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MLB suspends player for season after charges are dropped

 
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ClayK



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PostPosted: 07/06/19 10:12 am    ::: MLB suspends player for season after charges are dropped Reply Reply with quote

So Odubel Herrera was first, immediately suspended when domestic abuse charges were filed.

Then, when his girlfriend declined to testify against him, the charges were dropped.

And MLB then suspended him for the rest of the year.

Meanwhile, Riquna Williams is charged with domestic abuse, pulls a gun (according to witnesses) and not only is subsequently signed by a WNBA team, but continues to play.

Doesn't this bother anybody? Why haven't any major media organizations pursued this story?



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PostPosted: 07/06/19 10:16 am    ::: Re: MLB suspends player for season after charges are dropped Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Why haven't any major media organizations pursued this story?


Most of the time, being ignored by the media is bad for the WNBA. But once in a great while? The league ducks the bad press that ought to come their way for lame decisions or, more often, lame indecision.



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miller40



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PostPosted: 07/06/19 10:58 am    ::: Re: MLB suspends player for season after charges are dropped Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:

Doesn't this bother anybody? Why haven't any major media organizations pursued this story?


The WNBA media hardly ever write critical articles about anything, so this feels like more of the same.


justintyme



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PostPosted: 07/06/19 11:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yeah the most prominent sources have been Howard Megdahl's excellent article for High Post Hoops, and Molly Yanity for The Athletic. HPH is unfortunately mostly a fan blog so it just doesn't have the reach, and The Athletic was local and behind a paywall.

Feinberg wrote for the AP, but that was...bad. the framing was all about an accused perpetrator overcoming those pesky distractions of a trial and not being held back. Perseverance yo!

There's a story there. Even one that would have mainstream newsworthiness, because even people who don't follow the WNBA would likely find the way this issue is being handled by a women's league--one that has promoted itself as being socially conscious--compared to how similar situations are handled by the male leagues a compelling story.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 07/06/19 12:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Years ago, James Dolan (Hideous Lord Jimmy) hired sexual harasser Isiah Thomas to be president of the New York Liberty. Thomas returned to the same executive offices in Madison Square Garden where he had sexually harassed Anucha Browne. How much did Liberty fans or other WNBA fans care?

The media didn't care because they don't care about the WNBA. But that wasn't the only problem. Lots of Liberty fans and WNBA fans didn't care because all they care about are the games. As is true for most fans of any sport anywhere.

There was only ONE (small) protest outside Madison Square Garden about the hiring of sexual harasser Isiah Thomas. I was part of it. I'm aware of no protests in Los Angeles regarding Williams.

I respect everyone here who cares about what Riquna Williams did and how that has been handled, just as I respect everyone here who cared about what Isiah Thomas did and how that was handled. There just aren't enough of us. Yet.


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PostPosted: 07/06/19 12:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think athletes private lives should be separate from their roles on the field, court, pitch, etc. The idea of an athlete as a role model is total hogwash anyway. If it affects there role on the team then certainly. This is in keeping with my belief that athletes also have no right to use there game time as a platform tor their personal beliefs. Let the courts decide the issue first and then if the team feels the result impacts their team negatively then they should take action. However, it is not the role of the team to convict or acquit a player of any crime before they face the legal justice system.

Unfortunately, the roles of athletes private and professional lives have been blended via advertisements and endorsements. This just reflects the sheep mentality of the general public that needs validation from famous people to make decisions for them. Advertisers just love that sort of mentality. I mean in what logical reality does a person being a good ballplayer also give them better judgment in respect to issues and products totally unrelated to their skill set.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 07/06/19 1:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

willtalk wrote:
I think athletes private lives should be separate from their roles on the field, court, pitch, etc. The idea of an athlete as a role model is total hogwash anyway. If it affects there role on the team then certainly. This is in keeping with my belief that athletes also have no right to use there game time as a platform tor their personal beliefs. Let the courts decide the issue first and then if the team feels the result impacts their team negatively then they should take action. However, it is not the role of the team to convict or acquit a player of any crime before they face the legal justice system.

Unfortunately, the roles of athletes private and professional lives have been blended via advertisements and endorsements. This just reflects the sheep mentality of the general public that needs validation from famous people to make decisions for them. Advertisers just love that sort of mentality. I mean in what logical reality does a person being a good ballplayer also give them better judgment in respect to issues and products totally unrelated to their skill set.

Since you posted the same thing here you posted in the other thread, I'll post the same response:

This ignores how sports works and why they are as popular as they are.

People build emotional bonds with their fandom, and that is what drives ticket sales, TV viewership, and merchandise purchases. Read through the treads here and see how many people speak of the team they support as "their" team, or use the first person plural pronoun "we" when referencing the things that team does.

And the leagues go out of their way to encourage this sort of connection. They want their fans to identify with their team like this.

So if people see their teams as an extension of themselves, if they have been encouraged to form this sort of emotional bond, it should not be surprising that there is going to be an expectation of behavior from them. And since they are the ones encouraging it and reaping the financial rewards from it, it is more than fair. On the other side they get to have a platform to use as they see fit.

Human beings are social creatures. To do what you are suggesting would require us to stop being human, to ignore how the human brain works and how we form social groups and social attachments. It would be to ignore human neuroscience and neuro-psychology and the formation of human culture since civilization began.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 07/06/19 1:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
willtalk wrote:
I think athletes private lives should be separate from their roles on the field, court, pitch, etc. The idea of an athlete as a role model is total hogwash anyway. If it affects there role on the team then certainly. This is in keeping with my belief that athletes also have no right to use there game time as a platform tor their personal beliefs. Let the courts decide the issue first and then if the team feels the result impacts their team negatively then they should take action. However, it is not the role of the team to convict or acquit a player of any crime before they face the legal justice system.

Unfortunately, the roles of athletes private and professional lives have been blended via advertisements and endorsements. This just reflects the sheep mentality of the general public that needs validation from famous people to make decisions for them. Advertisers just love that sort of mentality. I mean in what logical reality does a person being a good ballplayer also give them better judgment in respect to issues and products totally unrelated to their skill set.

Since you posted the same thing here you posted in the other thread, I'll post the same response:

This ignores how sports works and why they are as popular as they are.

People build emotional bonds with their fandom, and that is what drives ticket sales, TV viewership, and merchandise purchases. Read through the treads here and see how many people speak of the team they support as "their" team, or use the first person plural pronoun "we" when referencing the things that team does.

And the leagues go out of their way to encourage this sort of connection. They want their fans to identify with their team like this.

So if people see their teams as an extension of themselves, if they have been encouraged to form this sort of emotional bond, it should not be surprising that there is going to be an expectation of behavior from them. And since they are the ones encouraging it and reaping the financial rewards from it, it is more than fair. On the other side they get to have a platform to use as they see fit.

Human beings are social creatures. To do what you are suggesting would require us to stop being human, to ignore how the human brain works and how we form social groups and social attachments. It would be to ignore human neuroscience and neuro-psychology and the formation of human culture since civilization began.


justintyme has done an excellent job responding to the many troubling statements by willtalk. I'll just add this. Should athletes, or actors, or anyone in the public eye have "no right" to speak out on important social and political issues? That's outrageous. Who should get to decide which people have the right to speak out? Should clergy be allowed to speak out? Physicians? Factory workers? Day care teachers? Farmers? Athletes who AREN'T famous?

I support the right of Colin Kaepernick, Megan Rapinoe, and other athletes to speak out whenever and in whatever ways they choose. That includes right-wing athletes whose views I detest.


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PostPosted: 07/06/19 2:04 pm    ::: Re: MLB suspends player for season after charges are dropped Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
So Odubel Herrera was first, immediately suspended when domestic abuse charges were filed.

Then, when his girlfriend declined to testify against him, the charges were dropped.

And MLB then suspended him for the rest of the year.

Meanwhile, Riquna Williams is charged with domestic abuse, pulls a gun (according to witnesses) and not only is subsequently signed by a WNBA team, but continues to play.

Doesn't this bother anybody? Why haven't any major media organizations pursued this story?


No one needs major media organizations to pursue the story to understand the differences of treatment between Riquna Williams and Herrera. Just do a little research and think. I won't bother repeating my personal views on the Orwellian inappropriateness of employer preemptive retributive justice.

Here are the three primary reasons for the differential treatment of Williams and Herrera. The third is the most likely, the most legalistic, and the one that requires some modest research and cogitation.

1. Sexism. Against males and in favor of females.

2. Williams is much more important to the WNBA and its revenues than Herrera is to MLB.

3. The MLB contract between the league and the players union specifically included in 2015 a bargained-for and very elaborate Joint Domestic Violence, Sexual Assault and Child Abuse Policy in Attachment 52 to the contract, which comprises 20 pages of detailed definitions, investigative procedures, due process protections, penalties and appeal provisions. In general, violation of the MLB policy requires a "pattern" of abusive behaviors, although a single incident can sometimes suffice, especially where the abuse is against a female domiciled in the household.

The WNBA CBA, in stark contrast, contains no such domestic abuse, sexual assault or child abuse policy. All it has, in Article XIV(1), is a vague, general requirement of "good citizenship, good moral character, and good sportsmanship" and not doing anything detrimental to the WNBA or the sport of basketball. Therefore, MLB has an ironclad contractual legal right to punish Herrera, with detailed procedures, whereas the WNBA does not.

Further, EVEN IF the exact contractual MLB rules applied to the WNBA, Williams DID NOT engage in any domestic violence, any sexual assault or any child abuse under Florida law, or under the MLB definitions, or in fact. Williams was charged with a property crime (burglary) against the home of a third party man named Wilson and with aggravated assault against two third party men, Wilson and his son. Unlike Herrera (unless something's changed), there is no legal charge against Williams with regard to anyone in her household or anyone with whom she has an intimate relationship.

Are these factual and legal distinctions between MLB and WNBA, and Herrera and Williams, not clear.
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PostPosted: 07/06/19 9:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What people are searching for is fairness and justice for all. Justice and fairness will never exist until the current system of government comes to an end.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 07/07/19 12:02 am    ::: Re: MLB suspends player for season after charges are dropped Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
ClayK wrote:
So Odubel Herrera was first, immediately suspended when domestic abuse charges were filed.

Then, when his girlfriend declined to testify against him, the charges were dropped.

And MLB then suspended him for the rest of the year.

Meanwhile, Riquna Williams is charged with domestic abuse, pulls a gun (according to witnesses) and not only is subsequently signed by a WNBA team, but continues to play.

Doesn't this bother anybody? Why haven't any major media organizations pursued this story?



Further, EVEN IF the exact contractual MLB rules applied to the WNBA, Williams DID NOT engage in any domestic violence, any sexual assault or any child abuse under Florida law, or under the MLB definitions, or in fact. Williams was charged with a property crime (burglary) against the home of a third party man named Wilson and with aggravated assault against two third party men, Wilson and his son. Unlike Herrera (unless something's changed), there is no legal charge against Williams with regard to anyone in her household or anyone with whom she has an intimate relationship.

Are these factual and legal distinctions between MLB and WNBA, and Herrera and Williams, not clear.


I agree. Further, I think we should await how the facts emerge before deciding that Riquna Williams should be punished or is guilty of what she has been accused of, both legally and in the media. In a 2014 report, black people in Florida were convicted of felonies at a 40% greater rate than the US average. Putting aside personal opinion about the possibility of a fair trial and sentencing in Florida for Riquna Williams (somewhat skeptical), it's reasonable to believe if she's found not guilty in a high-conviction state such as Florida, she's probably not guilty. I'm not saying that's the case by any stretch. But to me, it's needs to play out before any justice is rendered.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 07/07/19 1:50 am    ::: Re: MLB suspends player for season after charges are dropped Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
ClayK wrote:
So Odubel Herrera was first, immediately suspended when domestic abuse charges were filed.

Then, when his girlfriend declined to testify against him, the charges were dropped.

And MLB then suspended him for the rest of the year.

Meanwhile, Riquna Williams is charged with domestic abuse, pulls a gun (according to witnesses) and not only is subsequently signed by a WNBA team, but continues to play.

Doesn't this bother anybody? Why haven't any major media organizations pursued this story?



Further, EVEN IF the exact contractual MLB rules applied to the WNBA, Williams DID NOT engage in any domestic violence, any sexual assault or any child abuse under Florida law, or under the MLB definitions, or in fact. Williams was charged with a property crime (burglary) against the home of a third party man named Wilson and with aggravated assault against two third party men, Wilson and his son. Unlike Herrera (unless something's changed), there is no legal charge against Williams with regard to anyone in her household or anyone with whom she has an intimate relationship.

Are these factual and legal distinctions between MLB and WNBA, and Herrera and Williams, not clear.


I agree. Further, I think we should await how the facts emerge before deciding that Riquna Williams should be punished or is guilty of what she has been accused of, both legally and in the media. In a 2014 report, black people in Florida were convicted of felonies at a 40% greater rate than the US average. Putting aside personal opinion about the possibility of a fair trial and sentencing in Florida for Riquna Williams (somewhat skeptical), it's reasonable to believe if she's found not guilty in a high-conviction state such as Florida, she's probably not guilty. I'm not saying that's the case by any stretch. But to me, it's needs to play out before any justice is rendered.

Honest question.

Do you believe then that MLB made a mistake in 1) suspending Odubel Herrera with pay immediately upon his arrest and not waiting for a trial to conclude to determine the facts of the case, and now 2) imposing punishment upon Herrera in the form of an 85 game suspension without pay even though the charges against him have now been dropped?



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PostPosted: 07/07/19 8:46 am    ::: Re: MLB suspends player for season after charges are dropped Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
ClayK wrote:
So Odubel Herrera was first, immediately suspended when domestic abuse charges were filed.

Then, when his girlfriend declined to testify against him, the charges were dropped.

And MLB then suspended him for the rest of the year.

Meanwhile, Riquna Williams is charged with domestic abuse, pulls a gun (according to witnesses) and not only is subsequently signed by a WNBA team, but continues to play.

Doesn't this bother anybody? Why haven't any major media organizations pursued this story?



Further, EVEN IF the exact contractual MLB rules applied to the WNBA, Williams DID NOT engage in any domestic violence, any sexual assault or any child abuse under Florida law, or under the MLB definitions, or in fact. Williams was charged with a property crime (burglary) against the home of a third party man named Wilson and with aggravated assault against two third party men, Wilson and his son. Unlike Herrera (unless something's changed), there is no legal charge against Williams with regard to anyone in her household or anyone with whom she has an intimate relationship.

Are these factual and legal distinctions between MLB and WNBA, and Herrera and Williams, not clear.


I agree. Further, I think we should await how the facts emerge before deciding that Riquna Williams should be punished or is guilty of what she has been accused of, both legally and in the media. In a 2014 report, black people in Florida were convicted of felonies at a 40% greater rate than the US average. Putting aside personal opinion about the possibility of a fair trial and sentencing in Florida for Riquna Williams (somewhat skeptical), it's reasonable to believe if she's found not guilty in a high-conviction state such as Florida, she's probably not guilty. I'm not saying that's the case by any stretch. But to me, it's needs to play out before any justice is rendered.

Honest question.

Do you believe then that MLB made a mistake in 1) suspending Odubel Herrera with pay immediately upon his arrest and not waiting for a trial to conclude to determine the facts of the case, and now 2) imposing punishment upon Herrera in the form of an 85 game suspension without pay even though the charges against him have now been dropped?


My understanding based on what I’ve read is that there’s a presence of physical evidence of violence in this case. So given that, no I don’t think MLB made a mistake. I think people are rushing to form an equivalence between Herrera and Williams. As Glenn stated, the two cases aren’t equal even in terms of the charges themselves. In my mind equating the two amounts to a false equivalence. If other details emerge that I’m not privy to then my opinion may change. But for now I can only go with what I’m privy to.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 07/07/19 9:29 am    ::: Re: MLB suspends player for season after charges are dropped Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:


My understanding based on what I’ve read is that there’s a presence of physical evidence of violence in this case. So given that, no I don’t think MLB made a mistake. I think people are rushing to form an equivalence between Herrera and Williams. As Glenn stated, the two cases aren’t equal even in terms of the charges themselves. In my mind equating the two amounts to a false equivalence. If other details emerge that I’m not privy to then my opinion may change. But for now I can only go with what I’m privy to.

There is not any fundamental difference in what Herrera was accused of doing and what Williams is accused of. The biggest difference is the gun charge and the burglary charge (which in Florida is the most serious of them all). The realities of the criminal justice system and how it works in different jurisdictions means that different charges might be filed, but at the heart of it you have two people accused of intimate partner violence (and people need to stop the nonsense about using criminal laws to define what domestic violence is: that is one of the things the experts in the field have been fighting for years, that the legal system's definitions don't come anywhere close to the scope of the issue when they focus on people who share the same dwelling, or who might currently be in a relationship). Also note, Herrera was never charged with domestic violence by the State of New Jersey. It is not something he was criminally accused of. We use the term because that is the category of violence it falls into socially, whether or not the legal definition is met.

As far as physical evidence, in the Herrera case there was said to be minor scratches near her face and a slight mark on her neck. But there was not enough evidence to support charges without her testimony. That is why the charges were dropped.

In the Williams case there are 3 eyewitnesses along with the physical evidence of the slight bruising on her face. The sworn statements of all three witnesses can be heard here:

https://highposthoops.com/2019/06/12/riquna-williams-penny-toler-los-angeles-sparks/

IMO, these two cases are very good mirrors of each other to explore the respective polices of each league and how seriously they take the issue of intimate partner violence.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 07/07/19 12:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Which league cares more about protecting women from domestic abuse?

You can argue all you want, but only the most devious can avoid the obvious.



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 07/07/19 3:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I thought Williams' trial was last week. Any word about it?



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 07/07/19 4:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
I thought Williams' trial was last week. Any word about it?

It hasn't begun yet. The defense waved the right to a speedy trial and made motions to allow Williams to not have to attend pretrial meetings in person. They had a status check hearing on the 3rd (a status check hearing typically gives the prosecution and defense a chance to meet and discuss things like potential pleas, discuss evidence discovery, and set future pretrial meeting dates). In this hearing, it looks like they scheduled a future status check hearing on August 16th.

This was all done by the defense so that her trial wouldn't interfere with her WNBA season.



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PostPosted: 07/07/19 5:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

By the way, Glenn, will you please stop saying that Williams was only "charged with a property crime" re: her attack on her ex-girlfriend. That is not at all an accurate description of what she is being charged with.

Williams is facing two charges as can be seen here:
https://applications.mypalmbeachclerk.com/eCaseView/search.aspx
And looking up:
CASE NUMBER: 50-2019-CF-000743-AXXX-WB
CASE STYLE: WILLIAMS, RIQUNA

The two charges are:

810.02(12A): BURGLARY WITH ASSAULT OR BATTERY

784.021(1A): AGGRAVATED ASSAULT WITH A FIREARM

The first charge is a hybrid charge that combines both a property crime (Burglary) with a violent crime (Battery), and it is what they are alleging that she committed against her ex-girlfriend by forcing her way into the house with the intent to commit a crime (Burglary), and by then beating her (battery). The reason it is charged like this is because this makes it a felony in the first degree and thus is a more severe charge than simple battery would be. For perspective, the charges against Herrera were misdemeanor simple assault charges.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0800-0899/0810/Sections/0810.02.html

The second charge, the Aggravated Assault charge stems from her threatening people with the gun. It is a felony in the 3rd degree.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0784/Sections/0784.021.html



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PostPosted: 07/08/19 7:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
myrtle wrote:
I thought Williams' trial was last week. Any word about it?

It hasn't begun yet. The defense waved the right to a speedy trial and made motions to allow Williams to not have to attend pretrial meetings in person. They had a status check hearing on the 3rd (a status check hearing typically gives the prosecution and defense a chance to meet and discuss things like potential pleas, discuss evidence discovery, and set future pretrial meeting dates). In this hearing, it looks like they scheduled a future status check hearing on August 16th.

This was all done by the defense so that her trial wouldn't interfere with her WNBA season.

Hoopfeed reported that the status check hearing on the 3rd was actually canceled, and the one on the 16th is the rescheduled hearing.

This is the problem with the whole "let the process play out" line of thinking. The defense is just pushing hearings, most likely to force it into the off-season (she won't be able to play internationally since she is out on bail, and that pretty much rules out international travel). With the league sitting on their hands, there is little incentive for Williams to take care of this matter with any alacrity. That means "the process" is a very long one and it makes for terrible optics and branding for a league that continues to suit up a player charged with 2 felonies, one of which comes with a potential sentence of 30 years.



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