? A softball. Let me throw one at your knee, as hard as I can, when you can't see it coming, and you're not braced for it, and let's see what happens?
Ultimately, you can blame Atlanta Dream management for the way that they utterly collapsed. But it's as simple as this: they built a team that, as constructed, could only work if they had a healthy Angel McCoughtry on it. And then, because of Moriah Jefferson's recklessness, they no longer had a healthy Angel McCoughtry. What has happened since, including Atlanta's utter failure to correct their flawed roster, has been completely predictable.
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miller40
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 01/28/20 7:25 pm ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| SDS has big specific destinations, again...... |
Indianapolis, clearly, is this big destination. 😂 😉
Brooklyn with Charles and Ionescu would be fun.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 16359
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 01/28/20 7:30 pm ::: |
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| miller40 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| SDS has big specific destinations, again...... |
Indianapolis, clearly, is this big destination. 😂 😉
Brooklyn with Charles and Ionescu would be fun. |
I wonder about Chicago. It is a big city, a team on the upswing and close to South Bend (much closer than Indy). Would the Sky bring her in even with the Vanderquigs?
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 01/28/20 7:38 pm ::: |
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| PUmatty wrote: |
| miller40 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| SDS has big specific destinations, again...... |
Indianapolis, clearly, is this big destination. 😂 😉
Brooklyn with Charles and Ionescu would be fun. |
I wonder about Chicago. It is a big city, a team on the upswing and close to South Bend (much closer than Indy). Would the Sky bring her in even with the Vanderquigs? |
No, they want to keep as many players on the current team as possible. They have a lot of players to sign at the new elevated rates.
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Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 01/28/20 7:43 pm ::: |
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| PUmatty wrote: |
| miller40 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| SDS has big specific destinations, again...... |
Indianapolis, clearly, is this big destination. 😂 😉
Brooklyn with Charles and Ionescu would be fun. |
I wonder about Chicago. It is a big city, a team on the upswing and close to South Bend (much closer than Indy). Would the Sky bring her in even with the Vanderquigs? |
Quigley could come off the bench, a Sloot/Diggins-Smith back-court could be pretty functional on both ends of the floor
My question would be what is the return Chicago has a lot of too little or too much options IMO and with Dallas already having two first round picks including the #9 pick I don't see #8 being much of a needle pusher
the one I have come up with is
SDS and #2 for Deshields and #8
At this point I rank Deshields higher than SDS because of her age and size allowing her to play the 2 and the 3 so a straight up trade seems unlikely, but then even with getting the #8 back would Dallas be willing to give up Diggins and a the #2 pick for Deshields and a a second shot in the first round at a bench player between picks 8 and 9. Deshields might make it worth it a Deshields/Ogunbowale/Stevens core for the future id pretty nice, but then would Chicago consider giving up Deshields at all when Diamond has already become an all-star level player in Chicago and is a healthy portion of their big improvement last season, even if it meant Diggins and say Cox?
otherwise you are looking at say
SDS for Copper (or Williams or KLS )and the #8 pick (or the 2021 1st round pick) is that enough?
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 01/28/20 9:57 pm ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| miller40 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| SDS has big specific destinations, again...... |
Indianapolis, clearly, is this big destination. 😂 😉
Brooklyn with Charles and Ionescu would be fun. |
I wonder about Chicago. It is a big city, a team on the upswing and close to South Bend (much closer than Indy). Would the Sky bring her in even with the Vanderquigs? |
Quigley could come off the bench, a Sloot/Diggins-Smith back-court could be pretty functional on both ends of the floor
My question would be what is the return Chicago has a lot of too little or too much options IMO and with Dallas already having two first round picks including the #9 pick I don't see #8 being much of a needle pusher
the one I have come up with is
SDS and #2 for Deshields and #8
At this point I rank Deshields higher than SDS because of her age and size allowing her to play the 2 and the 3 so a straight up trade seems unlikely, but then even with getting the #8 back would Dallas be willing to give up Diggins and a the #2 pick for Deshields and a a second shot in the first round at a bench player between picks 8 and 9. Deshields might make it worth it a Deshields/Ogunbowale/Stevens core for the future id pretty nice, but then would Chicago consider giving up Deshields at all when Diamond has already become an all-star level player in Chicago and is a healthy portion of their big improvement last season, even if it meant Diggins and say Cox?
otherwise you are looking at say
SDS for Copper (or Williams or KLS )and the #8 pick (or the 2021 1st round pick) is that enough? |
If Diggins says she will only go one place, she will be traded far, far, far below market value. That's what happens with star players in these scenarios.
If option is Samuelson and No. 8 or nothing, history shows us that Dallas will take Samuelson and the No. 8.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 24355
Location: London
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| Posted: 01/28/20 11:09 pm ::: |
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| PUmatty wrote: |
If Diggins says she will only go one place, she will be traded far, far, far below market value. That's what happens with star players in these scenarios.
If option is Samuelson and No. 8 or nothing, history shows us that Dallas will take Samuelson and the No. 8. |
The return isn't always complete trash in these situations. The problem, often, is that the return for a silver dollar is usually a bunch of change, and even if you got four quarters that's not worth as much in a sport like basketball. Delle Donne only had one destination in mind and they got back two young players who are probably going to sign for over 300k between them this offseason, and the #2 overall pick. Chatman got offered decent packages for Fowles but ended up taking a crappy one. Cambage would've gotten Dallas the #1 overall pick (plus other stuff) if they didn't wait for so long to decide to make the deal.
I agree that the return inevitably trends down if everyone knows the player will only go to a certain place, but it's also still about making the right deal. Teams have screwed this up a lot. |
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mavcarter
#NATC
Joined: 02 Sep 2010
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| Posted: 01/28/20 11:21 pm ::: |
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So question, would it be legal if Dallas ignored offers until the 16th day of the season and traded Diggins-Smith to their preferred destination?_________________
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| Or maybe said poster should quit being a nuisance when people don’t agree? |
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 01/29/20 12:08 am ::: |
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| mavcarter wrote: |
| So question, would it be legal if Dallas ignored offers until the 16th day of the season and traded Diggins-Smith to their preferred destination? |
The key thing that affects things is whether she signs a contract or not beforehand. Because the only bit of the CBA that mentions the 15th day of the regular season says:
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| (c) No player who signs a Contract as a Free Agent or Draft Rookie may be traded before the later of (i) two (2) weeks following the date on which such Contract was signed or (ii) the fifteenth (15th) day of the Regular Season covered by the Contract, unless such player consents in writing to such trade. |
I think it's pretty clear that if she doesn't sign anything - whether the core qualifying offer or a different contract offer - then that section doesn't apply.
The very next part of the CBA says:
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| (d) Exclusive negotiating rights to a player (other than draft rights, rights to Reserved Players and rights to suspended players with no playing services remaining in the Player Contracts) may only be traded with the written consent of the player. |
Which I believe is what would be relevant to a Diggins who hasn't signed a contract. Because Dallas would still have exclusive negotiating rights to her, but I don't think she'd be suspended. And as you can see, that section says Diggins would still have to agree to any trade.
So I believe that unless Diggins signs a contract, she'd have to consent to any trade, at any point. But that's based on my interpretation of a bunch of stuff written in legalese, so I'm far from 100% certain. Of course, in the real world, teams are going to be much less likely to agree a deal for her anyway if her agent is quietly telling them she doesn't want to go there. |
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mavcarter
#NATC
Joined: 02 Sep 2010
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| Posted: 01/29/20 1:33 am ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| mavcarter wrote: |
| So question, would it be legal if Dallas ignored offers until the 16th day of the season and traded Diggins-Smith to their preferred destination? |
The key thing that affects things is whether she signs a contract or not beforehand. Because the only bit of the CBA that mentions the 15th day of the regular season says:
| Quote: |
| (c) No player who signs a Contract as a Free Agent or Draft Rookie may be traded before the later of (i) two (2) weeks following the date on which such Contract was signed or (ii) the fifteenth (15th) day of the Regular Season covered by the Contract, unless such player consents in writing to such trade. |
I think it's pretty clear that if she doesn't sign anything - whether the core qualifying offer or a different contract offer - then that section doesn't apply.
The very next part of the CBA says:
| Quote: |
| (d) Exclusive negotiating rights to a player (other than draft rights, rights to Reserved Players and rights to suspended players with no playing services remaining in the Player Contracts) may only be traded with the written consent of the player. |
Which I believe is what would be relevant to a Diggins who hasn't signed a contract. Because Dallas would still have exclusive negotiating rights to her, but I don't think she'd be suspended. And as you can see, that section says Diggins would still have to agree to any trade.
So I believe that unless Diggins signs a contract, she'd have to consent to any trade, at any point. But that's based on my interpretation of a bunch of stuff written in legalese, so I'm far from 100% certain. Of course, in the real world, teams are going to be much less likely to agree a deal for her anyway if her agent is quietly telling them she doesn't want to go there. |
You the GOAT, Richyyy._________________
| wrote: |
| Or maybe said poster should quit being a nuisance when people don’t agree? |
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