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Shades



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PostPosted: 07/31/19 8:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Defense of McCowan keeps it from going into OT.

61-59 IND final



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tfan



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PostPosted: 07/31/19 8:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
tfan wrote:
Alaina Coates can hold her own in the low post pushing with McCowan who normally has her way in that area.

'Cause nothing says "this player can hold her own" like fouling out in six minutes.


Was watching the debate most of the time. Did she get six fouls for being in a low post pushing contest with McCowan? If not, it is irrelevant to her holding her own with McCowan in the low post pushing contest that is unfortunately a part of the modern game.


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PostPosted: 07/31/19 8:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
tfan wrote:
Alaina Coates can hold her own in the low post pushing with McCowan who normally has her way in that area.

'Cause nothing says "this player can hold her own" like fouling out in six minutes.


Was watching the debate most of the time. Did she get six fouls for being in a low post pushing contest with McCowan? If not, it is irrelevant to her holding her own with McCowan in the low post pushing contest that is unfortunately a part of the modern game.


Play-by-play indicates that McCowan got six free throw attempts as a direct result of three shooting fouls committed by Alaina Coates, and that as many as five of Coates' six fouls were committed against McCowan. Unless you think that McCowan was taking her off the dribble, that whole time?



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PostPosted: 07/31/19 8:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

For what it’s worth, Achonwa leads the Fever in Win Shares, Offensive Win Shares, and Win Shares per 40 minutes. Judge those stats as you may..



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tfan



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PostPosted: 07/31/19 9:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
tfan wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
tfan wrote:
Alaina Coates can hold her own in the low post pushing with McCowan who normally has her way in that area.

'Cause nothing says "this player can hold her own" like fouling out in six minutes.


Was watching the debate most of the time. Did she get six fouls for being in a low post pushing contest with McCowan? If not, it is irrelevant to her holding her own with McCowan in the low post pushing contest that is unfortunately a part of the modern game.


Play-by-play indicates that McCowan got six free throw attempts as a direct result of three shooting fouls committed by Alaina Coates, and that as many as five of Coates' six fouls were committed against McCowan. Unless you think that McCowan was taking her off the dribble, that whole time?


So if Coates hit McCowan on the arm to foul her you think that would demonstrate she couldn't hold her own in the low post pushing contest? I am referring to the players trying to displace each other on the low block - the low post pushing contest. A battle that McCowan typically wins. The way you determine if Coates was not winning it is by how seeing her being successfully pushed by McCowan, not by looking to see if she fouled McCowan (who is listed 3 inches taller).


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PostPosted: 07/31/19 9:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
tfan wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
tfan wrote:
Alaina Coates can hold her own in the low post pushing with McCowan who normally has her way in that area.

'Cause nothing says "this player can hold her own" like fouling out in six minutes.


Was watching the debate most of the time. Did she get six fouls for being in a low post pushing contest with McCowan? If not, it is irrelevant to her holding her own with McCowan in the low post pushing contest that is unfortunately a part of the modern game.


Play-by-play indicates that McCowan got six free throw attempts as a direct result of three shooting fouls committed by Alaina Coates, and that as many as five of Coates' six fouls were committed against McCowan. Unless you think that McCowan was taking her off the dribble, that whole time?


So if Coates hit McCowan on the arm to foul her you think that would demonstrate she couldn't hold her own in the low post pushing contest? I am referring to the players trying to displace each other on the low block - the low post pushing contest. A battle that McCowan typically wins. The way you determine if Coates was not winning it is by how seeing her being successfully pushed by McCowan, not by looking to see if she fouled McCowan (who is listed 3 inches taller).


What does it matter if she can push her if she utterly failed in guarding her?


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PostPosted: 07/31/19 9:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
... The way you determine if Coates was not winning it is by how seeing her being successfully pushed by McCowan, not by looking to see if she fouled McCowan (who is listed 3 inches taller).


That may be how you're doing the math on that. I do not consider a player who can't defend without fouling to be holding their own.



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PostPosted: 07/31/19 9:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Here’s the final defensive stand. The announcer said McCowan got a pair of blocks out of the last sequence, but it looks like she was only credited with one.

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1156732870590943232/pu/vid/1280x720/3bqMdHb7V9Bnouco.mp4



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PostPosted: 07/31/19 10:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
tfan wrote:
... The way you determine if Coates was not winning it is by how seeing her being successfully pushed by McCowan, not by looking to see if she fouled McCowan (who is listed 3 inches taller).


That may be how you're doing the math on that. I do not consider a player who can't defend without fouling to be holding their own.


I didn't say they were "holding their own". I said they were "holding their own in the pushing contest". Only referring to the leg strength issue of which McCowan normally has an advantage.


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PostPosted: 08/01/19 12:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
tfan wrote:
... The way you determine if Coates was not winning it is by how seeing her being successfully pushed by McCowan, not by looking to see if she fouled McCowan (who is listed 3 inches taller).


That may be how you're doing the math on that. I do not consider a player who can't defend without fouling to be holding their own.


I didn't say they were "holding their own". I said they were "holding their own in the pushing contest". Only referring to the leg strength issue of which McCowan normally has an advantage.


That's what I'd call a difference that lacks a distinction: if Coates were "holding their own in the pushing contest," then she'd be in position to play actual defense, and could actually contest the shot, instead of committing fouls like they're going out of style.



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PostPosted: 08/02/19 4:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
tfan wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
tfan wrote:
... The way you determine if Coates was not winning it is by how seeing her being successfully pushed by McCowan, not by looking to see if she fouled McCowan (who is listed 3 inches taller).


That may be how you're doing the math on that. I do not consider a player who can't defend without fouling to be holding their own.


I didn't say they were "holding their own". I said they were "holding their own in the pushing contest". Only referring to the leg strength issue of which McCowan normally has an advantage.


That's what I'd call a difference that lacks a distinction: if Coates were "holding their own in the pushing contest," then she'd be in position to play actual defense, and could actually contest the shot, instead of committing fouls like they're going out of style.


All it takes to hold your own in the pushing contest is to not be moved when McCowan puts her hip into you and starts pushing with historic force. I see a ton of WNBA fouls committed when a player is contesting a shot, particularly in the paint. Coates is fighting to stay in the league so she is easily going to be overly aggressive if given some playing time.


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PostPosted: 08/02/19 6:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What’s especially odd about Coates fouling out so quickly is the apparent league directive to call fewer fouls in the paint.

Unless the league suddenly decided to change their directive after getting numerous complaints of no-calls, and Coates got caught in the crossfire.



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PostPosted: 08/02/19 10:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
All it takes to hold your own in the pushing contest is to not be moved when McCowan puts her hip into you and starts pushing with historic force. I see a ton of WNBA fouls committed when a player is contesting a shot, particularly in the paint. Coates is fighting to stay in the league so she is easily going to be overly aggressive if given some playing time.

How the foul is classified matters. If Coates were holding her own in the pushing contest, McCowan might have gotten free throws, anyway, but Coates would have been charged with reach-in (personal) fouls, not shooting fouls. If Coates was getting called for shooting fouls, then that means that she was swiping at McCowan, when McCowan was in a shooting motion, which means that Coates was not in position to play straight up defense...

... Which means that she lost the pushing contest.



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PostPosted: 09/07/19 4:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
tfan wrote:
All it takes to hold your own in the pushing contest is to not be moved when McCowan puts her hip into you and starts pushing with historic force. I see a ton of WNBA fouls committed when a player is contesting a shot, particularly in the paint. Coates is fighting to stay in the league so she is easily going to be overly aggressive if given some playing time.

How the foul is classified matters. If Coates were holding her own in the pushing contest, McCowan might have gotten free throws, anyway, but Coates would have been charged with reach-in (personal) fouls, not shooting fouls. If Coates was getting called for shooting fouls, then that means that she was swiping at McCowan, when McCowan was in a shooting motion, which means that Coates was not in position to play straight up defense...

... Which means that she lost the pushing contest.


You should scratch "can't take someone off the dribble" from your short list of absolute premises. I would also add "has spin move". I've also seen her step one direction as a fake, turn and step the other direction and shoot while moving off one foot. Probably have to watch the video to determine what happened.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/17IIcpaOO0s" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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PostPosted: 09/07/19 4:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
tfan wrote:

So if Coates hit McCowan on the arm to foul her you think that would demonstrate she couldn't hold her own in the low post pushing contest? I am referring to the players trying to displace each other on the low block - the low post pushing contest. A battle that McCowan typically wins. The way you determine if Coates was not winning it is by how seeing her being successfully pushed by McCowan, not by looking to see if she fouled McCowan (who is listed 3 inches taller).


What does it matter if she can push her if she utterly failed in guarding her?


The refs have made pushing strength a part of modern basketball (although not a fan of that) - a football skill that has also become a basketball skill. Announcers will now say with regard to a basketball player: "she needs to get stronger". I had thought that McCowan was the best ever at moving people. Was surprising to see Coates not being moved when I saw the two going at it on the low block. Although Coates, who was desperaely trying to stay on the roster, may have been putting more effort into it than McCowan.


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PostPosted: 09/07/19 5:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Strength was an even bigger part of the game before the three-point line. That's one reason they widened the key way back when.

It's a physical game, regardless, and if you can add strength while maintaining quickness and explosion, you'll be a better player.



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PostPosted: 09/07/19 6:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Strength was an even bigger part of the game before the three-point line. That's one reason they widened the key way back when.

It's a physical game, regardless, and if you can add strength while maintaining quickness and explosion, you'll be a better player.


There was no pushing when I played boys high school basketball in the early 1970s. If someone was standing at the low post, the defender stood behind him, with their bodies not making contact. There was the notion that you could touch the offensive player on the back, which was supposed to let you better react to their movement, but it was a light touch that did not involve strength.

I think Abdul Jabbar coming into the NBA drastically changed things. His height and hook shot were indefensible which could potentially make games very boring. So they let the defender routinely push him and that ended up becoming a part of the game. But I should go watch YouTube video of the 1960’s NBA to verify things were different in the low post.


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PostPosted: 09/07/19 6:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
I think Abdul Jabbar coming into the NBA drastically changed things. His height and hook shot were indefensible which could potentially make games very boring. So they let the defender routinely push him and that ended up becoming a part of the game. But I should go watch YouTube video of the 1960’s NBA to verify things were different in the low post.


Big men with hook shots dominated the NBA and NCAA from the time of George Mikan



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PostPosted: 09/07/19 9:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
You should scratch "can't take someone off the dribble" from your short list of absolute premises. I would also add "has spin move". I've also seen her step one direction as a fake, turn and step the other direction and shoot while moving off one foot. Probably have to watch the video to determine what happened.


I have no idea how you read, "Unless you think that McCowan was taking her off the dribble, that whole time?" as "McCowan can't take her opponent off the dribble." Did you use some kind of special decoder ring, to get that interpretation of what I wrote? But, since you brought it back up, I'm sure that Margo Dydek took an opponent off the dribble, once, too, doesn't mean it was (or should have been) part of her repertoire. Unless you're trying to make the argument that McCowan took Coates off the dribble on every foul that Coates committed against her, I don't know why you thought you'd made a point.

My post wasn't even a critique of McCowan, in the first place; it was a critique of Coates' defense. So, I don't know how you thought a video of McCowan giving a better player than Coates the blues was going to support your original thesis that Coates held her own against McCowan?



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PostPosted: 09/07/19 9:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Strength was an even bigger part of the game before the three-point line. That's one reason they widened the key way back when.

It's a physical game, regardless, and if you can add strength while maintaining quickness and explosion, you'll be a better player.


There was no pushing when I played boys high school basketball in the early 1970s. If someone was standing at the low post, the defender stood behind him, with their bodies not making contact. There was the notion that you could touch the offensive player on the back, which was supposed to let you better react to their movement, but it was a light touch that did not involve strength.


That's one of the most #TwoAmericas things I've ever heard.



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PostPosted: 09/08/19 11:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Strength was an even bigger part of the game before the three-point line. That's one reason they widened the key way back when.

It's a physical game, regardless, and if you can add strength while maintaining quickness and explosion, you'll be a better player.


There was no pushing when I played boys high school basketball in the early 1970s. If someone was standing at the low post, the defender stood behind him, with their bodies not making contact. There was the notion that you could touch the offensive player on the back, which was supposed to let you better react to their movement, but it was a light touch that did not involve strength.

I think Abdul Jabbar coming into the NBA drastically changed things. His height and hook shot were indefensible which could potentially make games very boring. So they let the defender routinely push him and that ended up becoming a part of the game. But I should go watch YouTube video of the 1960’s NBA to verify things were different in the low post.


I don't doubt your statement, but it sure didn't seem to work that way when I was younger (granted, that was a long time ago). The high school defensive tackle was a force on the block and it wasn't because he was quick.



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PostPosted: 09/08/19 11:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This thread feels half a step away from Sharpie on a weather map territory.


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PostPosted: 09/08/19 12:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
This thread feels half a step away from Sharpie on a weather map territory.


Laughing Laughing Laughing This thread originating from a game in July came back from the dead and is still going. Maybe we should just take a Sharpie to the whole thing Exclamation

Narrator: But they did not take a Sharpie to the whole thing




Last edited by Stormeo on 09/16/19 3:08 am; edited 1 time in total
tfan



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PostPosted: 09/16/19 2:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
tfan wrote:
You should scratch "can't take someone off the dribble" from your short list of absolute premises. I would also add "has spin move". I've also seen her step one direction as a fake, turn and step the other direction and shoot while moving off one foot. Probably have to watch the video to determine what happened.


I have no idea how you read, "Unless you think that McCowan was taking her off the dribble, that whole time?" as "McCowan can't take her opponent off the dribble." Did you use some kind of special decoder ring, to get that interpretation of what I wrote?


I made a statement that Coates was able to hold her own in low-post pushing with McCowan. You asserted that wasn't the case based on your looking at the box score. If "McCowan is not driving to the basket on Coates" is not one of your limited absolute premises, how did you determine - from the box score - that McCowan could push Coates around? Did you use some kind of special decoder ring?

Quote:
But, since you brought it back up, I'm sure that Margo Dydek took an opponent off the dribble, once, too, doesn't mean it was (or should have been) part of her repertoire. Unless you're trying to make the argument that McCowan took Coates off the dribble on every foul that Coates committed against her, I don't know why you thought you'd made a point.


Estimating that Margo Dydek did it once would not mean that it would be correct to estimate McCowan could only do it once. And as mentioned, McCowan has other ways to score that don't involve brute force. She also shoots on putbacks and dishes from driving teammates. And then there is fouls that occur when someone shoots from the low-post starting position (without pushing into the paint). So I don't know why you are so confident the box score tells you what happened regarding pushing between her and Coates.


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PostPosted: 09/16/19 4:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
tfan wrote:
I think Abdul Jabbar coming into the NBA drastically changed things. His height and hook shot were indefensible which could potentially make games very boring. So they let the defender routinely push him and that ended up becoming a part of the game. But I should go watch YouTube video of the 1960’s NBA to verify things were different in the low post.


Big men with hook shots dominated the NBA and NCAA from the time of George Mikan


I don't think anyone ever had as unstoppable a shot as Jabbar. He was so tall and long and his release was so high and his form so consistent. In the snippets they have in these videos from the Mikan and Chamberlain days, I don't see the low-post pushing of today going on.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7awwwHcjQU8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/wcS4DNO2S5o" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>




Last edited by tfan on 09/16/19 4:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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