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Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 07/02/19 6:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Possibly one of the worst choices ever.



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justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 7570
Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 07/02/19 6:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PER: Collier 16.6; Arike 12.4
TS%: Collier .605; Arike .413
eFG%: Collier .548; Arike .380
ORtg: Collier 110; Arike 93
DRtg: Collier 95; Arike 104
WS: Collier 1.5; Arike .2



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snlMINAJ



Joined: 21 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: 07/03/19 7:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

a true embarrassment


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 59119
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PostPosted: 07/08/19 2:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Tina Charles & Brittney Griner

Charles' 30th
Griner's 7th



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bballgrl



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: 07/08/19 2:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
PER: Collier 16.6; Arike 12.4
TS%: Collier .605; Arike .413
eFG%: Collier .548; Arike .380
ORtg: Collier 110; Arike 93
DRtg: Collier 95; Arike 104
WS: Collier 1.5; Arike .2


I really don't care for Arike. She plays sometimes like she doesn't have team mates. She can not carry the whole team and she needs to share the ball.


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 13340



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PostPosted: 07/08/19 9:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bballgrl wrote:
justintyme wrote:
PER: Collier 16.6; Arike 12.4
TS%: Collier .605; Arike .413
eFG%: Collier .548; Arike .380
ORtg: Collier 110; Arike 93
DRtg: Collier 95; Arike 104
WS: Collier 1.5; Arike .2


I really don't care for Arike. She plays sometimes like she doesn't have team mates. She can not carry the whole team and she needs to share the ball.


If the coaches didn't want her to do exactly what she's doing, she wouldn't be playing, much less starting.

It's not like she's surrounded by scorers, or distributors for that matter. Who would you prefer to have the ball? Brooke McCarty? Kaela Davis? Glory Johnson? The entire team is only shooting 37%.


NYSports56



Joined: 03 Jul 2018
Posts: 577
Location: New Jersey, USA


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PostPosted: 07/08/19 9:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
bballgrl wrote:
justintyme wrote:
PER: Collier 16.6; Arike 12.4
TS%: Collier .605; Arike .413
eFG%: Collier .548; Arike .380
ORtg: Collier 110; Arike 93
DRtg: Collier 95; Arike 104
WS: Collier 1.5; Arike .2


I really don't care for Arike. She plays sometimes like she doesn't have team mates. She can not carry the whole team and she needs to share the ball.


If the coaches didn't want her to do exactly what she's doing, she wouldn't be playing, much less starting.

It's not like she's surrounded by scorers, or distributors for that matter. Who would you prefer to have the ball? Brooke McCarty? Kaela Davis? Glory Johnson? The entire team is only shooting 37%.


ArtBest, I don't want to revisit everything we discussed in the rookie of the month thread, but I meant to ask you if you would have voted for Arike as Rookie of the Month. In that thread (and here) it's been people criticizing Arike, and you defending her. Based on your points, I think it's fair to defend her. But are you also saying you thought she was better than Collier?

Also, if you were drafting right now for an average WNBA team where neither's position was more of a priority than the other's, would you take Arike or Napheesa?


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 13340



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PostPosted: 07/08/19 10:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYSports56 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
bballgrl wrote:
justintyme wrote:
PER: Collier 16.6; Arike 12.4
TS%: Collier .605; Arike .413
eFG%: Collier .548; Arike .380
ORtg: Collier 110; Arike 93
DRtg: Collier 95; Arike 104
WS: Collier 1.5; Arike .2


I really don't care for Arike. She plays sometimes like she doesn't have team mates. She can not carry the whole team and she needs to share the ball.


If the coaches didn't want her to do exactly what she's doing, she wouldn't be playing, much less starting.

It's not like she's surrounded by scorers, or distributors for that matter. Who would you prefer to have the ball? Brooke McCarty? Kaela Davis? Glory Johnson? The entire team is only shooting 37%.


ArtBest, I don't want to revisit everything we discussed in the rookie of the month thread, but I meant to ask you if you would have voted for Arike as Rookie of the Month. In that thread (and here) it's been people criticizing Arike, and you defending her. Based on your points, I think it's fair to defend her. But are you also saying you thought she was better than Collier?

Also, if you were drafting right now for an average WNBA team where neither's position was more of a priority than the other's, would you take Arike or Napheesa?


I was surprised by Arike's selection. I expected the hype and "conventional wisdom" to prevail for Collier. And Collier has played exceptionally well. I would have had no shock or problem with her selection. But if you stop and think about it, the Lynx would win anyhow without her. The Wings would probably be winless without Arike. So do best overall stats win the award? Or does the rookie who has become a leader and produced some wins on a horrible team deserve it? I can see different views. I'm surprised at the WNBA's choice. But if I was drafting, I'd take Ogunbowale. I think she's more of a difference maker now and will be over time.

Let me ask you this. I think Collier is on a perfect team for her. She's consistent, versatile, a good teammate and fits perfectly on a good team and solid franchise like the Lynx. But do you think she could step up, stand out, and take over the starring role on a really bad team, getting her own shots without help to produce needed points?

I've got nothing against Collier. I've liked her since she was in high school. Never understood why Samuelson was the annointed star over her at UConn. But I don't agree that her selection for ROM should have been an iron clad lock like the polls here on Rebkell suggested.


mavcarter



Joined: 02 Sep 2010
Posts: 4875
Location: Chicago


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PostPosted: 07/08/19 10:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

With Ogunbowale being the leading scorer for the Wings, she’s not even 1st in Win Shares on the team. She’s 4th. Then again, I’m not too crazy on advanced stats regarding players on bad teams. But it is still interesting nonetheless..



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justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 7570
Location: Northfield, MN


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PostPosted: 07/08/19 11:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:


I was surprised by Arike's selection. I expected the hype and "conventional wisdom" to prevail for Collier. And Collier has played exceptionally well. I would have had no shock or problem with her selection. But if you stop and think about it, the Lynx would win anyhow without her. The Wings would probably be winless without Arike. So do best overall stats win the award? Or does the rookie who has become a leader and produced some wins on a horrible team deserve it? I can see different views. I'm surprised at the WNBA's choice. But if I was drafting, I'd take Ogunbowale. I think she's more of a difference maker now and will be over time.

Let me ask you this. I think Collier is on a perfect team for her. She's consistent, versatile, a good teammate and fits perfectly on a good team and solid franchise like the Lynx. But do you think she could step up, stand out, and take over the starring role on a really bad team, getting her own shots without help to produce needed points?

I've got nothing against Collier. I've liked her since she was in high school. Never understood why Samuelson was the annointed star over her at UConn. But I don't agree that her selection for ROM should have been an iron clad lock like the polls here on Rebkell suggested.

This is a fair take. While I personally disagree with using the "value added" metric for ROY/ROTM (of course, I don't even like it for MVP, if I were a voter it would go to the "most outstanding player" exclusively), it is not unreasonable to do so.

The one place that Collier brings the most value to the Lynx though, and would any team that drafted her (well, any team with a smart coach) is on defense. Collier has a legit shot at making one of the all-defensive teams this year, imo.



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NYSports56



Joined: 03 Jul 2018
Posts: 577
Location: New Jersey, USA


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PostPosted: 07/09/19 12:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Let me ask you this. I think Collier is on a perfect team for her. She's consistent, versatile, a good teammate and fits perfectly on a good team and solid franchise like the Lynx. But do you think she could step up, stand out, and take over the starring role on a really bad team, getting her own shots without help to produce needed points?


No, I guess Collier could not star on a really bad team the way Arike has. On a team that has expectations of winning, I think it's a different story. If I have a roster that's anything more than bottom rung, I want a player like Collier to add to the chemistry and teamwork instead of a player like Arike whose game is taking over the show for herself.

I disagree that the Lynx would be winning without Collier with their current lineup. Napheesa is the second best player on the Lynx. She's done a whole lot more than simply fit in on an already good team. I don't think Fowles by herself would have a winning record with the rest of this cast.

I could wax poetic about all of the things I believe Collier has brought to the Lynx, but since you seem to admire her game, I don't think that's necessary. I'll just say that I personally feel that all these things outweigh Arike's ability to create her own shot, particularly since those created shots have only gone in 35% of the time. Yes, there was the legendarily bad game, but that's what happens to players who consistently take bad shots. You can't completely throw it out any more than you would throw out the shots she makes when she is on hot streaks.


GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 5639
Location: Heisenberg


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PostPosted: 07/09/19 1:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

RAOY fit in just fine as an integral teammate for four years at Notre Dame -- in offenses that had strong teammates and that were more sophisticated than the Wings' -- and in addition she excelled as a big time, big game shooter. Yeah, a little bit chucky at times, but she was also a great disher on the fast break, especially to Jackie Young.
pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 59119
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 07/15/19 11:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Jonquel Jones & Nneka Ogwumike

Jones' 7th
Ogwumike's 11th



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