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justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 05/29/19 5:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yeah, it's terrible.

I actually created a damn Twitter account for the first time ever to try and get some media to talk about it. Basically they all say the league is not responding. My question is why wait for a response, write on the perception and on the message the league/team is sending by allowing her to play. I get the frustrations of being stonewalled, but write the story you can and then send it to them before publication to allow them a respose.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 05/29/19 5:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Totally with both of you, ClayK and justintyme.


Richyyy



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PostPosted: 05/29/19 6:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Yeah, it's terrible.

I actually created a damn Twitter account for the first time ever to try and get some media to talk about it. Basically they all say the league is not responding. My question is why wait for a response, write on the perception and on the message the league/team is sending by allowing her to play. I get the frustrations of being stonewalled, but write the story you can and then send it to them before publication to allow them a respose.

Yeah, not being given any meaningful answers from the League is a complete non-reason to delay writing a story. That's an idiotic excuse.

But I have to admit that part of my reflexive response to this stuff is that we have a justice system (well I say 'we', but it applies in both the US and the UK) based on 'innocent until proven guilty'. So it does sometimes seem a little unfair that people are suspended purely after an arrest, when the system says that they are at that point innocent. And suspending people for arrests does to some extent offer an incentive to a crazy ex to make something up, because they know they can get the player in significant trouble if they can fabricate something well enough to get them arrested - not necessarily convicted.

Having said all that, I agree that the lack of attention and action on Williams's case is troubling, especially considering the current climate, and the greater efforts other leagues have made in these areas in recent years. Once this story broke, I thought LA would move on. Their problem might be that the contract was already signed (just not announced) so there might've been no way for them to get out of it without the League stepping up and suspending her. Hey, there's something a decent investigative journalist might be able to find out if they tried hard enough.

On a somewhat separate note, as I've mentioned in the past, there are rules and league bylaws that aren't in the CBA. They're in some mystical pamphlet somewhere that the likes of us don't have access to. So maybe there are extra rules somewhere. But in the CBA, a search for 'crim' (so it would highlight 'crime' or 'criminal' etc.) only finds 4 hits. Two are about discrimination. The other two refer to drink and drugs in the anti-drug program section. That's it. Searching for the word 'arrest' finds zero hits. Wonder if that might change in the next one...



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 05/29/19 7:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
But I have to admit that part of my reflexive response to this stuff is that we have a justice system (well I say 'we', but it applies in both the US and the UK) based on 'innocent until proven guilty'. So it does sometimes seem a little unfair that people are suspended purely after an arrest, when the system says that they are at that point innocent. And suspending people for arrests does to some extent offer an incentive to a crazy ex to make something up, because they know they can get the player in significant trouble if they can fabricate something well enough to get them arrested - not necessarily convicted.


The standard of "innocent until proven guilty" is a standard of criminal law. A standard that I believe we should defend and protect... for criminal law. But that doesn't mean that institutions with no power to imprison anyone should adhere to the same standard. In this case and many others, I believe it's fine for groups, organizations, and corporations to suspend or fire someone even when they haven't been found guilty of any crime.


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 05/30/19 1:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
So Odubel Herrera of the Philadelphia Phillies is charged with domestic abuse and is immediately suspended.

The more I think about this, the angrier I get -- and I usually don't get that upset over such things. But how can Penny Toler, or any female, or any adult who cares about domestic violence, especially directed against women, think that it's OK to have Riquna Williams working for your organization?

Maybe it's because there's no commissioner, or maybe it's because no one cares that much, but the fact that Major League Baseball will immediately suspend a man for actions less objectionable than what Williams did (no gun involved), and the WNBA stands idly by, is really disgusting.

But again, no one seems to care ...


And what about the fans? Do you think that if Sparks fans collectively boycotted their games and held a protest on the sidewalk with a few choice signs condemning domestic violence that it wouldn't compel both the team's management and the league to take prompt action? I find it hard to criticize the media for ignoring the situation if the fans are passively accepting Williams playing as well.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 05/30/19 6:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
And what about the fans? Do you think that if Sparks fans collectively boycotted their games and held a protest on the sidewalk with a few choice signs condemning domestic violence that it wouldn't compel both the team's management and the league to take prompt action? I find it hard to criticize the media for ignoring the situation if the fans are passively accepting Williams playing as well.


Valid point. James Dolan (Hideous Lord Jimmy) hired Isiah Thomas as president of the New York Liberty. Thomas had sexually harassed Anucha Browne, an executive of Madison Square Garden, in the very same corporate offices where he'd once again be working. A Manhattan jury had ruled in favor of Browne in her lawsuit and had awarded her millions of dollars in damages.

Did Liberty fans care? There was a small protest outside Madison Square Garden before the team's first game with Thomas as president. I was part of that protest. To my knowledge, that was it.

Thomas was at many home games, perhaps all of them. I saw many fans fawn all over him when they got the chance. One night I saw a woman excitedly introduce two young women (teenagers) to Thomas. I'd guess it was her daughter and her daughter's friend. Made me sick.

But I don't find it difficult to criticize the Dolans of our world and the media that cater to them. I'd like them to be better than the fans, even when I know it's a vain hope.


NYSports56



Joined: 03 Jul 2018
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PostPosted: 05/30/19 7:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
So Odubel Herrera of the Philadelphia Phillies is charged with domestic abuse and is immediately suspended.

The more I think about this, the angrier I get -- and I usually don't get that upset over such things. But how can Penny Toler, or any female, or any adult who cares about domestic violence, especially directed against women, think that it's OK to have Riquna Williams working for your organization?

Maybe it's because there's no commissioner, or maybe it's because no one cares that much, but the fact that Major League Baseball will immediately suspend a man for actions less objectionable than what Williams did (no gun involved), and the WNBA stands idly by, is really disgusting.

But again, no one seems to care ...


I care. This is very disturbing, as was the Hope Solo story in USA Women's Soccer. If anything, the women's sports should be leading the way on this issue, not the men!

The message from US Soccer and the WNBA evidently is that domestic violence really isn't such a big issue, and that maybe the men's leagues are overreacting to something that women themselves don't consider a problem. From a sociological standpoint, this is an epic fail by US Women's sports.


pilight



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PostPosted: 05/30/19 7:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Of course all the charges against Solo were eventually dismissed



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Shades



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PostPosted: 05/30/19 8:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
So Odubel Herrera of the Philadelphia Phillies is charged with domestic abuse and is immediately suspended.

The more I think about this, the angrier I get -- and I usually don't get that upset over such things. But how can Penny Toler, or any female, or any adult who cares about domestic violence, especially directed against women, think that it's OK to have Riquna Williams working for your organization?

Maybe it's because there's no commissioner, or maybe it's because no one cares that much, but the fact that Major League Baseball will immediately suspend a man for actions less objectionable than what Williams did (no gun involved), and the WNBA stands idly by, is really disgusting.

But again, no one seems to care ...


Do you care enough to write a story on it? Nope.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 05/30/19 9:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
ClayK wrote:
So Odubel Herrera of the Philadelphia Phillies is charged with domestic abuse and is immediately suspended.

The more I think about this, the angrier I get -- and I usually don't get that upset over such things. But how can Penny Toler, or any female, or any adult who cares about domestic violence, especially directed against women, think that it's OK to have Riquna Williams working for your organization?

Maybe it's because there's no commissioner, or maybe it's because no one cares that much, but the fact that Major League Baseball will immediately suspend a man for actions less objectionable than what Williams did (no gun involved), and the WNBA stands idly by, is really disgusting.

But again, no one seems to care ...



Do you care enough to write a story on it? Nope.


Sadly, I don't have a forum to write a story on it. The various outlets I write for don't cover the WNBA or these kinds of issues. Back in the day, when I was a newspaper columnist, I would have been all over it.

Don't get the hostility, Shades. You called me out on Sabrina not liking school, and you were wrong, and you called me out here, incorrectly. What's the point?



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Davis4632



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PostPosted: 05/30/19 1:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Shades wrote:
ClayK wrote:
So Odubel Herrera of the Philadelphia Phillies is charged with domestic abuse and is immediately suspended.

The more I think about this, the angrier I get -- and I usually don't get that upset over such things. But how can Penny Toler, or any female, or any adult who cares about domestic violence, especially directed against women, think that it's OK to have Riquna Williams working for your organization?

Maybe it's because there's no commissioner, or maybe it's because no one cares that much, but the fact that Major League Baseball will immediately suspend a man for actions less objectionable than what Williams did (no gun involved), and the WNBA stands idly by, is really disgusting.

But again, no one seems to care ...





Do you care enough to write a story on it? Nope.


Sadly, I don't have a forum to write a story on it. The various outlets I write for don't cover the WNBA or these kinds of issues. Back in the day, when I was a newspaper columnist, I would have been all over it.

Don't get the hostility, Shades. You called me out on Sabrina not liking school, and you were wrong, and you called me out here, incorrectly. What's the point?


Was Shades wrong about Ionescu though? You were convinced that she didn't like school enough to the point that she was going to enter the WNBA draft. Unless you're saying she hates school but decided to stay anyway.


myrtle



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PostPosted: 05/30/19 1:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm old fashioned but still believe in the innocent until proved guilty thing. We have the story of the ex and her family. Has Williams admitted guilt? If she gets sentenced then the outrage makes more sense.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 05/30/19 3:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Davis4632 wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Shades wrote:
ClayK wrote:
So Odubel Herrera of the Philadelphia Phillies is charged with domestic abuse and is immediately suspended.

The more I think about this, the angrier I get -- and I usually don't get that upset over such things. But how can Penny Toler, or any female, or any adult who cares about domestic violence, especially directed against women, think that it's OK to have Riquna Williams working for your organization?

Maybe it's because there's no commissioner, or maybe it's because no one cares that much, but the fact that Major League Baseball will immediately suspend a man for actions less objectionable than what Williams did (no gun involved), and the WNBA stands idly by, is really disgusting.

But again, no one seems to care ...





Do you care enough to write a story on it? Nope.


Sadly, I don't have a forum to write a story on it. The various outlets I write for don't cover the WNBA or these kinds of issues. Back in the day, when I was a newspaper columnist, I would have been all over it.

Don't get the hostility, Shades. You called me out on Sabrina not liking school, and you were wrong, and you called me out here, incorrectly. What's the point?


Was Shades wrong about Ionescu though? You were convinced that she didn't like school enough to the point that she was going to enter the WNBA draft. Unless you're saying she hates school but decided to stay anyway.


Sabrina' direct quote to me was that she didn't like school that much. I think the primary factor in her decision to stay -- but I have not talked to her directly about this -- was the opportunity to play 3x3 in the 2020 Olympics. If she had gone to the WNBA, she wouldn't have qualified for the 2020 Olympics, and getting to the Olympics is not only a special experience, it increases the amount of money in shoe contracts.



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justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 05/30/19 3:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
I'm old fashioned but still believe in the innocent until proved guilty thing. We have the story of the ex and her family. Has Williams admitted guilt? If she gets sentenced then the outrage makes more sense.

Okay, let's put this all in perspective about what we are talking about here.

I believe strongly in due process. It is a foundational principle of both our criminal justice system, and is also a basic concept of a just society. And the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" is a major part of due process.

So that being said, it is essential that the government never strip someone of their liberty without due process. In this case, that means that Williams should hold the presumption of innocence and not be imprisoned unless the state is able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury of her peers that she committed the crimes of which she has been accused.

That standard is intentionally difficult to meet because the penalty (imprisonment, loss of liberty, criminal conviction, etc) is so severe.

Now if the penalty were less severe, say in civil court, then the standard of proof is much less. In that case "due process" is based upon the Preponderance of the Evidence where the jury only has to be convinced that the person is 51% likely to have done it.

The reason I bring this up, is that the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" does not mean that businesses or society as a whole are hamstrung until the entire legal process plays out. That just because there has been no conviction yet that there can be absolutely no consequences or action taken at all. Rather, what it means is that we should weigh what the accusations are and what we are proposing as consequences. It is imperative that these are in balance and reasonable.

So what is reasonable here? What keeps this balance? Here we have a individual who has been arrested and charged (which means, at least at this point, the DA is still pursuing charges, which in legal speak means the prosecutor believes the evidence has a legitimate chance at conviction). We also have a very serious charge of aggravated assault with a domestic element, and the presence of a firearm.

So these are very, very serious charges. So the question becomes is a temporary suspension until the legal process plays out an "unreasonable" consequence for someone facing these sorts of accusations? I see no reason to think it so.

And if we take a hard core "innocent until proven guilty" stance, that leaves little wiggle room for context. Like should we have let Aaron Hernandez play while he was on trial for murder? I mean, he was technically still innocent, right? Or do we just draw the line at murder? How about Jerry Sandusky? He could still coach, right? No? But he was still innocent until convicted. Extreme examples, obviously, but the point is we are constantly adjusting "innocent until proven guilty" when it comes to things outside of criminal conviction to make it fit with what we need for a just and fair society.



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NYSports56



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PostPosted: 05/30/19 4:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Of course all the charges against Solo were eventually dismissed


I actually didn't know this, but I don't think there were never any charges brought up against Ray Rice either. His career was ended by his incident.


lethalweapon3



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PostPosted: 05/30/19 5:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Might Billie Jean and Ilana (assuming the ownership bid went through by now... maybe a stretch...) be influential in weighing in on this matter?

~lw3


Shades



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PostPosted: 06/08/19 12:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

https://theathletic.com/1016376/2019/06/07/as-the-wnba-investigates-assault-charges-against-riquna-williams-she-remains-with-the-sparks/

Quote:
The legal process in Williams’ case could be lengthy.

On Thursday morning, Williams’ lawyer waived the right to a speedy trial and requested a jury trial. The next proceeding is scheduled for July 3, which Williams is not required to attend, Paige confirmed.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 06/08/19 1:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Existential Question Of The Day:

If domestic violence happens in a league that no one (relatively) watches, does it make a sound?



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sportsfan48



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PostPosted: 06/08/19 1:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Existential Question Of The Day:

If domestic violence happens in a league that no one (relatively) watches, does it make a sound?


I get what you are saying and understand the frustration. The league did react in the Griner/Johnson case. What is the difference here?


justintyme



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PostPosted: 06/08/19 1:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

sportsfan48 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Existential Question Of The Day:

If domestic violence happens in a league that no one (relatively) watches, does it make a sound?


I get what you are saying and understand the frustration. The league did react in the Griner/Johnson case. What is the difference here?

No leadership atm is the big one, and the fact that they seemed to never put anything formal into place after that incident. So they seem to be treading water right now, likely hoping the new commish will decide something when she takes over. Which is fairly gutless.

The Sparks on the other hand....there is simply no excuse at all for them. Total and complete disgrace.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 06/08/19 2:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Also: my question was mostly more about our collective response to this issue as a society.

In this #MeToo age, when we are taking our professional sports teams to task for their domestic violence policies and there is a major focus on domestic violence awareness, we seem very selective about which incidents we want to become outraged over. Yes, there are many fewer fans of the WNBA, but there are enough of us that we should be able to get this to have some traction if it is important enough of an issue for us.

So the situation causes me to wonder if the loud voices in the other situations are because people truly care about domestic violence, or is it:
1) people wanting to give a black eye to the major sports leagues, or
2) people patronizing women by reducing a complex and devastating issue to "men shouldn't hit women".

Either way, this issue hits me close to home and is one that I fight relentlessly for, and as a passionate WNBA fan this, combined with the league's (lack of a) response, has me extremely conflicted.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 06/08/19 2:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It could just be a more egregious version of the Sparks not being subject to the same rules as everyone else



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PostPosted: 06/08/19 2:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not sure why the aggravated assault charge is being called "domestic violence" or what that characterization would add even if it were true, which is unlikely. The fact that Williams was also charged with burglary is definitive evidence that Williams had no domestic right to the premises. (Classic burglary is the breaking and entering into a home that you have no right to enter, at night, with the intent to commit any crime therein.)

Aggravated assault is the mundane legal lingo charge for any sort of physical fight or fisticuffs, which fights have been commonplace in human history all over the world since the beginning of time.

Williams, according to reports, has no criminal record or prior history of violence. People are considered innocent by society's legal system until proven guilty, so why shouldn't they be accorded the same treatment by society's employment system, especially when the charge is a mundane and commonplace one?

Legal proceedings including appeals can take years to conclude. Should an employer deprive a presumed-innocent employee of her livelihood for all this time simply because the the police have charged her with a physical fight in a bar, with a neighbor, with a friend, or with a family member? I think not, unless the crime alleged along with the emplyoyee's history are of such a serious nature that the employee could present a real risk of harm to the workplace. That was the practice in most business organizations that I worked in or advised.

The Sparks have obviously concluded that Williams presents no such risk -- and rationally so, in my opinion.
justintyme



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PostPosted: 06/08/19 3:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Domestic because it was her ex-gf, who she has had an on-and-off relationship with. That is considered intimate partner violence.

And instead of making strawman arguments about bar fights, how about speak specifically about what she is charged with. The offical definition of Aggrevated Assault is: an attempt to cause serious bodily injury to another or to cause serious bodily injury purposely, knowingly or recklessly, with an extreme indifference to the value of human life.

In this case, she is charged with forcing her way into her ex's house, punching her in the head repeatedly, pulling her hair, and then threatening witnesses with a gun. This is not some "commonplace fight" that you try to dismiss it as.

None of the NFL, NBA, NHL, or MLB would let a player suit up while on trial for beating an ex-girlfriend. The fact that you think it is "reasonable" that the WNBA is doing do makes no sense.



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mavcarter



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PostPosted: 06/08/19 3:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
I'm not sure why the aggravated assault charge is being called "domestic violence" or what that characterization would add even if it were true, which is unlikely. The fact that Williams was also charged with burglary is definitive evidence that Williams had no domestic right to the premises. (Classic burglary is the breaking and entering into a home that you have no right to enter, at night, with the intent to commit any crime therein.)

Aggravated assault is the mundane legal lingo charge for any sort of physical fight or fisticuffs, which fights have been commonplace in human history all over the world since the beginning of time.

Williams, according to reports, has no criminal record or prior history of violence. People are considered innocent by society's legal system until proven guilty, so why shouldn't they be accorded the same treatment by society's employment system, especially when the charge is a mundane and commonplace one?

Legal proceedings including appeals can take years to conclude. Should an employer deprive a presumed-innocent employee of her livelihood for all this time simply because the the police have charged her with a physical fight in a bar, with a neighbor, with a friend, or with a family member? I think not, unless the crime alleged along with the emplyoyee's history are of such a serious nature that the employee could present a real risk of harm to the workplace. That was the practice in most business organizations that I worked in or advised.

The Sparks have obviously concluded that Williams presents no such risk -- and rationally so, in my opinion.


Agreed.



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