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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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Location: Northfield, MN
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 Posted: 07/16/19 5:09 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| mavcarter wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| 10 game suspension. |
Good, now for the people that felt this should’ve came from the Sparks or earlier in the season. Do you agree with the length of the suspension? Did it come too late? |
The length is not consistent with prior DV suspensions, which makes me think it's a little long. Maybe Williams will appeal to the commissioner to have it shortened.
Is it too late? Yeah, by about a week. Assuming the league wanted to suspend her at the easiest point in the Sparks schedule, the ideal time would have been two or three games ago. |
The other DV cases were misdemeanors. She is charged with 2 felonies. Would be hard to win an argument that she should be punished similarly.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 07/16/19 5:18 pm ::: |
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| Still, you gotta shake your head at the Sparks knowing this was coming. Shouldn't have re-signed her.
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lethalweapon3
Joined: 17 May 2018
Posts: 333
Location: ATL ITP, GA
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| Posted: 07/16/19 5:19 pm ::: |
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I'm leaning toward the view that any PR damage inflicted on the league by the decision to re-sign Williams, and to play her prior to the league completing its investigation, ought to cost Sparks Inc a pretty, ummm, Penny.
Also, that if it is not clear that investigations of possible personal conduct policy violations by players should fall under the exclusive purview of the larger league, and not left to the devices and inclinations of member teams, then that should be made crystal-clear in the forthcoming CBA.
~lw3
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 07/16/19 5:23 pm ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| Still, you gotta shake your head at the Sparks knowing this was coming. Shouldn't have re-signed her. |
As I said way earlier, I think the Sparks should be penalized for hiring her knowing full well of the charges. They already spent their first round pick in 2020. How about the one in 2021?
Magic Johnson should dismiss Toler, unless he okay’d the signing.
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lethalweapon3
Joined: 17 May 2018
Posts: 333
Location: ATL ITP, GA
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| Posted: 07/16/19 5:34 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| toad455 wrote: |
| Still, you gotta shake your head at the Sparks knowing this was coming. Shouldn't have re-signed her. |
As I said way earlier, I think the Sparks should be penalized for hiring her knowing full well of the charges. They already spent their first round pick in 2020. How about the one in 2021?
Magic Johnson should dismiss Toler, unless he okay’d the signing. |
Given how Magic's Lakers were down with KCP during his DUI-related detention, I can't imagine Earvin wasn't all over this decision from the outset.
https://abc7.com/sports/lakers-20-the-failed-reboot-of-the-nbas-crown-jewel/5319783/
| Quote: |
In that same season, Caldwell-Pope was allowed to practice and play with the team while serving a 25-day jail sentence for violating the terms of his probation stemming from a DUI charge -- a decision that, multiple team staffers said, caused unrest in the franchise. Caldwell-Pope was allowed to leave the Seal Beach Police Department Detention Center to attend practice and Lakers games in California as part of a work-release program, but he wasn't allowed to travel outside the state, resulting in him missing one game in Cleveland, one in Minneapolis and two in Houston. In all, Caldwell-Pope missed four games while serving his jail sentence but played in nine, starting each one.
"Anybody [else] would have put him on personal leave or suspended him," one coaching staff member said.
"I had a major problem with that," a Lakers front-office executive said.
When asked why Caldwell-Pope played during this time, a Lakers spokesperson said they were simply following the judge's work-release ruling. Staffers within the organization and sources close to the team say they believe it was because the Lakers were trying to curry favor with Klutch in their efforts to sign James the following summer in free agency. |
~lw3
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 07/16/19 6:57 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| The length is not consistent with prior DV suspensions, which makes me think it's a little long. Maybe Williams will appeal to the commissioner to have it shortened. |
Griner and Glory Johnson were each suspended 7 games. No firearms were involved.
In this case, a firearm was involved, which was an aggravating factor.
As an aside, ESPN has a video with the analysis from Sports Illustrated Legal Analyst Michael McAnn (curious why ESPN did not have its own legal analyst available):
<embed><iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.espn.com/core/video/iframe?id=27203911&endcard=false" allowfullscreen frameborder="0"></iframe></embed>
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=27203911
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 07/16/19 7:20 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
ESPN has a video with the analysis from Sports Illustrated Legal Analyst Michael McAnn (curious why ESPN did not have its own legal analyst available):
<embed><iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.espn.com/core/video/iframe?id=27203911&endcard=false" allowfullscreen frameborder="0"></iframe></embed>
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=27203911 |
Professor McAnn is a well-known sports lawyer and sports law journalist, and hence has far more specialist credentials than the typical generic TV legal pundit.
As McAnn points out (as I have), the WNBA has no domestic violence policy in or accompanying its CBA whereas the NBA does. So do the NFL and MLB. That's a big, big difference regarding what punishments a sports team/league can levy against a player -- as I've also pointed out in various threads. |
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 07/16/19 7:51 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Professor McAnn is a well-known sports lawyer and sports law journalist, and hence has far more specialist credentials than the typical generic TV legal pundit. |
ESPN also has its own legal analysts -- Roger Cossack, Ryan Smith, etc. They are brought on to discuss male professional athletes/players and their respective run-ins with the law (Ezekiel Elliott comes to mind).
I think he might have been brought on because of familiarity with the WNBA CBA, as opposed to ESPN's usual legal analysts.
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| As McAnn points out (as I have), the WNBA has no domestic violence policy in or accompanying its CBA whereas the NBA does. So do the NFL and MLB. That's a big, big difference regarding what punishments a sports team/league can levy against a player -- as I've also pointed out in various threads. |
The disciplinary process for off-court conduct, as well as the various appellate mechanisms, have to be a mandatory subject of bargaining for the union for the next CBA.
As we have seen from Elliott, Deflategate, etc., the disciplinary process and the appeals of said discipline are extensive matters in male professional sports.
The league and the PA need the requisite policies to address conduct, but also the procedural mechanisms in place for challenging disciplinary decisions.
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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
Posts: 1095
Location: NorCal
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| Posted: 07/17/19 12:08 am ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Professor McAnn is a well-known sports lawyer and sports law journalist, and hence has far more specialist credentials than the typical generic TV legal pundit.
As McAnn points out (as I have), the WNBA has no domestic violence policy in or accompanying its CBA whereas the NBA does. So do the NFL and MLB. That's a big, big difference regarding what punishments a sports team/league can levy against a player -- as I've also pointed out in various threads. |
The NFL's innitiatial arbitray decisions with each individual case created a real legal problem for them, which the eventually had to address. This is going to open up a real can of worms both in this case and the new collective barganing agreement to come.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
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| Posted: 07/17/19 1:28 am ::: |
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Riquna Williams got suspended for 29.4% of her team’s season. Aroldis Chapman got suspended for 18.5% of his and he admitted to firing multiple gunshots in his garage as part of a domestic dispute. Ray Rice got two games until the video came out and the NFL was forced to act once sponsors threatened to pull out of games. Let’s not pretend the men’s leagues are something they aren’t either. Part of men’s league’s policies today is rooted in nearly complete ignorance of domestic abuse prior.
There are people here who wanted a lengthy suspension. You got one that holds its weight when compared to men’s leagues. In a league with a new commissioner and no set domestic violence policy and no conviction as of yet for Riquna Williams. I know for some it’s not lengthy or timely enough. I get it. If she’s guilty of what’s been described, I think a full season suspension is warranted. But man, it’s Florida. A high conviction state in general with a very high conviction rate of African Americans. I’m curious how this is going to play out. If, and it’s a big if, she’s found not guilty, she’s still already been tried in the court of public opinion and will have lost 30 percent of her season without justification.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 07/17/19 10:50 am ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| If, and it’s a big if, she’s found not guilty, she’s still already been tried in the court of public opinion and will have lost 30 percent of her season without justification. |
Actually, there are key differences between an administrative suspension and a criminal conviction.
Criminal convictions have a "beyond a reasonable doubt standard." Criminal cases are generally pursued when the prosecution believes there is a reasonable likelihood of conviction. More often than not, criminal cases involve plea bargains where the accused plea to lesser charges (or even charges dismissed following a probation/monitoring period).
But whether the individual engaged in the conduct -- irrespective of whether it results in a criminal conviction -- is certainly enough for an employer to take (administrative, which is civil and non-criminal) action, if the individual's behavior violates company policy.
Simply because the person is not criminally convicted does not mean that she is "innocent" or the conduct did not happen at all; it simply means that there is no criminal determination of guilt in violation of the state statute from the tribunal.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
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| Posted: 07/17/19 10:56 am ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| If, and it’s a big if, she’s found not guilty, she’s still already been tried in the court of public opinion and will have lost 30 percent of her season without justification. |
Actually, there are key differences between an administrative suspension and a criminal conviction.
Criminal convictions have a "beyond a reasonable doubt standard." Criminal cases are generally pursued when the prosecution believes there is a reasonable likelihood of conviction. More often than not, criminal cases involve plea bargains where the accused plea to lesser charges (or even charges dismissed following a probation/monitoring period).
But whether the individual engaged in the conduct -- irrespective of whether it results in a criminal conviction -- is certainly enough for an employer to take (administrative, which is civil and non-criminal) action, if the individual's behavior violates company policy.
Simply because the person is not criminally convicted does not mean that she is "innocent" or the conduct did not happen at all; it simply means that there is no criminal determination of guilt in violation of the state statute from the tribunal. |
I don’t disagree. I’m no expert in legal matters and I’m sure you know way more than me. But my point is that Florida’s high conviction rate, particularly of African Americans, suggests that a not guilty finding is that much more likely to mean that the conduct charged is less likely to have happened. Taking my last sentence from the original post out, I think the 10-game suspension measures up well with other leagues and should satisfy people who were in favor of it.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 14109
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| Posted: 07/17/19 10:54 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| toad455 wrote: |
| Still, you gotta shake your head at the Sparks knowing this was coming. Shouldn't have re-signed her. |
As I said way earlier, I think the Sparks should be penalized for hiring her knowing full well of the charges. They already spent their first round pick in 2020. How about the one in 2021?
Magic Johnson should dismiss Toler, unless he okay’d the signing. |
Doesn't the WNBA have to approve signings, so why should the league punish the team for something they approved? Should the NBA also penalize the WNBA for allowing the signing knowing full well of the charges?
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
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| Posted: 07/18/19 9:22 am ::: |
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| The WNBA players association is grieving the suspension.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
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| Posted: 07/18/19 9:53 am ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| The WNBA players association is grieving the suspension. |
This week's Around the Rim talked about that. All three of them had a different take on the union doing that, and it was a great discussion that considered it from different angles. LaChina felt they shouldn't have since it likely doesn't represent how the players feel enmasse about it.
Dev, having been on the board of the union in the past noted that they don't typically ask the players as a whole what they want, so the player's feelings likely didn't matter to them.
And Terrika felt that the union just had to do it no matter, since Williams was a player so they should represent her regardless of the feelings of other members.
It was a great discussion--not to mention them discussing all the other WNBA happenings. Fans who want more WNBA content really should check it out weekly if they haven't been:
http://m.espn.com/general/play?id=27211494
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 07/18/19 2:49 pm ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| The WNBA players association is grieving the suspension. |
Appalling. Unless the assoc has a rule in place saying they will appeal ALL suspensions, this is just appalling. And if they have such a rule, this should signal that it needs to be changed.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 07/18/19 4:25 pm ::: |
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Winters-Scott pleased with WNBA suspending Williams 10 games
NBC Sports Washington basketball analyst Christy Winters-Scott joins OTL to share her reaction to Riquna Williams' 10-game suspension for a domestic violence incident.
<embed><iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.espn.com/core/video/iframe?id=27209736&endcard=false" allowfullscreen frameborder="0"></iframe></embed>
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=27209736
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Carol Anne
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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Location: Seattle
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| Posted: 07/18/19 4:50 pm ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| The WNBA players association is grieving the suspension. |
..."Women’s National Basketball Players’ Association president Terri Jackson said the league should not have suspended Williams before the criminal case was closed: "We are disappointed with the league’s actions. There is an ongoing criminal proceeding and in fairness to the player, the league could have and should have awaited its completion before taking any action. Riquna has not had a fair opportunity to fully defend herself. We are immediately filing a grievance and will seek the arbitrator’s review."..
https://deadspin.com/the-wnba-players-association-is-contesting-riquna-willi-1836453171
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 07/18/19 5:05 pm ::: |
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| Carol Anne wrote: |
| “Riquna has not had a fair opportunity to fully defend herself." |
She waived her right to a speedy trial, which I’m guessing means she wants to put it off as long as possible. Any statement she made failed to clarify anything on the situation. I think she’s had some opportunity. I’m curious whether Williams contends that the events as told were a complete fabrication or it happened pretty much as told but doesn’t think it’s that big of a deal.
Does she own a gun?
Does it have the capability to hold 18 shells?
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 07/18/19 6:19 pm ::: |
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| Given that we've seen the 2 adult victims and reportedly the child all describe the events similarly under oath, I can't see this all as being a fabrication. I also think that the fact that Williams invaded someone's home and subsequently threatened the homeowner with a gun is frequently getting lost behind the discussions about domestic violence. I still haven't read anything about whether she owned this gun legally or not...if it's legal, there's a paper trail; if not, she can ditch it and claim she never had a gun that night. But maybe the league should have decided to suspend her with pay until the end of the season, since her trial appears unlikely to occur before then. It seems like fitting punishment for the Sparks to have to pay her after they decided to sign her months after this event occurred.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 07/18/19 7:26 pm ::: |
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| That is why I asked the question about the possible length of time before a final verdict -- with delays, changes of venue, etc., and conceivably appeals. I don't know, but I guess it's possible it could take literally years to get a definitive verdict.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 07/18/19 7:50 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| That is why I asked the question about the possible length of time before a final verdict -- with delays, changes of venue, etc., and conceivably appeals. I don't know, but I guess it's possible it could take literally years to get a definitive verdict. |
She won't be able to leave the country to play overseas while she's still facing felony charges.
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stever
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 07/19/19 7:41 am ::: |
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https://www.si.com/wnba/2019/07/18/evaluating-wnba-handling-riquna-williams-suspension-legal-arguments
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| Second, Williams has been charged with serious felonies: burglary with assault or battery, and aggravated assault with a firearm. She faces the possibility of a life sentence if convicted on the first charge. While it’s unlikely that she would receive such a lengthy prison sentence, the fact that she could highlights the gravity of her alleged crimes. These are not simple misdemeanors resolvable by paying a fine and doing community service. Williams faces the prospect of spending years in prison if she’s convicted. |
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 07/19/19 1:19 pm ::: |
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| stever wrote: |
https://www.si.com/wnba/2019/07/18/evaluating-wnba-handling-riquna-williams-suspension-legal-arguments
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| Second, Williams has been charged with serious felonies: burglary with assault or battery, and aggravated assault with a firearm. She faces the possibility of a life sentence if convicted on the first charge. While it’s unlikely that she would receive such a lengthy prison sentence, the fact that she could highlights the gravity of her alleged crimes. These are not simple misdemeanors resolvable by paying a fine and doing community service. Williams faces the prospect of spending years in prison if she’s convicted. |
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Sports Illustrated's Michael McCann presents six legal arguments by the WNBA in the grievance appeal process as well as six legal arguments by Williams and the WNBPA in the process.
Regarding the potential legal arguments for Williams/WNBPA, McCann states:
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Second, we don’t yet know her legal defenses. Williams might convincingly argue that she had a legal right to enter the residence (which, if true, would defeat the burglary charge). She could also maintain that Davis and Wilson were the aggressors and that the gun-brandishing part of the narrative was greatly exaggerated.
The imposition of a WNBA suspension before the legal process arguably plays out therefore presents an uncomfortable risk: if Williams is later exonerated in court, the WNBA will have punished an innocent player. |
This goes back to one of the points that I have made earlier in this thread. A criminal conviction is not the same process as an administrative disciplinary action in the workplace, nor does it have nearly the same burden of proof.
In the criminal context, it is possible that Williams may not be convicted on any or all of the criminal charges. Perhaps witnesses refuse to testify. Maybe there was a procedural defect. Perhaps the government-obtained physical evidence was obtained improperly/illegally/under coercion, thus making any after-acquired evidence "fruit of the poisonous tree" and inadmissible. Or maybe a jury simply finds Williams to be a more credible witness, should the case proceed to trial.
Even if Williams is found to be "not guilty," that does not mean she is "innocent." A "not guilty" criminal verdict simply means that the prosecution did not prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt to the tribunal.
In the administrative discipline process, I have always suggested to clients that investigations have specific categories of terminology for their findings, pertaining to the specific allegations: -- unfounded, exonerated, unresolved, or sustained. This is how I define (generally speaking) those terms.
Unfounded
It is found the reported misconduct (or conduct) or behavior did not occur or did not occur as alleged
Exonerated
The incident occurred, but the conduct or behavior was lawful and proper.
Unresolved
There is insufficient evidence to either prove or disprove the allegation.
– OR –
The inquiry into this allegation is inactivated pending development of further information.
Sustained
The allegation is supported by sufficient evidence to justify a reasonable conclusion the alleged misconduct/inappropriate behavior occurred.
For Williams to be "innocent" (using the word from the article linked above) -- which means the allegations would be unfounded in the administrative context and she could thus avoid any punishment -- she must have an argument akin to: "I was not there (or it was not me). Here is indisputable proof that I was nowhere in the vicinity of the residence where this incident took place on that date/time or at any point relevant to the allegations involved here."
An employer can impose an administrative disciplinary action, irrespective of whether there is a conviction in the criminal context. The issue is whether an employee engaged in the underlying conduct (or there is reasonable evidence to demonstrate that he/she did) and whether that conduct violates the employer's policies or employee handbook provisions.
In other words, a "sustained" allegation in the administrative context can occur before the criminal proceedings have taken place or reached a conclusion, or it can occur even if there is a "not guilty" finding in the criminal proceedings.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 07/19/19 2:52 pm ::: |
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There's a phrase which has been used a lot over the years over here when sportsmen misbehave (it's usually less serious than the Howard/Williams allegations) which is 'bringing the game into disrepute'. It covers anything from swearing at a ref to drunken brawls outside a pub to drink driving (our sportsmen don't seem to get caught beating up their wives and girlfriends as much). And I think the central part of what Cam and others have been getting at is that even if she's eventually found not guilty, or the charges are dropped, or whatever - Williams can still be guilty of acting in a way that 'brought the WNBA into disrepute'.
Now it's complicated by the existence of the collective bargaining agreement and the rules within that about what they're allowed to do - and hopefully they'll work on improving that section in the next one. But yeah, I agree that you don't need the same weight of evidence and proof to levy a basketball suspension as you do to send someone to prison. |
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