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North Carolina really committed to returning WBB to the top?
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CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 05/08/19 4:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:
Charlotte was interviewed, she just wasn't offered the job. Shea Ralph was in the mix too but I'm not sure whether she was offered the job or not. MV and some others believed CB did't "pay" her dues to get the UNC job.


These are facts? I didn't follow any pre-hire news to know this, tho I'd heard Shea's name mentioned, but was she actually contacted/interviewed? Anyway....onward and upward. I really do hope they regain some of their old form.


Charlotte Smith was interviewed, but not offered.

Another mid-major coach was interviewed, but not offered.

No confirmation that Shea Ralph ever interviewed for the position.


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 05/09/19 12:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
Howee wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:
Charlotte was interviewed, she just wasn't offered the job. Shea Ralph was in the mix too but I'm not sure whether she was offered the job or not. MV and some others believed CB did't "pay" her dues to get the UNC job.


These are facts? I didn't follow any pre-hire news to know this, tho I'd heard Shea's name mentioned, but was she actually contacted/interviewed? Anyway....onward and upward. I really do hope they regain some of their old form.


Charlotte Smith was interviewed, but not offered.

Another mid-major coach was interviewed, but not offered.

No confirmation that Shea Ralph ever interviewed for the position.


She may have been called and just said politely that she was not interested. That would not have been talked about by UNC at all.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 05/09/19 4:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
Howee wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:
Charlotte was interviewed, she just wasn't offered the job. Shea Ralph was in the mix too but I'm not sure whether she was offered the job or not. MV and some others believed CB did't "pay" her dues to get the UNC job.


These are facts? I didn't follow any pre-hire news to know this, tho I'd heard Shea's name mentioned, but was she actually contacted/interviewed? Anyway....onward and upward. I really do hope they regain some of their old form.


Charlotte Smith was interviewed, but not offered.

Another mid-major coach was interviewed, but not offered.

No confirmation that Shea Ralph ever interviewed for the position.


She may have been called and just said politely that she was not interested. That would not have been talked about by UNC at all.


Voepel is a buddy of Smith, as I understand it. Doubt she'd be whining about Smith not getting the job if Smith had been offered and said no before Banghart was offerred. That would make Voepel's rant even more ridiculous than it already is.


CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 05/09/19 4:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Voepel is a buddy of Smith, as I understand it. Doubt she'd be whining about Smith not getting the job if Smith had been offered and said no before Banghart was offerred. That would make Voepel's rant even more ridiculous than it already is.


It is incorrect to characterize Voepel as a "buddy" of Smith.

And I can say that, as Voepel is a friend of mine.


Howee



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PostPosted: 05/09/19 11:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Voepel is a buddy of Smith, as I understand it. Doubt she'd be whining about Smith not getting the job if Smith had been offered and said no before Banghart was offerred. That would make Voepel's rant even more ridiculous than it already is.


It is incorrect to characterize Voepel as a "buddy" of Smith.

And I can say that, as Voepel is a friend of mine.


I know, right!? But it's so much more fun to vilify on the grounds of 'hearsay'. I can't WAIT to see the article she writes when YOU don't get the HC job at Duke, Cam. Laughing Laughing (unless, of course, YOU DO get it!)



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linkster



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PostPosted: 05/10/19 2:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Voepel is a buddy of Smith, as I understand it. Doubt she'd be whining about Smith not getting the job if Smith had been offered and said no before Banghart was offerred. That would make Voepel's rant even more ridiculous than it already is.


It is incorrect to characterize Voepel as a "buddy" of Smith.

And I can say that, as Voepel is a friend of mine.


If you read Michele's lengthy piece about Charlotte Smith's career from 12/2017 you might have a different opinion. It is best described as a tribute piece and openly touts her as a candidate for a big HC job. Especially if you compare it to her dismissive description of Banghart's career.

Now maybe Michele has no friendship with Smith but in that case it is hard to see how she can see Smith, a coach with a rather modest resume, as a better alternative to what Michele referred to as "an Ivy Leaguer". I can almost see her eyes rolling as she wrote Ivy League.

No matter how much UNC needs to be brought to justice for their past, Michele screwed up when she threw Banghart under the bus.


Davis4632



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PostPosted: 05/10/19 3:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Voepel is a buddy of Smith, as I understand it. Doubt she'd be whining about Smith not getting the job if Smith had been offered and said no before Banghart was offerred. That would make Voepel's rant even more ridiculous than it already is.


It is incorrect to characterize Voepel as a "buddy" of Smith.

And I can say that, as Voepel is a friend of mine.


She's certainly more a "buddy" (quoted for emphasis) of hers than Banghart is.

Since you seem to "care" (quoted for emphasis) that CB missed out officially meeting the UNC faithful by not having an official presser, she has been doing so this week.


https://twitter.com/TheRamsClub/status/1125540076128296960

https://twitter.com/CoachBanghart/status/1125564174162104320

https://twitter.com/uncwbb/status/1123646194968866821


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 05/10/19 7:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:


And I can say that, as Voepel is a friend of mine.


Maybe you should have mentioned that detail when you began your crusade to defend her hit piece.


PRballer



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PostPosted: 05/11/19 9:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

linkster wrote:
CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Voepel is a buddy of Smith, as I understand it. Doubt she'd be whining about Smith not getting the job if Smith had been offered and said no before Banghart was offerred. That would make Voepel's rant even more ridiculous than it already is.


It is incorrect to characterize Voepel as a "buddy" of Smith.

And I can say that, as Voepel is a friend of mine.


If you read Michele's lengthy piece about Charlotte Smith's career from 12/2017 you might have a different opinion. It is best described as a tribute piece and openly touts her as a candidate for a big HC job. Especially if you compare it to her dismissive description of Banghart's career.

Now maybe Michele has no friendship with Smith but in that case it is hard to see how she can see Smith, a coach with a rather modest resume, as a better alternative to what Michele referred to as "an Ivy Leaguer". I can almost see her eyes rolling as she wrote Ivy League.

No matter how much UNC needs to be brought to justice for their past, Michele screwed up when she threw Banghart under the bus.


Agree with all this. Sometimes the lines get blurred in journalism - and Voepel has earned the right to be an opinion columnist IMO, given her tenure and reputation in the WCBB community - but for the first time ever, I think she's way off in how she covered and responded to the UNC/Banghart hire.

Cunningham swiftly making this hire shows decisiveness and a clear indication they want their women's basketball program among the elite in the nation.

Now we have to see how that plays out...


readyAIMfire53



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PostPosted: 05/18/19 9:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Having been unavailable when all this transpired, I chose to read through this discussion before reading the article. The only thing that is crystal clear is that many did not read the article - this includes the one person who admitted he did not read the article and went off in his usual half cocked way anyway.

Referring to Mechelle Voepel as a "Buddy" of Charlotte Smith demonstrates a complete and utter lack of knowledge about Mechelle. As the top womens basketball journalist, Mechelle would not be a "buddy" of any coach. Mechelle is friends with many fans of the game - especially those she can "talk shop" with intelligently throughout the country. To be 100% clear, I am not one of those fans, but I do know a handful of fans who talk to her regularly and sit down with her whenever they happen to be in the same town.

It was clear to many of us that Banghart might be a perfect fit for the Duke job whenever it becomes available due to the two schools (Duke and Princeton) attracting similar academically oriented students and both being private schools with a much smaller student population than any of the great public schools. Hiring Banghart for the UNC job was head scratching at best - and hiring her so quickly was dumbfounding. Personally, I saw a search lasting at least two months with several in person interviews taking place and Charlotte Smith eventually being named as being the best fit and best person to come in - especially given the issues that quickly led to Hatchell's demise.


My biggest question (other than the very relevant questions MV raised) is why in the world would Banghart even consider the UNC job, let alone quickly accept the position after it was rapidly offered. She's walking into a minefield and nobody at UNC is going to help her through it. It's 100% up to her to clean it all up, which is a large task to take on in addition to her primary responsibility of identifying and bringing in top quality players. It is clear her primary qualification for the job was having zero acquaintance with the people and culture at the school so she can create a brand new culture from scratch. The only thing I can think of is that Courtney Banghart is the type of person who sees this as exactly the kind of challenge that excites her - that she relishes the opportunity to not only take the coaching reins, but to create a new culture at what has historically been one of the top public universities in the country.


So my thinking is that when Bubba discovered she wanted to walk into this mess, he pulled the trigger faster than he could say "you're hired." Then he could return to focusing on the sports programs he really cares about and not be forced to devote even one more millisecond to the program that was the scapegoat for the academic scandal that erupted in the athletic department under his "watch."



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 05/18/19 2:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One issue for Banghart is that you can't fundamentally alter the culture and character of the program if the culture and character of the school, dedicated as it is to exploiting athletes at the price of lots of wins, is turned 180 degrees from where you want to be.

The obvious academic issues aside, the simple fact that UNC fired Hatchell, the much less guilty party, instead of Roy Williams tells you pretty much all you need to know about the character and integrity of the UNC administration.



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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 05/18/19 2:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Banghart is a very, very bright woman. I wouldn't be surprised if she navigates UNC's minefields with complete aplomb.


Davis4632



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PostPosted: 05/18/19 4:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

readyAIMfire53 wrote:
Having been unavailable when all this transpired, I chose to read through this discussion before reading the article. The only thing that is crystal clear is that many did not read the article - this includes the one person who admitted he did not read the article and went off in his usual half cocked way anyway.

Referring to Mechelle Voepel as a "Buddy" of Charlotte Smith demonstrates a complete and utter lack of knowledge about Mechelle. As the top womens basketball journalist, Mechelle would not be a "buddy" of any coach. Mechelle is friends with many fans of the game - especially those she can "talk shop" with intelligently throughout the country. To be 100% clear, I am not one of those fans, but I do know a handful of fans who talk to her regularly and sit down with her whenever they happen to be in the same town.

It was clear to many of us that Banghart might be a perfect fit for the Duke job whenever it becomes available due to the two schools (Duke and Princeton) attracting similar academically oriented students and both being private schools with a much smaller student population than any of the great public schools. Hiring Banghart for the UNC job was head scratching at best - and hiring her so quickly was dumbfounding. Personally, I saw a search lasting at least two months with several in person interviews taking place and Charlotte Smith eventually being named as being the best fit and best person to come in - especially given the issues that quickly led to Hatchell's demise.


My biggest question (other than the very relevant questions MV raised) is why in the world would Banghart even consider the UNC job, let alone quickly accept the position after it was rapidly offered. She's walking into a minefield and nobody at UNC is going to help her through it. It's 100% up to her to clean it all up, which is a large task to take on in addition to her primary responsibility of identifying and bringing in top quality players. It is clear her primary qualification for the job was having zero acquaintance with the people and culture at the school so she can create a brand new culture from scratch. The only thing I can think of is that Courtney Banghart is the type of person who sees this as exactly the kind of challenge that excites her - that she relishes the opportunity to not only take the coaching reins, but to create a new culture at what has historically been one of the top public universities in the country.


So my thinking is that when Bubba discovered she wanted to walk into this mess, he pulled the trigger faster than he could say "you're hired." Then he could return to focusing on the sports programs he really cares about and not be forced to devote even one more millisecond to the program that was the scapegoat for the academic scandal that erupted in the athletic department under his "watch."



I see you Duke fans really have UNC's best interest at hand. Has Vernon Carey's family moved into Zion's former mansion up in Durham? You really thought that UNC was going to have a two month's worth of dog and pony shows of interviews just to hire Charlotte Smith when they could've hired her in the same amount time the they hired Courtney Banghart? Hire a coach in the middle of June when it could've been done it half of the time or less and miss out of all scouting the spring ball tournaments and recruiting visits? Yeah right. Why did UNC hire Mack Brown so quickly? Was he the first person they contacted or was there a mutual interest? ? Why did it leak out the Tennessee's job was Kellie's to lose 3 or 4 days after Holly fired?

I READ ALL OF MV's article. She has advocated for Charlotte Smith for P5 coaching jobs in the past and she did it for the UNC job. She picked apart Banghart's resume of being in the Ivy League and being in a mid major while advocating for Smith not mentioning the flaws in Smith's resume. I wonder why she didn't make a list of rising stars in WBB made up of P5 coaches, assistant coaches at schools like Notre Dame, Louisville, Baylor, UConn, and Stanford, and other mid major coaches for the UNC job. I know that would've have ruffle some feathers of the blue bloods by advocating some of their trusted ACs that should be coaching their own teams by now. Like I said before, this more about CB not paying her dues by skipping a couple of levels up the P5 tree.

Quote:
The obvious academic issues aside, the simple fact that UNC fired Hatchell, the much less guilty party, instead of Roy Williams tells you pretty much all you need to know about the character and integrity of the UNC administration.


Academic issues aside, do you know of any accusations or any proof that Roy Williams have forced or misled his players to play while injured or has been accused of being racist or saying things that could've been perceived as racist?


Howee



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PostPosted: 05/18/19 8:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
One issue for Banghart is that you can't fundamentally alter the culture and character of the program if the culture and character of the school....


This angle reminds me a bit of Gail Goestenkors' transition to Texas, re: the cultural/character differential. EVERY case is unique, but her inability to rally Texas to success after HIGH success at Duke is something Ms. Banghart may wanna study, to identify any possible pitfalls she might wanna avoid. Most certainly, Gail ran headfirst into a "cultural" differential she admittedly could not overcome.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 05/19/19 8:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't think Williams was racist at all, and Hatchell, I believe, was just as racist recently as she had been all along.

I will concede I pushed that a little too far, as Hatchell was officially fired for those comments, not for the academic scandal. But both should have been fired, along with the AD, for the fake classes scam -- or at least admitted wrongdoing.



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PRballer



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PostPosted: 05/20/19 11:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
ClayK wrote:
One issue for Banghart is that you can't fundamentally alter the culture and character of the program if the culture and character of the school....


This angle reminds me a bit of Gail Goestenkors' transition to Texas, re: the cultural/character differential. EVERY case is unique, but her inability to rally Texas to success after HIGH success at Duke is something Ms. Banghart may wanna study, to identify any possible pitfalls she might wanna avoid. Most certainly, Gail ran headfirst into a "cultural" differential she admittedly could not overcome.


A bit of apples to oranges and I struggle to find the correlation between the Banghart situation coming into Chapel Hill and this. The Gail situation in Austin, now in hindsight, was incredibly complicated. One, you were already dealing with the changing of the guard for the traditional Texas powers - UT/Conradt and Texas Tech/Sharp as the "old guard" were in the twilight of their careers by then and frankly their programs weren't in top shape, and Baylor and A&M were quickly gaining ground and Baylor had already won the unexpected national championship with the unheralded recruits - or the ground had been made up by 2005. Mulkey and Blair already had a leg up in recruiting/AAU circles in the state by the time Gail arrived in Austin and it was proving much to overcome - the story has always been "Gail failed to win over thee AAU and high school coaches" but I suspect there were other factors at play, i.e. negative recruiting. Allegedly a disgruntled former coach and Lady Longhorn great also "poisoned the well" but not sure how much influence she actually exerted over AAU folks and the recruits themselves.

And then there is the reported/rumored micromanagement by Chris Plonsky - granted it was all the women's athletic department but the women's bball team and Gail perhaps experienced it to the worst degree given the financial backing.

(No wonder Gail experienced major burnout!)

Overall, North Carolina still has an incredible athletic tradition that can't be ignored. It's a brand name that IMO hasn't taken that big of a hit with the academic scandal. Princeton, on a different level, is a brand name for Ivy League athletics and academics. Banghart should earn the respect of her peers and sounds like has the backing of Bubba to be successful. The big question is how does she recruit against the biggies in the ACC and SEC territory- Maryland, Duke, Notre Dame, South Carolina, etc. That's the unproven piece but she has experience recruiting nationally and again, Carolina is a brand name, nationally recognized program. It's always had the potential to be a perennial power in the sport so some scrutiny of course is justified.

We can't prognosticate on how successful she will be, but this is a good hire for Carolina at the time of this announcement - X's and O's and leadership qualities - and I don't think the type of criticism Bubba received on "the process" is justified. (Whoever thinks it's a 2-month coaching search process given an April 19 resignation is out of their minds).


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 05/20/19 1:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FYI, Banghart did a lengthy interview with Anson Dorrance for her Master's presentation on sports leadership. She may have more insight into the UNC culture than one would assume.


Howee



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PostPosted: 05/20/19 7:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PRballer wrote:
....you were already dealing with the changing of the guard for the traditional Texas powers - UT/Conradt and Texas Tech/Sharp as the "old guard" were in the twilight of their careers by then and frankly their programs weren't in top shape


Actually, that sounds a LOT like UNC/Hatchell, no? Razz

PRballer wrote:
We can't prognosticate on how successful she will be, but this is a good hire for Carolina at the time of this announcement.


I don't disagree at all, actually. And I didn't mean to imply GG/Banghart are facing exactly the same scenarios, but....there MAY be a few parallels. I personally think Courtney has a FAR better shot at success at UNC than Gail could have hoped for at TX.



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linkster



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PostPosted: 05/21/19 3:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:


I don't disagree at all, actually. And I didn't mean to imply GG/Banghart are facing exactly the same scenarios, but....there MAY be a few parallels. I personally think Courtney has a FAR better shot at success at UNC than Gail could have hoped for at TX.


At least she is staying in the US. GG had to deal with the fact that to Texans she was a 'ferriner'.


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