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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 11/10/19 12:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
How do you define "genuine" championship contender? You're essentially asking for certainty in a speculative discussion. I said pretty clearly that NY wouldn't be the favorite, but they'd have a chance if they could reach 20 wins. I was piggybacking off NYL_WNBA_FAN's point that franchise-type players improve their team by 6-7 wins in the first year. That makes NY around a .500 team just by adding Sabrina. OK, lets say that's optimistic, But NY can still bring in help at center, hire a new coach who has a clue, and then add a healthy Angel. Couldn't that realistically get you to 20 wins? Remember, Chicago wion 20 games this year. They improved 7 games basically by changing coaches. Their big player move was to add Jantel Lavender for 23 games before she got hurt.

To me, a 20 win team would have a realistic chance. The key is having players who can make big shots at big moments. McCoughtry is that kind of player. If Ionescu can carry over her clutch ability from college, then we have two players like that. I believe all those Laimbeer teams bogged down because they didn't have a crunch-time player. Prince could make big shots during the regular season, but she would mostly disappear in the playoffs. Charles was good for consistency, but she wasn't great at making the game-winning or tying shot. So, if you could have two clutch players in Angel and Sabrina, then the Liberty should be in business. Plus Tina and Nurse are there to provide support over the course of a whole game. I see Durr as the one who comes off the bench, along with Johannes and Allen. That gives you scoring depth off the bench. The one big question is if NY can find a coach who can get them to play half-decent defense. Otherwise, this whole scenario falls flat. McCoughtry is a plus in this regard because when she is healthy and motivated, Angel is a great defender. She can help set the tone. But the key remains the coach. Right now, none of us have a clue what's happening with their search.


I appreciate this answer. My standard for "genuine championship contender" is higher than having "a realistic chance," but it's subjective. I can't offer a precise standard. I respect what you're saying about what might be possible in 2020 with Angel and, importantly, a really good coach. I'm not convinced, but I see the case you're making .

I completely agree with what you've said here about the Laimbeer teams. That's why I never saw them as a genuine championship contender.


J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 11/10/19 12:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fist off I'm all for a young developing team that I can root for so I am not all in on the Angel idea but what I would say is

instead of Bob's question of does adding Angel and Ionescu (since that is already a given and adding Angel doesn't happen in a vacuum) to our current team make them a championship contender 20/21?

I would reword the question to does adding Angel and Ionescu to the current team give NY the best chance to win a championship that it has had in the past 10 years? the answer to that question is yes, that doesn't mean we will win, it just means that the team below would be the closest thing we will have had to a contender in recent history and possibly ever

Ionescu/(Johannes)/Hartley
Nurse/Durr
McCoughtry/R. Allen
Charles/FA/Gray
Stokes/Zahui B

(free agent post and pick #13 at least until Johannes arrives)

There in no guarantee that if we spend 2020 and 2021 developing our youth that come 2022 we will have a contender. Injuries happen, players may sit out, Charles is already moving away from her prime 3 seasons from now she may be out of the picture so we will have a great perimeter but have to rebuild the front court. Yes it is possible that in the next season or two we could get another marquee post and free agents who want to play with Ionescu and Charles that could lead to a championship team but in 2020/21 adding McCoughtry to a core of Charles, Ionescu, Nurse and Durr is the best chance we have at a championship.

So then the question becomes what does the GM want? Are they in a rebuilding process looking a few season in the future when Ionescu/Nurse and Durr will be in their prime? Or do they want to put together a team that can win now (while Charles is still a force) as they move into their new venue? I don't know the answer but if it is closer to the latter than I can't imagine them not signing McCoughty (if possible), or even trading for her if the price isn't too high.


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 11/10/19 5:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The odds of a speed player whose whole game is dependent on open court slashing being 100% after a torn ACL are slim. The odds of a player who’s used to having the ball in her hands more than 50% of the time deferring to Ionescu are slimmer. The odds of her embracing team chemistry that is focused on younger players is slimmer still.

She’s not worth it. She’s a once great player who’s unlikely to be what she was. But even if she is great again she’d be joining a team with a player already used to shooting 20 shots a game. How many veterans are we going to ask to change their games? And if we get Ionescu, best believe these players are going to have to change the way they play. Ionescu is going to require such a heavy pick and roll emphasis that you’re not going to see Tina or Angel play they way they’ve been used to playing within that type of framework. Angel particularly.

Angel is used to being a primary ball handler and shooter. It’ll never work. Like zero chance. This is a totally different team from what she’s played on before.

And in the process we’d be benching Durr, who we picked second a year ago while using a max slot on a player who’s probably past her prime? Let’s work on filling the C position with that money instead.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 11/10/19 9:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
The odds of a speed player whose whole game is dependent on open court slashing being 100% after a torn ACL are slim. The odds of a player who’s used to having the ball in her hands more than 50% of the time deferring to Ionescu are slimmer. The odds of her embracing team chemistry that is focused on younger players is slimmer still.

She’s not worth it. She’s a once great player who’s unlikely to be what she was. But even if she is great again she’d be joining a team with a player already used to shooting 20 shots a game. How many veterans are we going to ask to change their games? And if we get Ionescu, best believe these players are going to have to change the way they play. Ionescu is going to require such a heavy pick and roll emphasis that you’re not going to see Tina or Angel play they way they’ve been used to playing within that type of framework. Angel particularly.

Angel is used to being a primary ball handler and shooter. It’ll never work. Like zero chance. This is a totally different team from what she’s played on before.

And in the process we’d be benching Durr, who we picked second a year ago while using a max slot on a player who’s probably past her prime? Let’s work on filling the C position with that money instead.


I love the way you're always 100% sure you're right. Wink



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PostPosted: 11/10/19 11:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
The odds of a speed player whose whole game is dependent on open court slashing being 100% after a torn ACL are slim. The odds of a player who’s used to having the ball in her hands more than 50% of the time deferring to Ionescu are slimmer. The odds of her embracing team chemistry that is focused on younger players is slimmer still.

She’s not worth it. She’s a once great player who’s unlikely to be what she was. But even if she is great again she’d be joining a team with a player already used to shooting 20 shots a game. How many veterans are we going to ask to change their games? And if we get Ionescu, best believe these players are going to have to change the way they play. Ionescu is going to require such a heavy pick and roll emphasis that you’re not going to see Tina or Angel play they way they’ve been used to playing within that type of framework. Angel particularly.

Angel is used to being a primary ball handler and shooter. It’ll never work. Like zero chance. This is a totally different team from what she’s played on before.

And in the process we’d be benching Durr, who we picked second a year ago while using a max slot on a player who’s probably past her prime? Let’s work on filling the C position with that money instead.


I love the way you're always 100% sure you're right. Wink


Lol. Not always. I just don’t think there’s any chance Angel evolves her game in a way that constitutes fitting in rather than trying to be what she has always been. My concern is that it behooves the team to tone down Tina’s role. If Angel does continue to be a star and plays the way she always has, that means we’re going to be asking Tina to play differently, Nurse to play differently and the rookie Ionescu to sacrifice a ton of touches. That’s not even accounting for Durr, who already deferred mightily to Tina last year. When do we extract whatever potential there is out of the younger players without letting them play the way they’ve played in the past to be at their best?

Angel can impact defensively but she’s also often been a freelancer on D. She doesn’t have Sancho or Williams to protect the rim here like she did in Atlanta either. Hopefully Stokes is that.

If we can fill the C position and Angel is willing to come off the bench and fit in then I’d be for it. Would she? Her style of play doesn’t suggest that. To me at least.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 11/10/19 11:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Lol. Not always. I just don’t think there’s any chance Angel evolves her game in a way that constitutes fitting in rather than trying to be what she has always been. My concern is that it behooves the team to tone down Tina’s role. If Angel does continue to be a star and plays the way she always has, that means we’re going to be asking Tina to play differently, Nurse to play differently and the rookie Ionescu to sacrifice a ton of touches. That’s not even accounting for Durr, who already deferred mightily to Tina last year. When do we extract whatever potential there is out of the younger players without letting them play the way they’ve played in the past to be at their best?

Angel can impact defensively but she’s also often been a freelancer on D. She doesn’t have Sancho or Williams to protect the rim here like she did in Atlanta either.


Regarding Angel, there are the obvious questions about her age, health, and recovery from injury. But it's the issue of younger players perhaps "deferring" that I find especially troubling. As you've rightly said, deferring was a problem for Durr in her rookie year. I don't like the idea of a 2020 season in which Ionescu, Durr, Nurse, and Johannes have to consider deferring to TWO aging stars. And in which our coach would have to ask both aging stars to modify their games, take fewer shots, and give serious attention to helping younger players develop.


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 11/10/19 11:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yeah that’s basically my main point. I want a team built around Ionescu being able to hold players accountable sooner rather than later. The best way to do that IMO is to build around Ionescu, Durr and Nurse. Let them grow together. Wright and Tina by Tina’s own admission butted heads when Wright first came in. So it’s fair to ask how Ionescu’s leadership style will be received by Tina as well.

Toss Angel into the mix, where she’s already played with Tina overseas and what’s the core? Tina/Angel or the young players? It’s a question that has to be asked.



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dab44lb



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PostPosted: 11/10/19 11:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I absolutely do not want the 33 year old coming off of knee surgery. Also, in doing this you will have to trade either Durr or Nurse as playing time for one or both will non existent. Angel will also split this team into factions again, especially if they draft Ionescu. I can see friction between those two almost instantaneously. I think Angel is a great player and a WNBA Legend, but frankly I've never wanted her to play on the Liberty.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 11/10/19 11:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If I came off as condescending I totally apologize BTW. Wasn’t my intent at all. There’s a certain, kind of anxiety level I have about the team. There’s not been the kind of stability between the moves, the performance, coaching change etc. The thought of anything that interferes with long-term stability is something I just do not want at all.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 11/10/19 1:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Yeah that’s basically my main point. I want a team built around Ionescu being able to hold players accountable sooner rather than later. The best way to do that IMO is to build around Ionescu, Durr and Nurse. Let them grow together. Wright and Tina by Tina’s own admission butted heads when Wright first came in. So it’s fair to ask how Ionescu’s leadership style will be received by Tina as well.

Toss Angel into the mix, where she’s already played with Tina overseas and what’s the core? Tina/Angel or the young players? It’s a question that has to be asked.


I am hoping that Tina Charles will approach 2020 and beyond with the attitude: these young players are my last chance to win a WNBA title. I've got to help them all I can, at times "defer" to them, and hope that they'll prove as good as their billing.

We've all seen that Tina Charles at her peak, with the team being HER team, hasn't won a championship. I'm not blaming Tina in the slightest; the other players just weren't good enough. I hope that history leads Tina to conclude that insisting the 2020 team be HER team isn't the best way to proceed.


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 11/10/19 2:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Yeah that’s basically my main point. I want a team built around Ionescu being able to hold players accountable sooner rather than later. The best way to do that IMO is to build around Ionescu, Durr and Nurse. Let them grow together. Wright and Tina by Tina’s own admission butted heads when Wright first came in. So it’s fair to ask how Ionescu’s leadership style will be received by Tina as well.

Toss Angel into the mix, where she’s already played with Tina overseas and what’s the core? Tina/Angel or the young players? It’s a question that has to be asked.


I am hoping that Tina Charles will approach 2020 and beyond with the attitude: these young players are my last chance to win a WNBA title. I've got to help them all I can, at times "defer" to them, and hope that they'll prove as good as their billing.

We've all seen that Tina Charles at her peak, with the team being HER team, hasn't won a championship. I'm not blaming Tina in the slightest; the other players just weren't good enough. I hope that history leads Tina to conclude that insisting the 2020 team be HER team isn't the best way to proceed.


Agree. And also for some self preservation in terms of longevity. Fewer points at better efficiency can help the team while having her withstand less of a pounding.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 11/10/19 4:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Agree. And also for some self preservation in terms of longevity. Fewer points at better efficiency can help the team while having her withstand less of a pounding.


Yes. And our new coach should protect Charles by watching her minutes carefully.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 11/11/19 1:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The floor for the Westchester Knicks got damaged so WCC had to cancel their season opener on Saturday. We won't have to worry about the arena anymore, but I thought this bit of information about costs was interesting:

Quote:
The County Center once served as the home court for the Liberty in the Women's National Basketball Association. The Liberty's one-year contract with Westchester ended in October 2018, with the team paying Westchester a facility fee of $7,315 per game, plus a utility charge of $525. The team moved to Brooklyn.


https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/westchester/2019/11/10/westchester-knicks-court-damage-county-center-season-opener/2554909001/

The writer obviously doesn't know that the Liberty stayed an extra year, but still it's useful to see real numbers. The rate works out to $7,840 per game for rent and utilities or $133,280 per year for 17 home games. The only numbers I'ver ever seen for MSG was $200,000 per event back in 1990.



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PostPosted: 11/11/19 1:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In other random news that I thought might interest some people here, in the last few minutes of his most recent podcast at ESPN, Brian Windhorst went back to one of his favourite topics - the ongoing feud between James Dolan and Steve Balmer. And as part of detailing the latest bits of that Windhorst brought up something I was unaware of - Dolan is one of the primary backers of the group that's currently redeveloping KeyArena in Seattle. So Dolan may be out of the WNBA, but tangentially he's still reasonably closely connected.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 11/11/19 9:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
The floor for the Westchester Knicks got damaged so WCC had to cancel their season opener on Saturday. We won't have to worry about the arena anymore, but I thought this bit of information about costs was interesting:

Quote:
The County Center once served as the home court for the Liberty in the Women's National Basketball Association. The Liberty's one-year contract with Westchester ended in October 2018, with the team paying Westchester a facility fee of $7,315 per game, plus a utility charge of $525. The team moved to Brooklyn.


https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/westchester/2019/11/10/westchester-knicks-court-damage-county-center-season-opener/2554909001/

The writer obviously doesn't know that the Liberty stayed an extra year, but still it's useful to see real numbers. The rate works out to $7,840 per game for rent and utilities or $133,280 per year for 17 home games. The only numbers I'ver ever seen for MSG was $200,000 per event back in 1990.


The Westchester Knicks' game tonight is being played at MSG. That dump called WCC needs to close or have a complete renovation done.

https://westchester.gleague.nba.com/news/westchester-knicks-to-play-at-madison-square-garden-tomorrow/



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 11/11/19 9:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
In other random news that I thought might interest some people here, in the last few minutes of his most recent podcast at ESPN, Brian Windhorst went back to one of his favourite topics - the ongoing feud between James Dolan and Steve Balmer. And as part of detailing the latest bits of that Windhorst brought up something I was unaware of - Dolan is one of the primary backers of the group that's currently redeveloping KeyArena in Seattle. So Dolan may be out of the WNBA, but tangentially he's still reasonably closely connected.


Perhaps a bitter irony for the women who own the Seattle Storm. I'd read that it was their opposition that kept Hideous Lord Jimmy from making sexual harasser Isiah a part-owner of the Liberty.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 11/11/19 11:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Given the way Sabrina Ionescu played against the U.S. team--and watching her talk to her teammates in the huddle, with no coach present--can we revise the WNBA calendar? Hold the draft on Tuesday. Begin preseason games on Wednesday. Begin regular season games on Saturday. Ionescu can be the Liberty's player-coach. Smile


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PostPosted: 11/11/19 11:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

That would even beat Dave DeBusschere, who became player-coach of the Detroit Pistons at age 24. Of course, Dave might have done it earlier too if he hadn't been distracted by his other career pitching for the White Sox.



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PostPosted: 11/11/19 12:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
That would even beat Dave DeBusschere, who became player-coach of the Detroit Pistons at age 24. Of course, Dave might have done it earlier too if he hadn't been distracted by his other career pitching for the White Sox.


Yes indeed.

One of the great trades in the history of sports: Walt Bellamy and Howard Komives for Dave DeBusschere.


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 11/11/19 2:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Given the way Sabrina Ionescu played against the U.S. team--and watching her talk to her teammates in the huddle, with no coach present--can we revise the WNBA calendar? Hold the draft on Tuesday. Begin preseason games on Wednesday. Begin regular season games on Saturday. Ionescu can be the Liberty's player-coach. Smile


She brings the intangibles of Spoon with the talent of Sue Bird...with much more height and size than Bird. The most talented draftee the Liberty will have had, assuming she is the pick. I'd assume that has been solidified at this point.

I see her as a mix of Bird, Taurasi and Chelsea Gray. She comes close to Gray's size, but a little more mobile. Not Taurasi athletically but has ways to create her own shot in spite of that, kind of like Bird.



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PostPosted: 11/11/19 6:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
Given the way Sabrina Ionescu played against the U.S. team--and watching her talk to her teammates in the huddle, with no coach present--can we revise the WNBA calendar? Hold the draft on Tuesday. Begin preseason games on Wednesday. Begin regular season games on Saturday. Ionescu can be the Liberty's player-coach. Smile


She brings the intangibles of Spoon with the talent of Sue Bird...with much more height and size than Bird. The most talented draftee the Liberty will have had, assuming she is the pick. I'd assume that has been solidified at this point.

I see her as a mix of Bird, Taurasi and Chelsea Gray. She comes close to Gray's size, but a little more mobile. Not Taurasi athletically but has ways to create her own shot in spite of that, kind of like Bird.


I'm obviously a big Sabrina fan, but note she is the least athletic of all three of those players (when they were in their prime). Beating Taurasi off the dribble today is not much of an achievement, and guarding her at this point in the Olympic process is not that difficult either. But Sabrina will be seriously tested by the elite athletes in the WNBA, and will have adjustments to make.



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PostPosted: 11/11/19 7:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't see her being less athletic than Gray at all. Gray isn't fast. She has good hops but uses her size much more than speed or quickness to create the space she needs to score. Not to mention outstanding vision, court awareness and IQ to create for teammates, which in a number of ways makes her the closest comparable to Ionescu. Ionescu is a long-strider (compared to most PGs) who's almost 6 feet tall. She took Collier 1-on-1 with ease in the game Saturday night when Collier switched on her. And Collier is a big-time defender. When they tried Allisha Gray on her, Ionescu moved her like she wasn't even there, and Gray isn't an easy player to move. Ionescu is much stronger than people realize or give her credit for.

Yes Ionescu will have to make adjustments in the pros like all college players, but I doubt seriously teams will defend her with the same aggression that USA attempted (there were numerous occasions where at least 3 players were looking at/helping to defend Ionescu rather than guarding their own players) if it means helping off Durr and Nurse rather than her current Oregon teammates.

For that matter, in the open court, I don't see Bird, even in her prime, as having better foot speed than Ionescu. What Bird had is just about elite level quickness. Ionescu isn't quick like that, but she's almost six feet tall, so she'll find other ways to get to the basket. Being the best three-point shooter of any big prospect in recent memory, people will guard her tight. She will use that to her advantage, particularly given she has some change-of-pace to her game and a pretty impressive handle. Which I am confident she will develop further as she trusts her moves going left. Her left hand is pretty decent. She just has to learn to trust it.

I'll be the first to admit, I'm unabashedly a huge fan. That being said, the first time I saw Ionescu when she was a sophomore, I was like, that's it? I was underwhelmed by the athleticism. But I continued to watch and became more impressed. I honestly didn't expect her to score 30 on Saturday. And I know it's not the strongest USA team but they're still pros, a few of whom remain elite ones. I expected Collier to be able to contain her when they were matched and she couldn't. I expected Gray to be more of a force on her with the physical D that she generally plays. She couldn't handle her either. Projecting to next year, if someone like Collier can't guard her one-on-one, I think other teams are similarly going to have their hands full. And if you try to trap or help, she'll make you pay with her passing. And the Libs have some talented perimeter players to provide support if teams trap her hard.



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PostPosted: 11/11/19 7:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think Ionescu's a better passer than Gray. Gray loves a flashy pass, but I think Ionescu has better general vision, and is more unselfish. Obviously she takes a lot of shots, because she knows she's one of the best offensive options on her team, but she's a creator as much as anything. Gray really likes to call her own number at times, especially down the stretch of games (which is often a good thing, because she's often successful, but that doesn't make it any less true).

I've been saying it while trying not to say it for years now (because it creates an unfair level of expectation), but I still think the closest analogue for Ionescu is Taurasi. Primarily it's the combination of elite scoring ability with that preturnatural passing vision that not many players have, but she's also big for a guard with an ability to create space despite not having great quickness. She could also end up as a creative 2 who still does a lot of the de facto point guard work, like Taurasi's been for much of her career.



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PostPosted: 11/11/19 8:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
I think Ionescu's a better passer than Gray. Gray loves a flashy pass, but I think Ionescu has better general vision, and is more unselfish. Obviously she takes a lot of shots, because she knows she's one of the best offensive options on her team, but she's a creator as much as anything. Gray really likes to call her own number at times, especially down the stretch of games (which is often a good thing, because she's often successful, but that doesn't make it any less true).

I've been saying it while trying not to say it for years now (because it creates an unfair level of expectation), but I still think the closest analogue for Ionescu is Taurasi. Primarily it's the combination of elite scoring ability with that preturnatural passing vision that not many players have, but she's also big for a guard with an ability to create space despite not having great quickness. She could also end up as a creative 2 who still does a lot of the de facto point guard work, like Taurasi's been for much of her career.


I think Ionescu has better vision/passing ability than Gray too. I agree with a lot of what you've wrote. I appreciate Gray's toughness and clutch ability for sure but I do think Ionescu is an even better passer. Ionescu also makes the simple plays when those plays are what makes the offense run...quite well. She scored 30 on Saturday and passed up probably five or six good looks to run the offense properly.



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PostPosted: 11/11/19 10:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
That would even beat Dave DeBusschere, who became player-coach of the Detroit Pistons at age 24. Of course, Dave might have done it earlier too if he hadn't been distracted by his other career pitching for the White Sox.


Gene Conley, in the early 1960's played for both the Boston Red Sox and the Boston Celtics



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