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New York Liberty 2020
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root_thing



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: 08/11/20 11:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hopkins has already made two major changes to his plan from April – or at least what we thought was the plan based on his statements and Kolb’s:

1) The team rarely plays small ball. For the vast majority of time, NY has used two conventional post players.

2) There seems to be more commitment to veterans. All four (Zahui, Stokes, Nurse, Clarendon) have started since game one, and it looks like Walt has used them more in the last couple of games – definitely against Washington.

The one thing that remains constant is New York attempts a lot of 3’s. I don’t expect Zahui to keep shooting this well from distance. Nor do I expect Nurse (21.9/22.2) and Walker (26.5/5.3) to keep shooting this badly overall or for Willoughby to continue finishing inside the paint at 14.3%. There should be some reversion to the mean as the season moves along. It will also be interesting to see if Kea receives significant minutes. If so, who loses PT? Because of Walt's ability to shuffle players around, we’d be looking at all the perimeter players. Based on Net Rating (on court and off), the best by far right now are Clarendon (+39.5) and Odom (+27.9). The worst are Walker (-36.5), Willoughby (-26.7), and Jones (-21.4). However, all the caveats about small sample size, new players, new coaches, new systems, and rookies clearly applies.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 08/11/20 11:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Any player who is a credible threat from three distorts the defense and opens up space near the basket. It doesn't really matter if Zahui or Stokes make or take any threes in a game -- if their defenders are outside the paint when they're on the weakside wing, then New York's guards can attack the basket much more effectively.



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 08/11/20 12:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Any player who is a credible threat from three distorts the defense and opens up space near the basket. It doesn't really matter if Zahui or Stokes make or take any threes in a game -- if their defenders are outside the paint when they're on the weakside wing, then New York's guards can attack the basket much more effectively.

But you have to make a few occasionally to actually be that credible threat.

I hope for her sake (and have to assume, given her profile before the draft) that Walker is still playing herself into shape. Even amongst all these rookies and unknowns, she's been terrible.



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 08/11/20 1:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Any player who is a credible threat from three distorts the defense and opens up space near the basket. It doesn't really matter if Zahui or Stokes make or take any threes in a game -- if their defenders are outside the paint when they're on the weakside wing, then New York's guards can attack the basket much more effectively.

But you have to make a few occasionally to actually be that credible threat.



yeah, if the defense leaves you open out there and collapses in, you kinda know the 'threat' isn't considered very credible.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 08/11/20 1:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
Richyyy wrote:
But you have to make a few occasionally to actually be that credible threat.


yeah, if the defense leaves you open out there and collapses in, you kinda know the 'threat' isn't considered very credible.


If Walt is going to continue on this path with Kiah Stokes, then obviously I hope I'm wrong and Kiah can begin hitting threes when they really count. But right now what WNBA coach would want defenders to rush out there to prevent her from shooting?



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 08/11/20 11:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Kia Nurse has played in seven of New York's eight games. If my count is correct, she's 15-73 in field goal attempts (20.5%). She's 9-42 in three-pointers (21.4%). She's averaging 9.1 points per game. With Sabrina gone, with six rookies on the team, the Liberty desperately need more from Nurse to at least make a respectable showing.



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 08/12/20 12:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Kia Nurse has played in seven of New York's eight games. If my count is correct, she's 15-73 in field goal attempts (20.5%). She's 9-42 in three-pointers (21.4%). She's averaging 9.1 points per game. With Sabrina gone, with six rookies on the team, the Liberty desperately need more from Nurse to at least make a respectable showing.


Those percentages Crying or Very sad

I hope she turns it around soon. She is missing good and ‘bad’ shots- some wide open looks, some deep off balance rushed looks.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 08/12/20 9:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Post Game Press Conference 8/11: Hopkins, Clarendon, Jones.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/RQLWEkzKCvg" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The two most basic things you have to do in basketball are maintain possessions and make shots. New York couldn't do either in the 1st Quarter. This roster is constructed with an assumption that 3 players will be effective scorers: Nurse, Walker, and Willoughby. Right now, Nurse can't make a basket to save her life. She missed 5 or 6 open shots in the first half. Meanwhile, LA made 6 of 7 3s. That was a huge swing in momentum right there. As for Willoughby, it looks like her confidence is gone. After playing well to start the season, Jocelyn now looks really tentative. She's on a downward trend. Walker hasn't found her footing since joining the team late. At least and Nurse and Willoughby still look solid on defense. Walker is struggling on both ends. These players need to turn it around if this team wants to have any chance of being respectable. Right now, NY is starting two non-scorers in Stokes and Odom, as well as a 20% shooter in Nurse. There's no way you can compete with just Zahui and Clarendon spearheading a two-person offense. If this continues, Walt should consider starting Jones and Shook instead of Nurse and Stokes. At some point, he needs to shake things up.

Hopkins confirmed something I noted in an earlier post. Between injuries and having no male practice players, it's very hard to simulate game conditions during practice. On top of that, fatigue is a concern because the team plays every other day. That means most of the teaching has to be done through watching film rather than on the court. It makes the learning process a lot more difficult. People may understand the concepts mentally, but it's hard to execute them in actual games without prior physical practice.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 08/25/20 8:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Social justice statement for the Nets, the Liberty, and the Barclay's Center posted on the Liberty website (and presumably elsewhere) by Clara Wu Tsai and Joe Tsai:

https://liberty.wnba.com/social-justice-commitment-statement/?fbclid=IwAR3uoe8idTG28V4DhEOsLSGPNTm7qqqsHyHUpAQgVhU7ERmLTjFuCFPZZWg

Bravo!



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 08/25/20 1:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Social justice statement for the Nets, the Liberty, and the Barclay's Center posted on the Liberty website (and presumably elsewhere) by Clara Wu Tsai and Joe Tsai:

https://liberty.wnba.com/social-justice-commitment-statement/?fbclid=IwAR3uoe8idTG28V4DhEOsLSGPNTm7qqqsHyHUpAQgVhU7ERmLTjFuCFPZZWg

Bravo!


I love that they have action steps, with their ‘5 point plan’.

Well done!


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 08/25/20 8:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How great to see a Liberty victory--and over a good team. To see terrific games from Amanda Zahui B. and Jocelyn Willoughby and a strong 4th quarter from Layshia Clarendon. I was especially impressed that in a crucial stretch late in the game Hopkins had only one starter on the floor (Zahui B.) along with Shook, Willoughby, Kea, and Jones.

Finally, it was the kind of game we've seen the Liberty lose SO many times over the last 2 1/2 seasons: they've got a good lead, the opposing team inevitably comes back, time doesn't expire fast enough, and sure enough the Liberty collapse right at the end. Except this time they DIDN'T collapse! They made a couple of bad plays in the final two minutes, but made enough good plays to win the game.



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 08/25/20 10:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This is the AZB I hoped to see this season!

22 points, 12 boards, 3 assists, 3 steals, 3 blocks and 0 turnovers! Only 2 fouls. 9-14 (4-7 from distance).
Some points in the paint off drives, just wish she would post up more and go at posts rather than fade-away.


Stormeo



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PostPosted: 08/25/20 11:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Soooo... are we gonna talk about what, if anything, the team should do at Friday's trade deadline? I spat out an idea earlier here, but all in all I'm pro-trading Kiah Stokes either now or during free agency next season. Tonight's win notwithstanding, she & the post play generally speaking have been treacherous on both ends of the floor. The team also still has an absolute logjam of wing players (aka 3/4s in Hopkins' system) both active & inactive, so that aspect of their personnel could start getting addressed now.



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Last edited by Stormeo on 08/25/20 11:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 08/25/20 11:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Just watched a short clip on Facebook of postgame comments from Walt Hopkins, Amanda Zahui B., and Layshia Clarendon. Zahui B. spoke of Jocelyn Willoughby's toughness, determination, and commitment. Clarendon mentioned something about Zahui B. that doesn't show up in the box scores: how much she talks on defense, giving her teammates instructions and encouragement.



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 08/26/20 11:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
I'd say New York should put together a trade package to get Plum. Stokes + Allen/Talbot + Jones/Walker/Willoughby/Odom? More than enough imo. And Laimbeer seems like the most likely coach to trade a #1 Pick against her will. Vegas could trade Plum now and still win the title this year anyway.

Soooo... are we gonna talk about what, if anything, the team should do at Friday's trade deadline? I spat out an idea earlier here, but all in all I'm pro-trading Kiah Stokes either now or during free agency next season. Tonight's win notwithstanding, she & the post play generally speaking have been treacherous on both ends of the floor. The team also still has an absolute logjam of wing players (aka 3/4s in Hopkins' system) both active & inactive, so that aspect of their personnel could start getting addressed now.


I linked part of your thoughts from the other thread and link you posted here.

It’s intriguing. I love Kiah Stokes and that she has added an outside jumper. I love it more when she pairs that with some great touch inside, with simple post moves to create some separation, often times with her left.

Plum would fit the system perfectly, and could slide into the starting lineup next to Ionescu. But then Durr goes to the bench.
I would think our bigger need is a post player. With that projected trade (I’ll say Stokes, Allen, Walker):

2021
Ionescu/Clarendon
Plum/Durr/Jones
Nurse/Willoughby/Odom
Zahui B/Shook
Collier or Kuier or Mack/Xu?
Question marks as well: Johannes, Talbot, Kea, Holmes

Not to mention that with the trade, our post play this season (and next) would still be treacherous and we still have a logjam at the wing.

2020
Clarendon/Kea
Nurse/Jones
Odom/Willoughby
Shook/Holmes
Zahui B

I love your idea, and before the season would have liked a Plum trade. Unfortunately, Vegas doesn’t have a post to return for us this season. Unless we pickup Huff who they waived, and we would roll the dice with 10 players.
I can’t see Walt advocating for a trade, he loves every player on the team. Maybe Kolb does it, but I think it would be for a post. I’m not sure I can see which team would have an offer that fits.


bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 08/26/20 11:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
I’m not sure I can see which team would have an offer that fits.


Okay upon further exploration I found a possibility.

Stokes for Herbert-Harrigan (realistically I think our post play will be treacherous with any likely trade lol)

Why NY does it:
Kiki fits the system stylistically, athletic, blocks shots can defend smaller, hits the 3. She’s young and moldable.
Why they might not:
But is her fiery outburst on court damaging to her, do they consider her a high character person?

Why MIN does it:
Stokes as insurance for Fowles. And a solid/better backup than Alexander, so greater depth as the push for contention this season.
Why they might not:
They just spent a 6 pick on MHH, Stokes is a free agent after this season.

Ultimately, I like Stokes as a bench/backup player for our future squad.
So I am fine standing pat this season. We die and live by the 3 ball, and we have mostly been dying this season. But last night demonstrated what the offense could look like, and overall I think Walt is content winning by out scoring/with offense and mediocre defense.


Stormeo



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PostPosted: 08/26/20 12:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
Stokes for Herbert Harrigan (realistically I think our post play will be treacherous with any likely trade lol)


That's not a bad idea, especially since Cheryl Reeve doesn't seem to be gung-ho about Herbert Harrigan. Too, she'd be a good undersized 4 in Hop's system with her shooting and shot-blocking ability. They could even do Stokes + something (like a 2021 2nd-rounder since Minny has none) for MHH.

Where I was coming from with the Plum trade idea was that ultimately, Hopkins seems to want a heavily-perimeter-oriented team with true perimeter players at positions 1-4. That would mean they only need up to three regular post players to cover the 5. I don't feel like this season's post unit is an accurate reflection of where Hopkins eventually wants it to look like; it seems like he's just working with what he was left with (Zahui B. & Stokes) and what he was able to scrounge up (Holmes on the waiver list), which are normal conditions for a coach to work under in their first year. I envision next year's unit being much different as it relates to the personnel he'll be able to have, ergo the schemes he's able to draw up for both ends of the floor.

What I was thinking by putting out that Plum trade idea (going with that Stokes-Allen-Walker example package) is this:
PG: Ionescu/Plum
SG: Durr/Clarendon
SF: Nurse/Jones
PF: Willoughby/Odom
C: Zahui B./[Lottery Pick]/Shook

I like Plum coming off the bench since I'm not convinced she'll be Stewie-like in her Achilles-tear bounceback campaign. And like I said, I don't think of Clarendon as more than a stopgap veteran, hence trading for Plum; but if Clarendon wants to be a part of the team's future from the bench, they probably could. And that roster example doesn't even include Talbot, Johannès, or Xu in case they all take 2021 off too for Olympics-related activities - though any of them could of course still show up to compete for a spot. The team has plenty of options with those many wing players. Too, they'll have the cap space (and possibly actual roster space) to throw money at/overpay for a good free agent or two. They'll have to stop getting younger at some point if they want to start stabilizing the team's nucleus and winning.

Anyways, all of this to say, I'm pro-the Liberty sending out a trade package to get back a good mix of experience and talent, no matter what form it's in. Maybe not Plum, but with her sitting out due to her injury, she seemed like an obvious candidate in a trade-deadline move. The bulk of moves will undoubtedly come during free agency next year.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 08/26/20 1:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I attended Hopkins’s “chalk talk” on Monday, and they actually asked the question I submitted. Essentially, it was this: given that the Liberty have primarily played conventional 2-post basketball this season, will they revisit the idea of small-ball next year or have they given up on that idea? Walt answered, “No, we haven’t given up on anything.” Then he launched into a long explanation about how he had spoken to coaches and executives of other teams and they all advised him to focus on implementing his long-term systems rather than worrying about wins and losses. He then talked about how the presence of Johannes, Durr, and Allen would have taken pressure off this year’s rookies and made their lives a lot easier. Walt spent the most time talking about Johannes. Notably, he also threw Talbot into the mix. My point is that Hopkins made it sound like everything is tied together and part of the same process. He is relentlessly positive about everyone and how they can contribute in the future. I wouldn’t expect him to behave any other way, but realistically this can’t happen unless the league expands rosters to 18 players. Some people have to go, and by default it will affect your style of play. Maybe on the offensive end Walt can use the same system whether the players are big or small as long as they have the skills. However, on defense size does matter. Having taller players allows you to defend straight-up against opposing post players. We’ve seen a little bit of small-ball defense this year. Willoughby is supposed to be New York’s best defender among the rookies. When she tried to guard Stewart, we saw Breanna rain 3s over her. We also saw Sabally take advantage of Jocelyn by posting-up. Alyssa Thomas killed every Liberty defender big and small, but at least Stokes was able to keep her 10-12 feet away from the basket before Alyssa sunk those ugly hook-floater things that she tosses up with either hand. Against smaller defenders like Nurse and Willoughby, Thomas simply muscled them to within 3-5 feet of the basket for easy lay-ups. There’s no way to pretend that using small defenders is the same as using big defenders.

To get a true understanding of what’s going on, you have to look at what Hopkins does rather than what he says. The simple fact is Kiah Stokes plays more minutes than anyone else on the team. To me, that’s the best measure of how a coach feels about a player. Who does the coach trust? Look at the minutes. Now, Walt did say he intends to use the veterans less for the rest of the season. As he reiterated in the post-game press conference, he sees a lot of injuries around the league so he wants to protect his veterans. He’s afraid of running people into the ground so he plans to limit their minutes. Expect to see more of the younger players, but note that the rationale is health concerns – not performance or player development.



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 08/26/20 3:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
Stokes for Herbert Harrigan (realistically I think our post play will be treacherous with any likely trade lol)


That's not a bad idea, especially since Cheryl Reeve doesn't seem to be gung-ho about Herbert Harrigan. Too, she'd be a good undersized 4 in Hop's system with her shooting and shot-blocking ability. They could even do Stokes + something (like a 2021 2nd-rounder since Minny has none) for MHH.

Anyways, all of this to say, I'm pro-the Liberty sending out a trade package to get back a good mix of experience and talent, no matter what form it's in. Maybe not Plum, but with her sitting out due to her injury, she seemed like an obvious candidate in a trade-deadline move. The bulk of moves will undoubtedly come during free agency next year.


If we do end up packaging say Stokes+Allen+Walker for Plum, I wouldn’t be opposed because Plum will likely still be a solid playmaker and 3pt threat at the very least post injury.

I suppose we can experiment the rest of the season playing small ball as originally envisioned, including time for Willoughby and Odom at the 4.
If Jocelyn can continue to hit 3s, it counterbalances the height deficit she gives up. It’s just dangerous because there are tall 4s who can hit the 3 as well.

But as root pointed out, Walt has played Kiah a lot this season, indicating he likes what she provides. Trade deadline is coming up so I suppose we will see if any movement happens.

I would feel more comfortable with MHH at the 4, but I’ll just ride out whatever Walt and Kolb move forward with for the next few seasons.


bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 08/26/20 6:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEXLLddhPid/?igshid=3zqw50ceztmy

In honor of our UNITY game, Liberty #BlackLivesMatter and #BlackTransLivesMatter shooting shirts are ON SALE NOW!

All proceeds will go towards the #BreonnaTaylor Foundation.

SHOP NOW: https://netsstore.com/collections/new-york-liberty


Skyfan22



Joined: 12 Aug 2013
Posts: 313



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PostPosted: 08/27/20 1:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CEXLLddhPid/?igshid=3zqw50ceztmy

In honor of our UNITY game, Liberty #BlackLivesMatter and #BlackTransLivesMatter shooting shirts are ON SALE NOW!

All proceeds will go towards the #BreonnaTaylor Foundation.

SHOP NOW: https://netsstore.com/collections/new-york-liberty


So excited. Came to the NY page specifically to see if I could get a black trans lives matter shirt. We’ll see how Texas responds.


bluedevilaztecfan5



Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 641
Location: San Diego, CA


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PostPosted: 08/27/20 3:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Skyfan22 wrote:
bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CEXLLddhPid/?igshid=3zqw50ceztmy

In honor of our UNITY game, Liberty #BlackLivesMatter and #BlackTransLivesMatter shooting shirts are ON SALE NOW!

All proceeds will go towards the #BreonnaTaylor Foundation.

SHOP NOW: https://netsstore.com/collections/new-york-liberty


So excited. Came to the NY page specifically to see if I could get a black trans lives matter shirt. We’ll see how Texas responds.


I ordered both 😊
I hope Texas responds well, and know that you have a support here, in me, if you need space to talk about things!!


Skyfan22



Joined: 12 Aug 2013
Posts: 313



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PostPosted: 08/27/20 6:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
Skyfan22 wrote:
bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CEXLLddhPid/?igshid=3zqw50ceztmy

In honor of our UNITY game, Liberty #BlackLivesMatter and #BlackTransLivesMatter shooting shirts are ON SALE NOW!

All proceeds will go towards the #BreonnaTaylor Foundation.

SHOP NOW: https://netsstore.com/collections/new-york-liberty


So excited. Came to the NY page specifically to see if I could get a black trans lives matter shirt. We’ll see how Texas responds.


I ordered both 😊
I hope Texas responds well, and know that you have a support here, in me, if you need space to talk about things!!


Thank you!

Ordered the shoot around shirt. Slightly bummed as would prefer it to be short sleeved. But will get to wear it 3-4 months a year. So, I also ordered a short sleeved one from Amazon, but don’t like that I dont know who that money is going to.

I am really trying to steer my money toward black businesses and other groups I support. Is there anything like the pink pages around anymore for black, trans, gay, female business owners?


bluedevilaztecfan5



Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 641
Location: San Diego, CA


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PostPosted: 08/27/20 8:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Skyfan22 wrote:
bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
Skyfan22 wrote:
bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CEXLLddhPid/?igshid=3zqw50ceztmy

In honor of our UNITY game, Liberty #BlackLivesMatter and #BlackTransLivesMatter shooting shirts are ON SALE NOW!

All proceeds will go towards the #BreonnaTaylor Foundation.

SHOP NOW: https://netsstore.com/collections/new-york-liberty


So excited. Came to the NY page specifically to see if I could get a black trans lives matter shirt. We’ll see how Texas responds.


I ordered both 😊
I hope Texas responds well, and know that you have a support here, in me, if you need space to talk about things!!


Thank you!

Ordered the shoot around shirt. Slightly bummed as would prefer it to be short sleeved. But will get to wear it 3-4 months a year. So, I also ordered a short sleeved one from Amazon, but don’t like that I dont know who that money is going to.

I am really trying to steer my money toward black businesses and other groups I support. Is there anything like the pink pages around anymore for black, trans, gay, female business owners?


Unfortunately not that I know of now, but if I hear I’ll let you know!
I personally just look up Etsy shops who have good descriptions or self identify as queer/femme/Black.


Skyfan22



Joined: 12 Aug 2013
Posts: 313



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PostPosted: 08/29/20 9:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
Skyfan22 wrote:
bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
Skyfan22 wrote:
bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CEXLLddhPid/?igshid=3zqw50ceztmy

In honor of our UNITY game, Liberty #BlackLivesMatter and #BlackTransLivesMatter shooting shirts are ON SALE NOW!

All proceeds will go towards the #BreonnaTaylor Foundation.

SHOP NOW: https://netsstore.com/collections/new-york-liberty


So excited. Came to the NY page specifically to see if I could get a black trans lives matter shirt. We’ll see how Texas responds.


I ordered both 😊
I hope Texas responds well, and know that you have a support here, in me, if you need space to talk about things!!


Thank you!

Ordered the shoot around shirt. Slightly bummed as would prefer it to be short sleeved. But will get to wear it 3-4 months a year. So, I also ordered a short sleeved one from Amazon, but don’t like that I dont know who that money is going to.

I am really trying to steer my money toward black businesses and other groups I support. Is there anything like the pink pages around anymore for black, trans, gay, female business owners?


Unfortunately not that I know of now, but if I hear I’ll let you know!
I personally just look up Etsy shops who have good descriptions or self identify as queer/femme/Black.


Thank you.


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