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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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 Posted: 01/23/20 1:37 pm ::: |
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| TigerVol wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
I don't know the details, obviously, but it seems logical that the rent and operations' cost of a 4,500-seat arena is going to be less, maybe a lot less, than the rent and operations' cost of a 15,000-seat arena, even if the upper areas are curtained off.
If that's the case, then teams in smaller arenas will be closer to profitability, and maybe there would be actual interest in purchasing an existing franchise -- which has always been to me the sign that the WNBA can stand on its own.
So here's hoping this works in Atlanta as well as it did in Washington, and that other areas explore the concept of new 4,500-seat arenas, or recently built older ones. The ambiance of 2,500 people in a small arena is much, much different than in a big one, and all the emotional aspects of the game are magnified, which of course is a huge part of the fan experience.
And there's absolutely nothing better for the league than sellouts with people unable to get tickets to games they really want to see. |
I don't remember the number exactly but remember thinking the cost per game for the new arena was a serious bargain...even without knowing other details. |
The AJC reported that the Skyhawks were paying 5k per game. Gives a reference point for what the Dream might be paying.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 01/23/20 2:02 pm ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
| TigerVol wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
I don't know the details, obviously, but it seems logical that the rent and operations' cost of a 4,500-seat arena is going to be less, maybe a lot less, than the rent and operations' cost of a 15,000-seat arena, even if the upper areas are curtained off.
If that's the case, then teams in smaller arenas will be closer to profitability, and maybe there would be actual interest in purchasing an existing franchise -- which has always been to me the sign that the WNBA can stand on its own.
So here's hoping this works in Atlanta as well as it did in Washington, and that other areas explore the concept of new 4,500-seat arenas, or recently built older ones. The ambiance of 2,500 people in a small arena is much, much different than in a big one, and all the emotional aspects of the game are magnified, which of course is a huge part of the fan experience.
And there's absolutely nothing better for the league than sellouts with people unable to get tickets to games they really want to see. |
I don't remember the number exactly but remember thinking the cost per game for the new arena was a serious bargain...even without knowing other details. |
The AJC reported that the Skyhawks were paying 5k per game. Gives a reference point for what the Dream might be paying. |
That’s sounds like a good deal. Does that include utilities and personnel?
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 01/23/20 2:17 pm ::: |
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| Don't think there were any more details. Also unclear who gets concessions and parking money, but that could make a difference as well.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 01/23/20 5:46 pm ::: |
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| TigerVol wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
Agreed. If this doesn't work, it will be because the team isn't any good, and/or the "right" people determine that College Park isn't "convenient" to travel to. |
What is that supposed to mean? |
In this isolated and specific context, it means the fans who live north of Atlanta, where all the money is.
At a different point in time, and in a different context, I may mean it as code for something else. It just so happens that I didn't, this time.
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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| Posted: 01/23/20 6:31 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| TigerVol wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
Agreed. If this doesn't work, it will be because the team isn't any good, and/or the "right" people determine that College Park isn't "convenient" to travel to. |
What is that supposed to mean? |
In this isolated and specific context, it means the fans who live north of Atlanta, where all the money is.
At a different point in time, and in a different context, I may mean it as code for something else. It just so happens that I didn't, this time. |
For those who want to know more about the socioeconomic + racial differences demographically between Atlanta and the suburbs/counties its surrounded by, as it relates to sports, I read this fascinating and substantial (imo) Sports Illustrated article from last October that details them as they relate to the main baseball and main soccer teams. It doesn't mention the Dream, but it gave me - someone who has never even been to Georgia - a greater understanding of the nuances of essentially two different cultures beyond the original "Atlanta's Black, The Rest of Georgia's White" premise I had.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 01/23/20 7:16 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| TigerVol wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
Agreed. If this doesn't work, it will be because the team isn't any good, and/or the "right" people determine that College Park isn't "convenient" to travel to. |
What is that supposed to mean? |
In this isolated and specific context, it means the fans who live north of Atlanta, where all the money is.
At a different point in time, and in a different context, I may mean it as code for something else. It just so happens that I didn't, this time. |
So College Park is in a poorer part of Atlanta that's difficult for the richer folks to get to?
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Silky Johnson
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| Posted: 01/23/20 8:03 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
So College Park is in a poorer part of Atlanta that's difficult for the richer folks to get to? |
I mean, I-85 does run through College Park, but "difficult to get to" from the perspective of public transportation, yes. The literal terminal end of the train's run is the airport itself. Only buses get any closer to the arena than that, and there's no shuttle from the airport to the arena that I am aware of, so multiple connections may be involved. It may actually be harder to get to, in general, but I live in Riverdale, so I've never tried to get to Gateway from the interstate.
And yes, if you want to consider College Park to be part of Atlanta, rather than its own separate city, it is indeed in a poorer part of Atlanta.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 01/23/20 8:11 pm ::: |
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| The SkyTrain stops at the arena and is free. That's the easiest way to get there from the airport.
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Silky Johnson
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TigerVol
Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 01/23/20 9:23 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| TigerVol wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
Agreed. If this doesn't work, it will be because the team isn't any good, and/or the "right" people determine that College Park isn't "convenient" to travel to. |
What is that supposed to mean? |
In this isolated and specific context, it means the fans who live north of Atlanta, where all the money is.
At a different point in time, and in a different context, I may mean it as code for something else. It just so happens that I didn't, this time. |
That is why I asked.
Though the air quotes imply that it isn't inconvenient.
It is.
Getting to the airport area during week night rush hour is inconvenient from most of the north and east (about 2/3 rd of the home games).
Those who choose to attend from those areas are doing so or able to despite the inconvenience.
Same principle would apply if they moved to Gwinnett.
Fanbase was built on a central location. Anything less central cuts off some of the existing base.
They will have to rebuild and grow fans from folks in college park, the city, the west and south.
Probably lost some STH income. Probably has been declining and not just because of the move. May take time to rebuild back to that guaranteed base income level.
But even without the STH there should be MORE than enough people who live/work in the area or have easy commute... with more than enough money to consistently draw 4K.
Need to win.
Really need to have easy and consistent access to watch the game. That can attract the casual fan flipping or scanning around.
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TigerVol
Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 01/23/20 9:45 pm ::: |
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| Stormeo wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| TigerVol wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
Agreed. If this doesn't work, it will be because the team isn't any good, and/or the "right" people determine that College Park isn't "convenient" to travel to. |
What is that supposed to mean? |
In this isolated and specific context, it means the fans who live north of Atlanta, where all the money is.
At a different point in time, and in a different context, I may mean it as code for something else. It just so happens that I didn't, this time. |
For those who want to know more about the socioeconomic + racial differences demographically between Atlanta and the suburbs/counties its surrounded by, as it relates to sports, I read this fascinating and substantial (imo) Sports Illustrated article from last October that details them as they relate to the main baseball and main soccer teams. It doesn't mention the Dream, but it gave me - someone who has never even been to Georgia - a greater understanding of the nuances of essentially two different cultures beyond the original "Atlanta's Black, The Rest of Georgia's White" premise I had. |
Some good info.
Atlanta United is the most diverse and electric crowd in any sport. Diverse is every way possible and generally "united" by support for the team. It is what sports should be like.
On the Braves move... They didn't mention it was a sweetheart deal done under cover of night that got many/most of those in Cobb who enable the deal voted out next election. Also made them a lot of money.
Is pretty accurate about the Fanbase but the general area is pretty diverse and growing more so. Was once rigedly conservative across the board. Still is in pockets but getting close to a flip to blue.
Not sure what you are interested in with the dream relative to the article. I think in general th fanbase came from the city and surrounding suburbs. Some folks made long treks from various directions.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 01/23/20 10:35 pm ::: |
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| TigerVol wrote: |
| Atlanta United is the most diverse and electric crowd in any sport. Diverse is every way possible and generally "united" by support for the team. It is what sports should be like. |
Meh... that strikes me as a claim that's dubious, at best. And, even taking it at face value, there are different standards of diverse: when I look at pictures of United fans on their official Instagram page, I still don't see a lot of people that look like me...
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ClayK
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| Posted: 01/24/20 10:25 am ::: |
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OK, so I have no idea about Atlanta geography ...
It sounds like the new location is going to be tougher to get to for the fans who went to games at the old location.
So what are the demographics of the new location? Rich, poor, urban (code), suburban (code)? Talking around this makes sense to those who are familiar with Atlanta, but I've only been there once and all I remember is that the traffic was terrible 25 years ago.
And really, the bottom line: Is the new location convenient for the typical WNBA fan base, lesbians and families with girls who play basketball? Or is Atlanta's fan base different?
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TigerVol
Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 01/24/20 12:39 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| TigerVol wrote: |
| Atlanta United is the most diverse and electric crowd in any sport. Diverse is every way possible and generally "united" by support for the team. It is what sports should be like. |
Meh... that strikes me as a claim that's dubious, at best. And, even taking it at face value, there are different standards of diverse: when I look at pictures of United fans on their official Instagram page, I still don't see a lot of people that look like me... |
I said diverse Fanbase and diverse crowd though you are right - I suppose everyone has a different definition of diverse. I tend to mean everyone doesn't look the same whether many or only a few look like me in one way or another.
No idea what you look like but watch a game or go to a game.
Diverse on race, country of origin, gender, orientation, age.
I'm not suggesting there is some equal percentage of representation across every possible combination but I'd be surprised if you went to a match and felt like one of those things is not like the other... Or felt in any way unwelcome... Unless you hate soccer...or wear a rival kit.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 01/24/20 2:48 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
OK, so I have no idea about Atlanta geography ...
It sounds like the new location is going to be tougher to get to for the fans who went to games at the old location.
So what are the demographics of the new location? Rich, poor, urban (code), suburban (code)? Talking around this makes sense to those who are familiar with Atlanta, but I've only been there once and all I remember is that the traffic was terrible 25 years ago.
And really, the bottom line: Is the new location convenient for the typical WNBA fan base, lesbians and families with girls who play basketball? Or is Atlanta's fan base different? |
Having just moved to Atlanta last month after 16 years in Phoenix, I cannot answer Clay's questions about demographics,.
State Farm Arena, where the Dream played last year, is in Midtown - and pretty accessible from a lot of different neighborhoods, downtown, Buckhead, etc.
Gateway Center Arena @ College Park is 11 miles south of State Farm Arena. It is, however, very close to the airport (and, as an aside, only 2.5 miles from my office).
I did some research regarding public transportation to the arena based on possible starting destinations:
--- The MARTA Red Line train goes from the Buckhead station to the airport, which puts you within walking distance of the venue.
--- From Decatur, it would involve taking the MARTA Blue Line train for six stops, then transferring to the MARTA Gold or Red train for 7 stops -- but with the trains and the parts where walking is required, it will take an estimated 50 minutes coming from Decatur to the arena for a game (and that is starting at the Decatur Station; additional time is necessary to get to the station).
As an aside, I live in East Atlanta Village. The arena is 12 miles from my residence, but the overwhelming majority of it is freeway travel.
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Randy
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| Posted: 01/24/20 3:08 pm ::: |
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Here is a map. The patch of reddish ground next to G3 (Georgia International Convention center) is now the arena. Seems to me that on weekdays the easiest way to get there would be ride Marta to the airport then take the Skytrain to the arena - no need to walk. (Visiting teams will probably love this place. Get off the plane, go to the Arena or one of the hotels also on site.) From the furthest North spot on Marta it would be about 50 minutes. Anywhere S of that on the N-S line would be quicker. On weekends the drive from the same area would be about 35 minutes. Looks like there should be plenty of parking available. On weeknights it could be a long haul for anyone who has to go through the city on I75/85. Of course, that was also true to SF Arena, but a little less so for McCammish. It generally would take me about 45 minutes to drive to SF Arena from the northside. I used to pick up my daughter from work at 6 and were never late for tip-off. (Use the Sat view.)
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6433327,-84.4565033,942m/data=!3m1!1e3
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 01/24/20 3:20 pm ::: |
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| It's only about a five minute walk from the airport to the arena
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TigerVol
Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 01/24/20 4:24 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
OK, so I have no idea about Atlanta geography ...
It sounds like the new location is going to be tougher to get to for the fans who went to games at the old location.
So what are the demographics of the new location? Rich, poor, urban (code), suburban (code)? Talking around this makes sense to those who are familiar with Atlanta, but I've only been there once and all I remember is that the traffic was terrible 25 years ago.
And really, the bottom line: Is the new location convenient for the typical WNBA fan base, lesbians and families with girls who play basketball? Or is Atlanta's fan base different? |
I don't believe the potential Fanbase is clustered in one neighborhood to live or work regardless of the demographic.
The location can be convenient for potential fans who are in the city, in college park, to the south of college park or to the west of college park.
The current point is less potential fans (we are only talking 4k - should be plenty of potential) and more the current engaged Fanbase.
Location was central. Fanbase came from city, and all directions around the city.
Location is not central making it inconvenient enough to lose some of the existing STH (certain and known $ to team) and game to game Fanbase. I should probably say remaining because it has been in decline for various reasons.
The bottom line is the team needs to drive interest from potential fans who have NOT previously been interested to fill the gaps.
Best way to do that is WIN and target the previously untapped areas that now DO now have easy access from work or home..and cross sell against the sky hawks Fanbase for their summer bball fix.
May take a minute to rebuild STH but should be able to regularly fill the area single or package purchasers.
Don't know how well they'd withstand a blow up and rebuild or repeat of say cooper's last season. Bad timing.
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Randy
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| Posted: 01/24/20 5:18 pm ::: |
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| Last season was worse than Cooper's last season. Another factor is to what extent does the Senator's campaign alienates existing fans. I don't think it is going to help at all.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 01/24/20 6:00 pm ::: |
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| I'm still holding out hope that Gateway Arena is only temporary and they move to Georgia State's new arena if it's ready for 2022.
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Silky Johnson
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| Posted: 01/24/20 9:58 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| So what are the demographics of the new location? Rich, poor, urban (code), suburban (code)? Talking around this makes sense to those who are familiar with Atlanta, but I've only been there once and all I remember is that the traffic was terrible 25 years ago. |
College Park is something like 80 percent black. It's... not rich.
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Silky Johnson
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| Posted: 01/24/20 10:01 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| It's only about a five minute walk from the airport to the arena |
This seems like an exaggeration, unless you're a professional race-walker, or something. Did you mean a five minute walk from the absolute edge of the airport's property to the arena? Because I guess that could be true.
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TigerVol
Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 01/24/20 10:02 pm ::: |
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| Randy wrote: |
| Last season was worse than Cooper's last season. Another factor is to what extent does the Senator's campaign alienates existing fans. I don't think it is going to help at all. |
The product on the court was far better despite the record but you are right the overall vibe was not good last season.
Partly because state farm decided to be difficult (for whatever reason) but more to it than that. Almost like there were so many changes coming some things outside of the game were mailed in - top down.
Yea. Political stuff won't help. Could easily hurt. Especially if she ends up in a battle of who can be most appealing to the statewide base.
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pilight
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| Posted: 01/24/20 10:15 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| It's only about a five minute walk from the airport to the arena |
This seems like an exaggeration, unless you're a professional race-walker, or something. Did you mean a five minute walk from the absolute edge of the airport's property to the arena? Because I guess that could be true. |
That's what Google Maps said.
Plus, College Park has the reputation of being a place you don't want to walk much, especially for a night game, so I'd expect people to move faster.
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WNBA 09
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| Posted: 01/25/20 8:46 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| It's only about a five minute walk from the airport to the arena |
This seems like an exaggeration, unless you're a professional race-walker, or something. Did you mean a five minute walk from the absolute edge of the airport's property to the arena? Because I guess that could be true. |
That's what Google Maps said.
Plus, College Park has the reputation of being a place you don't want to walk much, especially for a night game, so I'd expect people to move faster. |
Unless you’ve been to Atlanta and have seen the route from the airport to the arena I’d take silkys word for it. I myself can personally tell you there’s NO WAY IN HELL anyone would make that walk lol!
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