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Carol Anne
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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 Posted: 08/11/19 12:54 pm ::: Kobe Bryant Doesn’t Get to Use Women’s Sports as Redempt |
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Kobe Bryant, Accused Rapist, Doesn’t Get to Use Women’s Sports as His Redemption Arc
...Aside from the fact that it’s weird to make a male athlete the face of a women’s sport, the fact is that Bryant faced a disturbing rape allegation. His accuser had bruises on her neck and jaw, lacerations in her vagina, and she was smeared for months by the press and by Bryant’s defense team. He essentially confirmed her story with a statement that was read by Bryant’s attorney in court: “Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did,” Bryant wrote. “After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.”...
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-bryant-accused-rapist-doesnt-get-to-use-womens-sports-as-his-redemption-arc
I've been saying this for years. Finally! 
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
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| Posted: 08/11/19 6:16 pm ::: Re: Kobe Bryant Doesn’t Get to Use Women’s Sports as Red |
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| Carol Anne wrote: |
Kobe Bryant, Accused Rapist, Doesn’t Get to Use Women’s Sports as His Redemption Arc
...Aside from the fact that it’s weird to make a male athlete the face of a women’s sport, the fact is that Bryant faced a disturbing rape allegation. His accuser had bruises on her neck and jaw, lacerations in her vagina, and she was smeared for months by the press and by Bryant’s defense team. He essentially confirmed her story with a statement that was read by Bryant’s attorney in court: “Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did,” Bryant wrote. “After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.”...
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-bryant-accused-rapist-doesnt-get-to-use-womens-sports-as-his-redemption-arc
I've been saying this for years. Finally! |
Thanks for posting this powerful piece.
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miller40
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 1334
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| Posted: 08/11/19 6:20 pm ::: Re: Kobe Bryant Doesn’t Get to Use Women’s Sports as Red |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| Carol Anne wrote: |
Kobe Bryant, Accused Rapist, Doesn’t Get to Use Women’s Sports as His Redemption Arc
...Aside from the fact that it’s weird to make a male athlete the face of a women’s sport, the fact is that Bryant faced a disturbing rape allegation. His accuser had bruises on her neck and jaw, lacerations in her vagina, and she was smeared for months by the press and by Bryant’s defense team. He essentially confirmed her story with a statement that was read by Bryant’s attorney in court: “Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did,” Bryant wrote. “After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.”...
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-bryant-accused-rapist-doesnt-get-to-use-womens-sports-as-his-redemption-arc
I've been saying this for years. Finally! |
Thanks for posting this powerful piece. |
Yes, thank you.
I’m acquaintances with an NBA scout who has always said what Kobe did to that woman was way worse than anything that ever became public.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 14109
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| Posted: 08/11/19 8:19 pm ::: |
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| I get people don’t like him and feel he hasn’t made amends for his past actions, but I don’t like the angle this article takes because it sounds as if his support of the WNBA and attending WNBA games is a new thing since his retirement and the only reason he goes to games is because of his daughters. But it doesn’t mention he used to go to Sparks games in the 90s and 2000s, that he went to Detroit to watch the 2003 finals, that he used to work out with Sparks players during the off season to help them get ready for the season.
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 5353
Location: Fayetteville
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| Posted: 08/11/19 10:33 pm ::: Re: Kobe Bryant Doesn’t Get to Use Women’s Sports as Red |
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| miller40 wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| Carol Anne wrote: |
Kobe Bryant, Accused Rapist, Doesn’t Get to Use Women’s Sports as His Redemption Arc
...Aside from the fact that it’s weird to make a male athlete the face of a women’s sport, the fact is that Bryant faced a disturbing rape allegation. His accuser had bruises on her neck and jaw, lacerations in her vagina, and she was smeared for months by the press and by Bryant’s defense team. He essentially confirmed her story with a statement that was read by Bryant’s attorney in court: “Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did,” Bryant wrote. “After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.”...
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-bryant-accused-rapist-doesnt-get-to-use-womens-sports-as-his-redemption-arc
I've been saying this for years. Finally! |
Thanks for posting this powerful piece. |
Yes, thank you.
I’m acquaintances with an NBA scout who has always said what Kobe did to that woman was way worse than anything that ever became public. |
Just curious, if that is truly the case and they could prove what they are saying why didn't they come forward during the investigation? |
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Carol Anne
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
Posts: 1739
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: 08/12/19 9:21 am ::: Re: Kobe Bryant Doesn’t Get to Use Women’s Sports as Red |
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| hyperetic wrote: |
| miller40 wrote: |
]I’m acquaintances with an NBA scout who has always said what Kobe did to that woman was way worse than anything that ever became public. |
Just curious, if that is truly the case and they could prove what they are saying why didn't they come forward during the investigation? |
hyperetic, that's irony, I hope.
No way could an NBA scout speak out. First, it would be gossip, since he wasn't a witness. Second, he'd lose his job (and maybe his life).
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 5353
Location: Fayetteville
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| Posted: 08/13/19 12:28 pm ::: Re: Kobe Bryant Doesn’t Get to Use Women’s Sports as Red |
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| Carol Anne wrote: |
| hyperetic wrote: |
| miller40 wrote: |
]I’m acquaintances with an NBA scout who has always said what Kobe did to that woman was way worse than anything that ever became public. |
Just curious, if that is truly the case and they could prove what they are saying why didn't they come forward during the investigation? |
hyperetic, that's irony, I hope.
No way could an NBA scout speak out. First, it would be gossip, since he wasn't a witness. Second, he'd lose his job (and maybe his life). |
That's the thing I was getting at. Without proof or verifiable eyewitness testimony, all you have is gossip. So basically the scout is making an unsubstantiated statement as fact. Whatever Kobe is PROVEN guilty of, hold him accountable but not for "gossip" and "rumors". |
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 08/13/19 12:39 pm ::: Re: Kobe Bryant Doesn’t Get to Use Women’s Sports as Red |
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| hyperetic wrote: |
| That's the thing I was getting at. Without proof or verifiable eyewitness testimony, all you have is gossip. So basically the scout is making an unsubstantiated statement as fact. Whatever Kobe is PROVEN guilty of, hold him accountable but not for "gossip" and "rumors". |
"Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter." --- Kobe Bryant
https://www.thenation.com/article/wrestling-in-with-kobe-bryants-forgotten-apology/
https://thinkprogress.org/the-legacy-of-the-kobe-bryant-rape-case-6a42f159be7b/
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 19757
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| Posted: 08/13/19 2:11 pm ::: Re: Kobe Bryant Doesn’t Get to Use Women’s Sports as Red |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| hyperetic wrote: |
| That's the thing I was getting at. Without proof or verifiable eyewitness testimony, all you have is gossip. So basically the scout is making an unsubstantiated statement as fact. Whatever Kobe is PROVEN guilty of, hold him accountable but not for "gossip" and "rumors". |
"Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter." --- Kobe Bryant
https://www.thenation.com/article/wrestling-in-with-kobe-bryants-forgotten-apology/
https://thinkprogress.org/the-legacy-of-the-kobe-bryant-rape-case-6a42f159be7b/ |
I’m not one to use that apology as evidence towards anything.
Essentially, the case would be dropped against him if he wrote an apology letter. Anyone would write the letter under that circumstance, and there is no way to apologize in a letter without saying something like that.
The facts are, that the alleged victim’s attorney could not find even one instance of Bryant groping a woman. There has been no mention or whisper of Bryant even so much as disrespecting a woman sense. The case was dropped. At what point does he deserve the benefit of the doubt?
Kobe has been a staunch advocate of woman’s athletics, and he’s done it in precisely the right way. (Keeping attention and focus on the women). I don’t think it has anything to do with trying to repair his image with women (after all, he doesn’t have to. He works in a male dominated arena where he is idolized for the most part. He’s not going to lose out on many - if any - opportunities to do what he wants), but rather wanting to encourage athletics in his daughters. And, IMO, introducing them and getting them excited about women athletes is what a dad should do.
_________________
“Anyone point out that a Donald Trump anagram is ‘Lord Dampnut’”- Colin Mochrie
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 08/13/19 2:28 pm ::: Re: Kobe Bryant Doesn’t Get to Use Women’s Sports as Red |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| hyperetic wrote: |
| That's the thing I was getting at. Without proof or verifiable eyewitness testimony, all you have is gossip. So basically the scout is making an unsubstantiated statement as fact. Whatever Kobe is PROVEN guilty of, hold him accountable but not for "gossip" and "rumors". |
"Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter." --- Kobe Bryant
https://www.thenation.com/article/wrestling-in-with-kobe-bryants-forgotten-apology/
https://thinkprogress.org/the-legacy-of-the-kobe-bryant-rape-case-6a42f159be7b/ |
I’m not one to use that apology as evidence towards anything.
Essentially, the case would be dropped against him if he wrote an apology letter. Anyone would write the letter under that circumstance, and there is no way to apologize in a letter without saying something like that.
The facts are, that the alleged victim’s attorney could not find even one instance of Bryant groping a woman. There has been no mention or whisper of Bryant even so much as disrespecting a woman sense. The case was dropped. At what point does he deserve the benefit of the doubt? |
First, the terms of the settlement were not publicly released. While the apology was submitted, the specific terms of the settlement being undisclosed to the public.
Second, I did not realize that a person had to grope or assault other women to be charged with groping or assaulting one particular woman. While prior bad acts (Rule of Evidence 404(b)) can be admitted in certain contexts, the mere fact that Bryant may not have been alleged to have groped or assaulted any other woman is not dispositive.
Third, he admitted to having sex with his accuser. He admitted that he understood she believed it was not consensual. Normally, as part of settlement agreements in civil assault cases, an amount of money is paid (to avoid going to trial), with an express denial of liability as part of the agreement. That was not the case here.
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/13/19 4:48 pm ::: Re: Kobe Bryant Doesn’t Get to Use Women’s Sports as Red |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
First, the terms of the settlement were not publicly released. While the apology was submitted, the specific terms of the settlement being undisclosed to the public. |
According to the LA Times it was a part of the settlement, I think it would be foolish to assume otherwise. Honestly, why would he do that at all if not?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2005-mar-03-sp-bryant3-story.html%3f_amp=true
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
Second, I did not realize that a person had to grope or assault other women to be charged with groping or assaulting one particular woman. While prior bad acts (Rule of Evidence 404(b)) can be admitted in certain contexts, the mere fact that Bryant may not have been alleged to have groped or assaulted any other woman is not dispositive. |
Of course not.
I am not only a victim of sexual assault, but I am also a victim of significant sexual harrassment (in which I actually received advice on what to do, on this board) I also have real and extensive experience in working and advocating for sexual (and Domestic) assault survivors.
I don't tread lightly here. The Bryant case was simply unusual in character assessment of a rapist.
Generally speaking powerful men whom are guilty of sexual assault have more than one victim. They don't have a record of respect towards women and active feminism.
Which brings me to my point in that paragraph. The evidence in the case that was available to the media was certainly not conclusive. The character evidence of Bryant is not in line with the profile of a rapist. Doesn't he not deserve the benefit of the doubt?
Could it be that Bryant is simply too smart to risk doing something he likes again, that he got caught the first time? Sure. Could it be that Bryant's active support of women's athletics (and women in general) is a front? Of course. It's just unusual.
Much more typical is..Cosby, Rothensburger, Weinstein, Spacey, Trump, Jackson, O'Rielly, Moore..heck..even Katy Perry has multiple accusers. (And an active history of disrespect towards women for those accused of assaulting women )
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
Third, he admitted to having sex with his accuser. He admitted that he understood she believed it was not consensual. Normally, as part of settlement agreements in civil assault cases, an amount of money is paid (to avoid going to trial), with an express denial of liability as part of the agreement. That was not the case here. |
Again, I think it's obvious in this letter that Bryant was trying to say he wasn't guilty, but there is just no way to do that and also apologize. BTW: Bryant had admitted to having sex with his accuser far before the apology was given.
I also think it's likely, that if the alleged victim was willing to settle at all, Bryant was likely willing to do what she asked. You never know what happens at a trial.
Bryant also likely got a confidentiality agreement as part of the settlement. Most articles thought that would be the case, and that probably meant more to him than express denial of what happened on her part.
Regardless, if she had stated that the incident was consensual, is that not a new criminal charge?
A lot Sexual Assault cases come down to "who is lying." Most of the time it's the accused. But I don't know if it's fair to paint this particular case with that brush.
And given the totality of the facts and his actions prior and after the case, I personally think he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I don't want him as the face of women's athletics (odd suggestion), but I have found him (and Curry) to be particularly strong allies.
_________________
“Anyone point out that a Donald Trump anagram is ‘Lord Dampnut’”- Colin Mochrie
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Carol Anne
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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Location: Fayetteville
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| Posted: 08/14/19 12:34 pm ::: Re: Kobe Bryant Doesn’t Get to Use Women’s Sports as Red |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| hyperetic wrote: |
| That's the thing I was getting at. Without proof or verifiable eyewitness testimony, all you have is gossip. So basically the scout is making an unsubstantiated statement as fact. Whatever Kobe is PROVEN guilty of, hold him accountable but not for "gossip" and "rumors". |
"Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter." --- Kobe Bryant
https://www.thenation.com/article/wrestling-in-with-kobe-bryants-forgotten-apology/
https://thinkprogress.org/the-legacy-of-the-kobe-bryant-rape-case-6a42f159be7b/ |
Like I said, "Proven guilty of." I took issue with the spreading of unsubstantiated gossip that is about what he may have did being way worse than what was made public. I say stick to the proven. |
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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Location: Heisenberg
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| Posted: 08/16/19 8:24 pm ::: |
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The article linked in the OP is a "powerful piece"?
Yes. Powerfully biased. Powerfully selective in the evidence it recites. And powerfully full of animus toward Bryant. But everyone is entitled to her opinion, powerful or otherwise.
There seems to be some confusion about the apology statement Bryant read in court. There were two legal proceedings. One was a criminal proceeding for sexual assault and false imprisonment (not rape). In that case, the alleged victim refused to testify and the case was withdrawn by the prosecutors. It was after this withdrawal that Bryant read his "apology" in the criminal court. That is unusual in a criminal case.
There was also a civil suit. That was settled, presumably for money, about six months after the criminal trial was withdrawn. There was no statement or apology made by Bryant in connection with that civil litigation and no one has spoken about it, presumably because confidentiality agreements were signed.
I read all 57 pages of Bryant's initial interview with the police and all of the alleged victim's statements that were published. Bryant consistently maintained the sexual activity was consensual up until a certain specific point, after which he stopped. The alleged victim agreed that her kissing and some foreplay was consensual "for five minutes", but essentially said she withdrew her consent at an earlier stage than Bryant believed she had withdrawn it.
The evidence that some called "smear tactics" by Bryant's lawyer, but which was uncontroverted as far as I can tell, was that the alleged victim had definitely had intercourse with at least one other man in the prior 72 hours and and also had a history of mental issues, including suicide attempts.
One article said that her mock trial with prosecutors went so badly that they recommended withdrawing the case, as did the alleged victim's nationally famous civil lawyer, Lin Wood of Atlanta, who felt a devastating loss in the criminal case would seriously devalue leverage for a civil settlement. Also, the renowned forensic pathologist, Michael Baden, was dropped as a prosecution witness after he concluded that he couldn't tell from the nature of the injuries whether the sex was consensual or not.
http://articles.latimes.com/2004/nov/06/sports/sp-bryant6
I generally agree with Mercfan and others that this evidentially ambiguous 16 year old case should not be used today to impugn Bryant's consistent and sincere support of women's basketball. |
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