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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 06/28/20 1:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
That's all ... it's a general interest magazine and I'd done another piece on Sabrina for them last year. (My wife said the same thing -- but a word count is a word count.)

Thanks ...


I know about word counts, Clay. I once had an editor get interested in my writing a personal essay for a magazine... but it could only be 600 words! I sat down and wrote a first draft that was more than 1200 words. Then I cut content. And then more content. Now I was getting closer but definitely didn't want to cut any more content. So I had to examine every sentence. Was it essential? Could I write that sentence using fewer words? Draft after excruciating draft. Finally it was 600 words, the editor loved it, and it was published. Smile

Again, it's an excellent piece and thanks for posting it.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 06/28/20 3:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

That's all ... it's a general interest magazine and I'd done another piece on Sabrina for them last year. (My wife said the same thing -- but a word count is a word count.)

Thanks ...



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Lib Fan



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PostPosted: 06/28/20 8:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There is a wonderful Australian - New Zealand comedy-drama series
"800 Words" It ran from 2015-2018...I streamed it on Acorn TV

Bluedevilactecfan, I sent you a PM please look for it



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tfan



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PostPosted: 06/28/20 8:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

New York only has two "starters" on their squad [Durr, Nurse] - if starter is defined as a player who has started a majority of their games in the league. But Nurse was voted an all-star starter and Ionescu could hit the high side of expectations. The owner would likely be OK with them being in the lottery some amount of years, but it seems that there is a threshold of wins each year that a team has to clear to avoid the coach getting the boot.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 06/28/20 8:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
New York only has two "starters" on their squad [Durr, Nurse] - if starter is defined as a player who has started a majority of their games in the league. But Nurse was voted an all-star starter and Ionescu could hit the high side of expectations. The owner would likely be OK with them being in the lottery some amount of years, but it seems that there is a threshold of wins each year that a team has to clear to avoid the coach getting the boot.


We've all seen sports owners and executives make decisions that are bizarre, clueless, hugely unfair, etc. But Joe Tsai and Clara Tsai have obviously bought into a complete rebuilding approach sold to them by Jonathan Kolb. Rookie head coach, seven rookies and a second-year player on the 12-player roster, promising young players in France and China that hopefully will be in Brooklyn in 2021.

I hope that Walt Hopkins and our current roster will show promise this year and will take a clear step forward in 2021. I'd like the Liberty to be a serious contender in 2022. In my view, given the commitment that's been made to a complete rebuild, expecting and demanding a quicker timetable for success would be unfair and unrealistic.



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Lib Fan



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PostPosted: 06/28/20 9:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This is anything but what a normal year is,
if it even takes place



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 06/28/20 9:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Liberty have already been horrible for two seasons. I don't think the fans will accept more than an additional two years in the lottery, bringing the total to 4 in a row. I have low expectations this season, but I honestly believe some level of respectability should be achievable next year -- maybe a .500 record? Remember, this isn't like the men's leagues with 30 or more teams. Things can turn around much more quickly because of the concentration of talent. We got lucky with Nurse in 2018. Subsequently, if you add 3 lottery picks in a row and maybe a key free agent, that should put you in a good position. NY also has all these other young players floating around. The whole rationale for hiring Hopkins is that he's supposed to be superior at player development. If we discern advances in performance from a number of individuals, then team record becomes less important. However, under normal circumstances, improved individual play also leads to team success. That's why I'm cautiously optimistic about next season. Only if the young players fail to develop AND if his small ball experiment stumbles badly will Hopkins find himself in trouble.



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PostPosted: 06/28/20 10:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
The Liberty have already been horrible for two seasons. I don't think the fans will accept more than an additional two years in the lottery, bringing the total to 4 in a row. I have low expectations this season, but I honestly believe some level of respectability should be achievable next year -- maybe a .500 record? Remember, this isn't like the men's leagues with 30 or more teams. Things can turn around much more quickly because of the concentration of talent. We got lucky with Nurse in 2018. Subsequently, if you add 3 lottery picks in a row and maybe a key free agent, that should put you in a good position. NY also has all these other young players floating around. The whole rationale for hiring Hopkins is that he's supposed to be superior at player development. If we discern advances in performance from a number of individuals, then team record becomes less important. However, under normal circumstances, improved individual play also leads to team success. That's why I'm cautiously optimistic about next season. Only if the young players fail to develop AND if his small ball experiment stumbles badly will Hopkins find himself in trouble.


This is very much in line with what I was trying to say, with some precise targets that I view as quite reasonable. For me, a .500 record in 2021 is a fair expectation. As is a maximum of two more seasons ending up in the lottery. If New York finishes 2022 as a lottery team, then, yes, fans shouldn't accept that and the Kolb/Hopkins rebuild should be viewed as a flop.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 06/29/20 7:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

We already have our 15 players for 2021 camps. Don't re-sign Stokes and our lotto pick can take her slot(Mack, Davis or Collier if she enters early). I also think Allen's days in a Liberty uniform may be over. Plus she (& Talbot) may skip 2021 due to the Olympics. Maybe we get a veteran FA as well.

PG: Ionescu/Clarendon
SG: Durr/Johannes/Jones
SF: Nurse/Willoughby/Talbot?
PF: Walker/Holmes/Shook/Odom
C: Zahui B/Han/lotto pick



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 06/29/20 8:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
We already have our 15 players for 2021 camps. Don't re-sign Stokes and our lotto pick can take her slot(Mack, Davis or Collier if she enters early). I also think Allen's days in a Liberty uniform may be over. Plus she (& Talbot) may skip 2021 due to the Olympics. Maybe we get a veteran FA as well.

PG: Ionescu/Clarendon
SG: Durr/Johannes/Jones
SF: Nurse/Willoughby/Talbot?
PF: Walker/Holmes/Shook/Odom
C: Zahui B/Han/lotto pick


I will be shocked if all seven of our current rookies are in training camp in 2021.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 06/29/20 9:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Don’t forget, if the foreign leagues have normal seasons (definitely not a given), then some of the Liberty players will come to training camp late. Teams usually bring in extra players until the regulars arrive because they need the practice bodies. Consequently, rosters end up being a rolling 15, which means the total is more like 20. I would expect all seven rookies to be at training camp next season unless a couple are traded. Six will still be under contract and Holmes can be made a reserve player. There is no risk in bringing them to camp because none of the contracts are guaranteed. I do agree that it’s unlikely all seven sophomores will make the team.



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PostPosted: 06/29/20 10:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Don’t forget, if the foreign leagues have normal seasons (definitely not a given), then some of the Liberty players will come to training camp late. Teams usually bring in extra players until the regulars arrive because they need the practice bodies. Consequently, rosters end up being a rolling 15, which means the total is more like 20. I would expect all seven rookies to be at training camp next season unless a couple are traded. Six will still be under contract and Holmes can be made a reserve player. There is no risk in bringing them to camp because none of the contracts are guaranteed. I do agree that it’s unlikely all seven sophomores will make the team.


One or more could indeed be traded. Or someone could simply get released. Seems reasonable to me that at least one of the seven will be unimpressive and the Liberty will decide that that player isn't even worth another look in training camp.

I definitely expect the Liberty to be looking to make some trades in the 2020-2021 offseason. Going with such a young and inexperienced roster seems to me the right move for 2020. Not necessarily for 2021.



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 06/29/20 12:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
New, outstanding article by Layshia Clarendon on the Players Tribune: "It's Time to Think Bigger."

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/layshia-clarendon-wnba-racial-injustice


I bookmarked this and finally got around to reading. Thanks for posting it Bob.
I’m happy to have a player like Layshia on the team. I had hoped to hear a touch about gender identity, but respect that the article was more so framed around race and Black injustice, with some integration of Layshia’s queer identity.

Also, according to their public Instagram, Layshia identifies as non-binary and uses they/them pronouns. I just noticed this change to their profile this past week, after Liberty virtual pride events. Prior it had also included she as an option, but no longer.

I know it can be tough to transition into using different pronouns than he or she. But I thought I would let the board know, and have a chance at integrating it into your lives if you choose to support their (Layshia’s) gender identity and current pronouns.

I’m super proud of them, I know how difficult this might be for Layshia.

Edit: and happy pride month!! 🌈🌈 remember New Yorker’s, the first Pride was a riot Twisted Evil Wink


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PostPosted: 06/29/20 12:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
New, outstanding article by Layshia Clarendon on the Players Tribune: "It's Time to Think Bigger."

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/layshia-clarendon-wnba-racial-injustice


I bookmarked this and finally got around to reading. Thanks for posting it Bob.
I’m happy to have a player like Layshia on the team. I had hoped to hear a touch about gender identity, but respect that the article was more so framed around race and Black injustice, with some integration of Layshia’s queer identity.

Also, according to their public Instagram, Layshia identifies as non-binary and uses they/them pronouns. I just noticed this change to their profile this past week, after Liberty virtual pride events. Prior it had also included she as an option, but no longer.

I know it can be tough to transition into using different pronouns than he or she. But I thought I would let the board know, and have a chance at integrating it into your lives if you choose to support their (Layshia’s) gender identity and current pronouns.

I’m super proud of them, I know how difficult this might be for Layshia.

Edit: and happy pride month!! 🌈🌈 remember New Yorker’s, the first Pride was a riot Twisted Evil Wink


Thanks, bluedevilm for all you've written and reported here. I have great respect for Layshia Clarendon as a basketball player but most important as a dedicated political activist living her life with integrity. As with anyone else, of course I fully support their decisions regarding gender identity and pronouns, just as I fully support her Black Lives Matter activism.

Happy Pride month to all.

P.S. Even with all that bluedevil has written above, in my 3rd sentence above I initially used the word "her" (her decisions). Habits of 73 years are hard to break, but I am working on it. Smile



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 06/29/20 1:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
New, outstanding article by Layshia Clarendon on the Players Tribune: "It's Time to Think Bigger."

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/layshia-clarendon-wnba-racial-injustice


I bookmarked this and finally got around to reading. Thanks for posting it Bob.
I’m happy to have a player like Layshia on the team. I had hoped to hear a touch about gender identity, but respect that the article was more so framed around race and Black injustice, with some integration of Layshia’s queer identity.

Also, according to their public Instagram, Layshia identifies as non-binary and uses they/them pronouns. I just noticed this change to their profile this past week, after Liberty virtual pride events. Prior it had also included she as an option, but no longer.

I know it can be tough to transition into using different pronouns than he or she. But I thought I would let the board know, and have a chance at integrating it into your lives if you choose to support their (Layshia’s) gender identity and current pronouns.

I’m super proud of them, I know how difficult this might be for Layshia.

Edit: and happy pride month!! 🌈🌈 remember New Yorker’s, the first Pride was a riot Twisted Evil Wink

I will absolutely endeavour to use whatever pronouns Clarendon wishes, but just to note that it does still say she/her/they/them on their Twitter profile, so hopefully it's not that upsetting if we get it wrong.

I do wonder if at some point the WNBA is going to have to be rather more detailed than the "Only players who are women are eligible to play in the WNBA" line that has been in there since, I think, the very first CBA. With gender fluidity and the concept of there being a greater spectrum than a binary A or B becoming increasingly accepted, at some point they're going to have to address the idea of people who fall somewhere in the middle wanting to play in the league.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 06/29/20 3:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
New, outstanding article by Layshia Clarendon on the Players Tribune: "It's Time to Think Bigger."

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/layshia-clarendon-wnba-racial-injustice


I bookmarked this and finally got around to reading. Thanks for posting it Bob.
I’m happy to have a player like Layshia on the team. I had hoped to hear a touch about gender identity, but respect that the article was more so framed around race and Black injustice, with some integration of Layshia’s queer identity.

Also, according to their public Instagram, Layshia identifies as non-binary and uses they/them pronouns. I just noticed this change to their profile this past week, after Liberty virtual pride events. Prior it had also included she as an option, but no longer.

I know it can be tough to transition into using different pronouns than he or she. But I thought I would let the board know, and have a chance at integrating it into your lives if you choose to support their (Layshia’s) gender identity and current pronouns.

I’m super proud of them, I know how difficult this might be for Layshia.

Edit: and happy pride month!! 🌈🌈 remember New Yorker’s, the first Pride was a riot Twisted Evil Wink

I will absolutely endeavour to use whatever pronouns Clarendon wishes, but just to note that it does still say she/her/they/them on their Twitter profile, so hopefully it's not that upsetting if we get it wrong.

I do wonder if at some point the WNBA is going to have to be rather more detailed than the "Only players who are women are eligible to play in the WNBA" line that has been in there since, I think, the very first CBA. With gender fluidity and the concept of there being a greater spectrum than a binary A or B becoming increasingly accepted, at some point they're going to have to address the idea of people who fall somewhere in the middle wanting to play in the league.


This is a great point ... there may come a time when "women's" will have to be removed from the names of sports leagues and other entities.



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 06/29/20 4:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK, yes I agree that time may come, but perhaps not in our time. I’ve been apart of lots of conversations with people wondering about transgender people (and gender fluid/non binary) participating in various leagues, on all levels. Many are against it, fearing people having an unfair advantage.

At the end of it, my thinking is people won’t change their body and go through gender affirming treatment (hormones and or surgeries) just to play a sport and potentially have an ‘advantage’. This is who they are and most have known as something was different since they were young children, and they deserve to play in the league they belong in.

Richyyy, yeah I don’t go much on Twitter (only this past offseason haha), and I just noticed the change on their Instagram this past week. And I haven’t seen a public ‘announcement’ regarding pronouns so if it hasn’t changed everywhere, I am sure it is a gradual change Layshia will make.

And Bob, I appreciate you and your 73 year old habits trying! Very Happy


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PostPosted: 06/29/20 6:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
At the end of it, my thinking is people won’t change their body and go through gender affirming treatment (hormones and or surgeries) just to play a sport and potentially have an ‘advantage’. This is who they are and most have known as something was different since they were young children, and they deserve to play in the league they belong in.

They may not do it with the intent of having an advantage, but IMO it is inevitable that the collection of people who do go through that process and do have an advantage, will overlap with the collection of people who want to play basketball for a living.
I don't think a "We will cross that bridge when we come to it" approach by the league is going to be better for any side involved, so they might as well start addressing it now.



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bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 06/29/20 8:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc ,I agree, we should really start addressing it now. I just don’t know that the league will anytime soon, as I’ve not heard of many trans female star athletes who could potentially be apart of the league.

As for as advantage goes, I think it depends on so many things.
For example, if a child starts testosterone blockers before hitting puberty, and begins taking estrogen, I believe that advantage would fade early.

Keep in mind the doctor in this article is talking about Post puberty changes:
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-estrogen-hormone-therapy

Quote:
You can also expect your muscle mass and strength to decrease significantly. To maintain muscle tone, and for your general health, I recommend you exercise.


I can’t find much on pre-puberty hormone blockers and estrogen intake, but more:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/mtf-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385096

Quote:
Decreased muscle mass. This will begin three to six months after treatment. The maximum effect will occur within one to two years.


bluedevilaztecfan5



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PostPosted: 06/29/20 8:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I totally made two posts because I enjoy my essays, but realize ppl scroll past them sometimes Laughing

I was surprised to find this resource given to the NCAA in 2010, it’s an interesting read if you have some time:
https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Transgender_Handbook_2011_Final.pdf

Quote:
Transgender women display a great deal of physical variation, just as there is a great deal of natural variation in physical size and ability among non-transgender women and men. Many people may have a stereo- type that all transgender women are unusually tall and have large bones and muscles. But that is not true. A male-to-female transgender woman may be small and slight, even if she is not on hormone blockers or taking estrogen. It is important not to overgeneralize. The assumption that all male-bodied people are taller, stronger, and more highly skilled in a sport than all female-bodied people is not accurate.4


I don’t know that they ‘debunked’ the myths, but I agree with this sentiment quoted:
https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbt-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/

Quote:
In Connecticut, where cisgender girl runners have tried to block Andraya from participating in the sport she loves, the very same cis girls who have claimed that trans athletes have an “unfair” advantage have consistently performed as well as or better than transgender competitors.


Quote:
Women and girls who are trans face discrimination and violence that makes it difficult to even stay in school. According to the U.S. Trans Survey, 22 percent of trans women who were perceived as trans in school were harassed so badly they had to leave school because of it. Another 10 percent were kicked out of school. The idea that women and girls have an advantage because they are trans ignores the actual conditions of their lives.


I think this last point is super important, depression/anxiety/PTSD from violence/bullying could have a huge impact on physical sports performance. On top of general low self-esteem, a sense of not belonging and societal rejection/lack of understanding of one’s transgender identity.


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PostPosted: 06/29/20 8:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote:
At the end of it, my thinking is people won’t change their body and go through gender affirming treatment (hormones and or surgeries) just to play a sport and potentially have an ‘advantage’. This is who they are and most have known as something was different since they were young children, and they deserve to play in the league they belong in.

They may not do it with the intent of having an advantage, but IMO it is inevitable that the collection of people who do go through that process and do have an advantage, will overlap with the collection of people who want to play basketball for a living.
I don't think a "We will cross that bridge when we come to it" approach by the league is going to be better for any side involved, so they might as well start addressing it now.


Does someone actually have to undergo any medical treatment or alteration? Can't they just identify as a different gender than their birth certificate says? (Please don't shoot me if this is a really bad question. Keep in mind I am basement dweller who doesn't get out much.)



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PostPosted: 06/29/20 8:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Track and field has basically already run into this issue with Caster Semenya and after a lot of legal battles has essentially come up with their own fairly arbitrary rules to try to handle things. The basic problem is that virtually all of our sports (and most of our society, frankly) are based around a binary system. So if someone demonstrably falls somewhere in the middle, how do you let them participate while still keeping it fair for everyone else? Do you come up with special rules? Do you find a way to 'handicap' them somehow to even things out? Do you just say "we're really sorry, but to keep things fair for the 90%+ of other people, you can't play"? Or do you say they can only play in the more 'difficult' category - i.e. if you're measurably above certain thresholds in whatever they decide is applicable, you can only participate in the men's competitions?

It's a minefield, which is why it might be good to get ahead of things, if possible. Of course, if the person were American a league like the WNBA would probably at least get a few years' warning, because the NCAA would probably have to handle it first. And there's every chance that they'd screw it up to such a degree that the WNBA might at least look decent in comparison...



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PostPosted: 06/29/20 8:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The WNBA would have a good idea of what not to do.



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PostPosted: 06/29/20 10:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy that’s a good question. You’re right, anybody can identify as transgender at any age, and not do anything medically or legally to change their body or name/gender marker and that doesn’t invalidate their gender.
But in this conversation, legally for college I think it would pose a lot of difficulties for them. I can’t claim to know the college athlete process with documentation and rules. But I imagine it would be difficult to be accepted to a women’s team if legally your gender is still what was assigned at birth (male).

That’s something I’m wondering about though....

Say I have a kid who is 9 and finally feels comfortable and shares that she is transgender (assigned male at birth, identifies as female).
So, around age 10/11 my partner and I decide to put her on hormone blockers, and soon after, estrogen (as she desires).

Now I have a pre-teen who will go through ‘puberty’ as a female in all ways. And my partner and I are able to legally change her name, and gender marker before she hits middle school.

Fast forward to high school and she’s legally female, and her name ‘reflects’ this. We have also done the changes to her social security and birth certificate.

She’s competing as a female high school athlete, her friends and family have known her as a girl since that age of 9 and she came out. She has been on testosterone blockers since pre puberty, and also started estrogen soon after.

She gets recruited. Legally she’s been female since we changed that around age 10/11 when she started hormone blockers.

Nobody would have to know she’s transgender right? Because we would in this scenario have been privileged enough to have started the process early for her.
Legally on all documents her name and gender has changed. Her muscle mass has grown (or not grown as much/easily) based on her estrogen levels.


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PostPosted: 06/30/20 9:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's a very complicated issue, no doubt, as Renee Richards proved. She transitioned late in life and was very successful on the women's tennis tour despite relatively advanced age. And there's this quote from the Wikipedia page:

Richards has since expressed ambivalence about her legacy, and came to believe her past as a man provided her with advantages over her competitors, saying "Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I'd had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I've reconsidered my opinion."[20][21]



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