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root_thing



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: 09/24/19 1:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
As a fan who has spoken positive about the trade I just want to point out for clarification that I said I wouldn't want to do it in multiple posts and I am excited about the way the future is unfolding

and while I view the trade as pure fantasy, I wouldn't dismiss players of Moore and Fowles' caliber simply as aging vets, and I would bet the Liberty GM would trip over themselves to answer the phone and make that trade.


You're probably right. Tsai approved the signing of Kevin Durant who turns 31 on Sunday and is already expected to miss the coming season. I would not have done it. The previous Nets administration made the Kevin Garnett/Paul Pierce trade that I referenced earlier. Again, another move I would not have made.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 09/24/19 1:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
As a fan who has spoken positive about the trade I just want to point out for clarification that I said I wouldn't want to do it in multiple posts and I am excited about the way the future is unfolding

and while I view the trade as pure fantasy, I wouldn't dismiss players of Moore and Fowles' caliber simply as aging vets, and I would bet the Liberty GM would trip over themselves to answer the phone and make that trade.


You're probably right. Tsai approved the signing of Kevin Durant who turns 31 on Sunday and is already expected to miss the coming season. I would not have done it. The previous Nets administration made the Kevin Garnett/Paul Pierce trade that I referenced earlier. Again, another move I would not have made.


OK I don't want to derail this thread and I like debating with you Root but

You have to sign Durant

I am originally from Boston so I am really not a fan of Irving, I was a huge Durant fan at first but have lost some interest in him since, Brooklyn's team last year was an amazing story of underdogs over achieving, probably one of the feel good stories of last season

but if you're Brooklyn and you can sign Durant (even with a year to wait) and Irving even though he might ruin your chemistry, you have to do it, you have to, both from the business side and the on the court side, there are only so many top 10 players and unless you're the Fever that one year or the Piston's that other year (or maybe the Raptors last year) you need two of them to be a real threat. Honestly I hate that the Nets did it... but they had to.

If you could pass on that I commend you on your fortitude and conviction




Last edited by J-Spoon on 09/24/19 1:23 am; edited 1 time in total
justintyme



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PostPosted: 09/24/19 1:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
If you did a poll, my guess is that the vast majority of posters on this board would side with J-Spoon. Bob and I are probably in the minority, but we're also older guys who have seen this before -- a lot. I would rather just go through the natural process of building a team with young players. More work, but more years to work with. If we need to overpay for the final piece, that's fine. I just don't think we're at that stage yet.

Oh, no. As I noted before with J-Spoon I totally get that and am personally inclined to agree with that approach and if the Liberty were my main team that's what I'd want them to do (though if they announced this sort of blockbuster, I'd probably get behind it and get pretty excited about it fairly quickly, regardless of my preference).

This was mostly just as some off-season fun for an idea to toss around that I thought was actually somewhat fair and wasn't one of those "hey, you give us your stars and we'll give you a bag'o'chips trades" that get tossed around so often.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 09/24/19 1:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If you could make the economic argument that signing Durant would pay for itself through marketing and merchandising revenue, then fine. However, those forecasts are usually over-optimistic. The classic for me is the Yankees bidding against themselves to give Alex Rodriguez one final big contract. It was all predicated upon the expected marketing opportunities that would occur when Rodriguez broke the career home run record. Of course, between injuries and a suspension for PED use, he never even reached 700 home runs, much less pass Ruth, Aaron, and Bonds. Even if he did, the PED use would have tarnished the achievement and limited marketing potential.



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Even now by the gate with your long hair blowing
And the colors of the day that lie along your arms
You must barter your life to make sure you are living
And the crowd that has come
You give them the colors
And the bells and wind and the dream
Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: 09/24/19 5:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
As a fan who has spoken positive about the trade I just want to point out for clarification that I said I wouldn't want to do it in multiple posts and I am excited about the way the future is unfolding

and while I view the trade as pure fantasy, I wouldn't dismiss players of Moore and Fowles' caliber simply as aging vets, and I would bet the Liberty GM would trip over themselves to answer the phone and make that trade.


So you wouldn't want to make this trade, but you think the Liberty GM would trip over himself to answer the phone and make this trade??? That's a rather strange inconsistency.

In my view, if the Liberty GM would trip over himself to make this trade, then he would be wrong.


justintyme



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PostPosted: 09/24/19 8:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
J-Spoon wrote:
As a fan who has spoken positive about the trade I just want to point out for clarification that I said I wouldn't want to do it in multiple posts and I am excited about the way the future is unfolding

and while I view the trade as pure fantasy, I wouldn't dismiss players of Moore and Fowles' caliber simply as aging vets, and I would bet the Liberty GM would trip over themselves to answer the phone and make that trade.


So you wouldn't want to make this trade, but you think the Liberty GM would trip over himself to answer the phone and make this trade??? That's a rather strange inconsistency.

In my view, if the Liberty GM would trip over himself to make this trade, then he would be wrong.

A GM is likely going to have a different game plan in mind than a subset of the team's fans. Now maybe they decide the best course of action is to commit fully to a rebuild like some of us more patient types would prefer. But put yourself in the shoes of a GM of a team that hasn't had success, much less sustained success, in a long time. They are probably going to eye a trade that instantly makes them title contenders for at least a year or two, perhaps more depending on how the youth like Durr and Johannes and 2020's 6th pick (Dangerfield?) develops, favorably. The chance to energize a fan base like that instantly as they move facilities and perhaps establish something by boasting a team with 3 former MVPs and someone they could market to the city as a return of one of the games most identifiable stars--and one of the greatest to ever take the hardwood--in Moore is somewhat of manna from heaven (again, playing with assumptions that all players are okay and committed to this trade. And BTW, if Maya commits to something, she's all-in. It's just her personality. If she isn't feeling it or is unsure, she won't commit. That's why this all hinges on the whole "she's back and ready to ball" thought. That's so up in the air right now, and rightfully so as she shouldn't commit unless that's where her heart actually lies, thus the lark of fantasy I embarked upon and why this is more or less just some off season goofiness more than an actual possibility).

When drawing comparisons here through, I would caution drawing too many to "aging stars" in the men's game. It is my observation that the men hit their prime at a younger age than women and "age" out of it quicker due to the ISO game play and the over-reliance on sheer athleticism rather than shooting/footwork/basketball IQ/team play.



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stever



Joined: 16 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 09/24/19 4:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
Brooklyn Nets going gray for fresh new look

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/27683304/brooklyn-nets-going-gray-fresh-new-look





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toad455



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 09/25/19 5:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Han Xu had 10 points, 11 rebounds, 6 assists & 3 blocks in just 20 minutes in their win over Philippines today.



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Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 09/26/19 2:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sounds like Weatherspoon got a job with the Pelicans.

https://www.nola.com/article_7293bafc-e08f-11e9-b86b-43158939738d.html



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toad455



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PostPosted: 09/26/19 4:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Sounds like Weatherspoon got a job with the Pelicans.

https://www.nola.com/article_7293bafc-e08f-11e9-b86b-43158939738d.html


Yep. Doesn't seem like she'll be back with the Liberty next season.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/26/19 5:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
Shades wrote:
Sounds like Weatherspoon got a job with the Pelicans.

https://www.nola.com/article_7293bafc-e08f-11e9-b86b-43158939738d.html


Yep. Doesn't seem like she'll be back with the Liberty next season.


Dodged that bullet.



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PostPosted: 09/26/19 5:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Wonderful for T-Spoon. Very happy for her.


shontay33



Joined: 01 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: 09/27/19 12:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
toad455 wrote:
Shades wrote:
Sounds like Weatherspoon got a job with the Pelicans.

https://www.nola.com/article_7293bafc-e08f-11e9-b86b-43158939738d.html


Yep. Doesn't seem like she'll be back with the Liberty next season.


Dodged that bullet.


How is that a dodged bullet? If I am not mistaken, she had the player development position before Katie Smith even got there. She was well liked and highly respected by the players. She also was not responsible for coaching decisions.

Great move by the Pelicans.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/27/19 12:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

shontay33 wrote:
How is that a dodged bullet? If I am not mistaken, she had the player development position before Katie Smith even got there. She was well liked and highly respected by the players. She also was not responsible for coaching decisions.

Great move by the Pelicans.


Agreed.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/27/19 12:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm late, but just pondering the box score for the final Las Vegas game of the season, their 94-90 loss to Washington.

Carolyn Swords didn't get off the bench. Neither did Epiphanny Prince. Sugar Rodgers played three minutes, 25 seconds. No field goal attempts, no free throws, no rebounds, no assists, no personal fouls, no steals, and no turnovers. Had a +/- of minus 2.

Seems clear to me that the former LFO needs a new set of Liberty bench players for next season. Perhaps Trader Bill can dump Swords, Prince, and Rodgers and trade for Rashanda Gray, Brittany Boyd, and Bria Hartley. Smile


ClayK



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PostPosted: 09/27/19 9:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So my question would be this: What players improved with Weatherspoon's help? (And I'm not claiming anything either way -- just looking for data.)



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/27/19 9:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
So my question would be this: What players improved with Weatherspoon's help? (And I'm not claiming anything either way -- just looking for data.)


I think this is an understandable question but also an impossible question. Kia Nurse improved from her rookie season to her second, even with a second-half slump. Did Teresa Weatherspoon help her? Did Katie Smith help her? Did Tanisha Wright help her? Can we reasonably expect anyone here to meaningfully answer these questions?

(And how could we assess times that Weatherspoon gave players terrific advice that they ignored? Or that they attempted to implement but couldn't?)

I'm not writing any of the above to defend Weatherspoon. I know you weren't attempting to be critical of her. Perhaps people will have terrific answers that I can't anticipate, but I'm very skeptical that any of us can do that. I certainly can't.


Randy



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PostPosted: 09/27/19 10:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

For one Sugar Rodgers seemed to improve (3pt % and defense) with the Liberty. Stokes seemed to improve on offense in her second year. I don't know if any of that has to do with T-Spoon or not.

BTW- "Player development" could cover a lot of ground from working on basketball skills, to improving player's comfort level in public appearances, fan interaction, media interviews, and even adjustment to pro life.



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jmvcity



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PostPosted: 09/27/19 11:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Now that the Pelicans have Swin and T-Spoon, take Katie, too!


Happycappie25



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PostPosted: 09/27/19 11:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jmvcity wrote:
Now that the Pelicans have Swin and T-Spoon, take Katie, too!


One can hope



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/27/19 12:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd consider becoming a fan of the Pelicans if they find a job for Katie Smith and thereby help the Liberty get a new coach. Especially since my beloved Knicks are still owned by Hideous Lord Jimmy.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 09/27/19 1:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
I'd consider becoming a fan of the Pelicans if they find a job for Katie Smith and thereby help the Liberty get a new coach. Especially since my beloved Knicks are still owned by Hideous Lord Jimmy.


Katie Smith as your coach, James Dolan as your owner or King Cake Baby as your mascot. Those are some hard choices.




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Even now by the gate with your long hair blowing
And the colors of the day that lie along your arms
You must barter your life to make sure you are living
And the crowd that has come
You give them the colors
And the bells and wind and the dream
Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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Location: New York City


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PostPosted: 09/27/19 2:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Well, let's put it this way. Of the three--Hideous Lord Jimmy, Katie Smith, and King Cake Baby--King Cake Baby is the one I have the least bad feelings about. I only have bad feelings about Katie if she's back as Liberty coach. Otherwise I genuinely wish her well. I'll spare everyone another rant about Hideous Lord Jimmy.

Can I learn to love King Cake Baby? Based on the photo above, it could be hard. Smile


NYSports56



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PostPosted: 09/27/19 2:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
I only have bad feelings about Katie if she's back as Liberty coach. Otherwise I genuinely wish her well.


+1


NYSports56



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PostPosted: 09/27/19 3:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
ClayK wrote:
So my question would be this: What players improved with Weatherspoon's help? (And I'm not claiming anything either way -- just looking for data.)


I think this is an understandable question but also an impossible question. Kia Nurse improved from her rookie season to her second, even with a second-half slump. Did Teresa Weatherspoon help her? Did Katie Smith help her? Did Tanisha Wright help her? Can we reasonably expect anyone here to meaningfully answer these questions?

(And how could we assess times that Weatherspoon gave players terrific advice that they ignored? Or that they attempted to implement but couldn't?)

I'm not writing any of the above to defend Weatherspoon. I know you weren't attempting to be critical of her. Perhaps people will have terrific answers that I can't anticipate, but I'm very skeptical that any of us can do that. I certainly can't.


I think it's fair to question exactly how much Weatherspoon has done with the Liberty players compared to other player developers out there. A few players have improved, but only mildly. There are several players such as Boyd and Hartley where I hoped for improvement, but there was none.

As for Sugar Rodgers's 3P% improvement mentioned by Randy, here are Sugar's percentages for her career:

2013 31.3 (MIN)
2014 28.9
2015 32.0
2016 41.3
2017 34.2
2018 32.3
2019 35.7 (LV)

So, a dip from her rookie year to start off her Liberty tenure, then two years of improvement, then two years of regression, and then off to Las Vegas where she has her 2nd best percentage of her career. Certainly nothing special, and probably the least you'd want from your player developer.

Again, who knows how much of this is on Spoon? I can't say that she's bad at what she's doing. But I feel pretty certain saying that she's not great at what she does. We'd see more.


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