| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
 Posted: 05/17/19 12:24 pm ::: |
Reply  |
|
| myrtle wrote: |
around here, most joggers do carry a gun. But if you want to put your faith in pepper spray, go for it. |
It's one of those things where blanket statements in one direction or the other are typically a bad way to go.
Saying "guns are never the right call" or on the other side not even considering other solutions besides guns ignores way too many diverse contextual circumstances that change everything.
If I am jogging in a relatively high population area where a wildlife attack threat is minimal, but yet the presence of my firearm could add additional risk to myself or others, then adding that risk would be silly.
Or if in an area where the wildlife risk is minimized by something like pepper spray, then that would be the wisest choice as it keeps from adding the additional danger inherent in a firearm.
Yet if I am jogging in the Alaskan wilderness (for one obvious example, there are many others), where the risk of running into an aggressive grizzly is a real danger and not just overblown or overhyped fear, having a firearm is the smart and responsible choice.
_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
|
|
Carol Anne
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
Posts: 1739
Location: Seattle
Back to top |
|
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/27/19 12:14 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
How is she even on the court during this?
Could you imagine the uproar if this were the NBA and a team were playing someone who was awaiting a trial on these exact same charges? A player charged with forcing their way into an Ex's house and hitting them in the head while pulling their hair, then threatening witnesses with a gun....
The team, the league...WTF.
Do better.
_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
|
|
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/27/19 12:52 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
And the silence on this issue from the Media sources and activists is troubling.
Where is Katie Nolan, who I have loved for her take-downs of the NFL and their domestic violence issues in the past. Why hasn't Michelle Voepel taken the league to task on this issue. Where is the push back? Where is the accountability? It has been radio silent.
And then we get this article. Doug Feinberg is an excellent journalist, who does wonderful things for this sport that we love. I respect him immensely. But I am not a fan of the framing of this article. From the headline on down through the interviews and selected quotations, it is framed as a story of a woman persevering through hardship and refusing to let it get her down. As if these are barriers we should cheer her on through. Like we should want her to persevere through them. It's like she is coming back from injury or something, rather than having to go to court because she was arrested for forcing her way into a house, beating her ex-girlfriend, and then threatening witnesses with a gun.
Could you imagine someone writing a story about Kareem Hunt and how hard it is for him to have to face down the distraction of being investigated and cut from his team for beating women, and his vow to persevere, and have it be the only major story on the subject?
Ugh.
_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
|
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/27/19 1:31 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| I agree with justintyme. Same-sex domestic violence needs to be taken just as seriously as opposite-sex domestic violence. That includes being taken just as seriously by sports officials and sports media.
|
|
WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 12530
Location: Dallas , Texas
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/27/19 2:37 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| The NBA had an entire playing for the lakers while serving jail time. He was released on to play in games then back to the lou afterwards for a while. We should wait til the hearing is over before we make judgements on baybay
_________________
3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
|
|
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/27/19 3:27 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| The NBA had an entire playing for the lakers while serving jail time. He was released on to play in games then back to the lou afterwards for a while. We should wait til the hearing is over before we make judgements on baybay |
When was this? Who was this? And what was the charges?
Times have changed, and just because teams/leagues have made very bad decisions in the past does not mean teams should do it now. There is absolutely no need to "wait" to make judgements as this is someone who has been both arrested and charged. This is not something that the police are just "looking into" or some accusation that has been made. This should be more than enough of a standard for the league take action on and keep her off the court at least until the situation is resolved (and then take their own disciplinary actions based upon their own investigation and the outcome of the legal case).
Even the NFL wouldn't have the gaul to allow a player who has an active domestic assault case pending in court to play while it is proceeding. That player would have been suspended indefinitely already. Hell, they put them on the Commissioner's exempt list during the actual investigation and before charges are even filed these days if it is during the season to keep them off the field.
By the way, I can absolutely guarantee you that if I were charged with the exact same thing that she was charged with, I would be suspended from my job immediately upon arrest, tenure be damned, and would almost certainly be fired after review. So it's not like this would be treating her unfair compared to the rest of us...
_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
|
|
Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 63767
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/27/19 4:21 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Williams pled “not guilty”.
| Quote: |
| The league told the AP through a spokesperson on Sunday night that "the matter is under active investigation, and we have nothing to report at this time.'' |
_________________
Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11145
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/27/19 4:28 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| I was stunned when I saw her name in the box score. No other professional league would have allowed her to play given the severity of the charges, and the fact that the victim was female.
_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66905
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
|
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/27/19 4:55 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
So the Lakers let someone who was on work release for a DUI charge work, and the contention therefore is that someone charged with Aggravated Assault and Burglary against a girlfriend, a significantly more serious crime happening in a time when we are trying to put a focus on domestic assault, should also be allowed to work...
Makes sense. Definitely an apples to apples comparison.
_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66905
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/27/19 5:03 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| justintyme wrote: |
So the Lakers let someone who was on work release for a DUI charge work, and the contention therefore is that someone charged with Aggravated Assault and Burglary against a girlfriend, a significantly more serious crime happening in a time when we are trying to put a focus on domestic assault, should also be allowed to work...
Makes sense. Definitely an apples to apples comparison. |
The flip side is that Caldwell-Pope had been convicted while Williams has not. All we know is what's been in the news, which is incomplete at best.
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/27/19 5:34 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
The flip side is that Caldwell-Pope had been convicted while Williams has not. All we know is what's been in the news, which is incomplete at best. |
We know she has been arrested and charged. That should be all the neccessary and sufficient conditions for a suspension that keeps her off the court until her legal issues are taken care of.
As I noted, that is 100% what would happen to me if I were arrested and charged with what she was. I would be sent home and not allowed to set foot on campus pending review (and the conclusion of my court case). At which time, I would likely be fired unless I could prove my innocence or the charges were dropped or some other extenuating circumstance.
In other words, we know enough to know she should not be on the court right now.
_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
|
|
bballgrl
Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 3629
Back to top |
|
willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012
Posts: 1093
Location: NorCal
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/27/19 10:12 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I am not even sure it is right to mix a person private life with their job if it does not impact it directly. Still some vocations such as in the entertainment industry a category in which professional sports certainly does fall is dependent upon a public image. Personally, I am not a fan of turning sports figures into role models, rather by what they were paid to do. Still, it is what it is so spousal abuse has become an issue.
The Williams case certainly does seem to reflect a double standard. Not so much by the league but by the media. Let's be real. The various sports leagues are driven by public opinion and public opinion is influenced by the Media. The NFL would have never instituted their spousal abuse policy if public opinion had not forced them too. Cudo's to the media in that case.
The article about how well Williams is dealing with playing and her legal difficulties is a far cry from what they would be doing if the issue was between couples of the opposite gender. I am not even calling for the media to crucify Williams, rather just that this is just another case of a double standard furled by which victims deserve the most attention based on social agenda . Not all victims are held to be the same. Some are totally ignored.
The perfect example was the spousal abuse case involving the SF LB. Foster. Anyone with a modicum of common sense could have surmised that the accusation was bogus, yet the DA for political reasons chose to prosecute and the press bought into it and soon were calling for the team to release him. It turned to be a total fabrication. Now the accused was a black guy but his minority PC status was not equal to the victim staus of a woman victim, so he was fair game for the press. By the way the team suspended him until he was cleared. They eventually released him anyway because he showed no common sense and renewed his relationship with someone who was shown to have serious mental issues.
Frankly it doesn't matter to me what the league does. What is important is if the legal system does its job. Unfortunately the systems track record is nto that great, but that does not mean that the burdon should be put on others. What is also more important is that judgements, both legal and social are based on reason and justice and not purely on the whims of what ever is popular at any given point in time.
_________________
No one one is ever as good as their best game, nor as bad as their worst.
|
|
GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 14109
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/28/19 4:27 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| justintyme wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
The flip side is that Caldwell-Pope had been convicted while Williams has not. All we know is what's been in the news, which is incomplete at best. |
We know she has been arrested and charged. That should be all the neccessary and sufficient conditions for a suspension that keeps her off the court until her legal issues are taken care of.
As I noted, that is 100% what would happen to me if I were arrested and charged with what she was. I would be sent home and not allowed to set foot on campus pending review (and the conclusion of my court case). At which time, I would likely be fired unless I could prove my innocence or the charges were dropped or some other extenuating circumstance.
In other words, we know enough to know she should not be on the court right now. |
There are some details people are not considering that are rather important to this situation. When this incident that she is accused of occurred she was not under contract, so she was not an employee of the WNBA or an official representative of the WNBA. And people are not privy to the conversations that may or may not happened between the league office, the Sparks front office, the lawyers, the agents, the players union and Riquana Williams before she signed on May 15. If the league deemed at the time what ever occurred was suspension worthy why approve the signing.
And you mention what would happen at your work if you were employed, but what would your work do if you were hired after the incident occurred?? Would you employer say welcome you are hired then as soon as you sign your contract say btw you know that incident you are awaiting court on a few months prior to you signing, yea we are going to suspend you for it till that gets situated.
|
|
FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3513
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/28/19 8:27 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| justintyme wrote: |
So the Lakers let someone who was on work release for a DUI charge work, and the contention therefore is that someone charged with Aggravated Assault and Burglary against a girlfriend, a significantly more serious crime happening in a time when we are trying to put a focus on domestic assault, should also be allowed to work...
Makes sense. Definitely an apples to apples comparison. |
I’m going to take issue with this. The DUI-related death rate is ~11K victims/yr and the gun-related homicide rate is ~13K victims per year for the most recent years I could find statistics in the US. However, the number of injuries is ~275K for drunk drivers and ~75K for firearms, and the recidivism rate is much higher for drunk drivers as well. So yes, this is an apples to oranges comparison, but the drunk drivers are the ones who ought to be kept in jail to keep the rest of the population safe.
|
|
miller40
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 1334
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/28/19 9:09 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
So the Lakers let someone who was on work release for a DUI charge work, and the contention therefore is that someone charged with Aggravated Assault and Burglary against a girlfriend, a significantly more serious crime happening in a time when we are trying to put a focus on domestic assault, should also be allowed to work...
Makes sense. Definitely an apples to apples comparison. |
I’m going to take issue with this. The DUI-related death rate is ~11K victims/yr and the gun-related homicide rate is ~13K victims per year for the most recent years I could find statistics in the US. However, the number of injuries is ~275K for drunk drivers and ~75K for firearms, and the recidivism rate is much higher for drunk drivers as well. So yes, this is an apples to oranges comparison, but the drunk drivers are the ones who ought to be kept in jail to keep the rest of the population safe. |
I can’t remember, but how did the W and the Merc handle Taurasi’s in-season DUI?
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11145
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/28/19 9:10 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| GEF34 wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
The flip side is that Caldwell-Pope had been convicted while Williams has not. All we know is what's been in the news, which is incomplete at best. |
We know she has been arrested and charged. That should be all the neccessary and sufficient conditions for a suspension that keeps her off the court until her legal issues are taken care of.
As I noted, that is 100% what would happen to me if I were arrested and charged with what she was. I would be sent home and not allowed to set foot on campus pending review (and the conclusion of my court case). At which time, I would likely be fired unless I could prove my innocence or the charges were dropped or some other extenuating circumstance.
In other words, we know enough to know she should not be on the court right now. |
There are some details people are not considering that are rather important to this situation. When this incident that she is accused of occurred she was not under contract, so she was not an employee of the WNBA or an official representative of the WNBA. And people are not privy to the conversations that may or may not happened between the league office, the Sparks front office, the lawyers, the agents, the players union and Riquana Williams before she signed on May 15. If the league deemed at the time what ever occurred was suspension worthy why approve the signing.
And you mention what would happen at your work if you were employed, but what would your work do if you were hired after the incident occurred?? Would you employer say welcome you are hired then as soon as you sign your contract say btw you know that incident you are awaiting court on a few months prior to you signing, yea we are going to suspend you for it till that gets situated. |
So it's OK to hire someone who does this kind of thing, but if you've already hired them, you have to suspend them?
_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 14109
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/28/19 9:19 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ClayK wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
The flip side is that Caldwell-Pope had been convicted while Williams has not. All we know is what's been in the news, which is incomplete at best. |
We know she has been arrested and charged. That should be all the neccessary and sufficient conditions for a suspension that keeps her off the court until her legal issues are taken care of.
As I noted, that is 100% what would happen to me if I were arrested and charged with what she was. I would be sent home and not allowed to set foot on campus pending review (and the conclusion of my court case). At which time, I would likely be fired unless I could prove my innocence or the charges were dropped or some other extenuating circumstance.
In other words, we know enough to know she should not be on the court right now. |
There are some details people are not considering that are rather important to this situation. When this incident that she is accused of occurred she was not under contract, so she was not an employee of the WNBA or an official representative of the WNBA. And people are not privy to the conversations that may or may not happened between the league office, the Sparks front office, the lawyers, the agents, the players union and Riquana Williams before she signed on May 15. If the league deemed at the time what ever occurred was suspension worthy why approve the signing.
And you mention what would happen at your work if you were employed, but what would your work do if you were hired after the incident occurred?? Would you employer say welcome you are hired then as soon as you sign your contract say btw you know that incident you are awaiting court on a few months prior to you signing, yea we are going to suspend you for it till that gets situated. |
So it's OK to hire someone who does this kind of thing, but if you've already hired them, you have to suspend them? |
That is up to the employer to decide if they want to hire someone who has a situation like that pending and how they want to handle it, but at the end of the day if they choose to hire and then suspend someone for something they did while they were not employed the only one really losing out is the employer because they now have a position that can be filled by someone actually doing work instead it’s filled by someone just sitting at home. And no an employer isn’t required to suspend a person already working for them for any reason, however Justintyme did say his employer would 100% suspend a person had that occurred, so in his case the employer has required it of themselves to suspend the person. And regardless of what any employer does or doesn’t do in a situation like this, I was mainly pointing out the difference in Justintyme’s example of what his current employer would do to him and the WNBA allowing a player to sign already knowing this situation occurred while she was not employed.
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66905
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/28/19 9:28 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| miller40 wrote: |
| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
So the Lakers let someone who was on work release for a DUI charge work, and the contention therefore is that someone charged with Aggravated Assault and Burglary against a girlfriend, a significantly more serious crime happening in a time when we are trying to put a focus on domestic assault, should also be allowed to work...
Makes sense. Definitely an apples to apples comparison. |
I’m going to take issue with this. The DUI-related death rate is ~11K victims/yr and the gun-related homicide rate is ~13K victims per year for the most recent years I could find statistics in the US. However, the number of injuries is ~275K for drunk drivers and ~75K for firearms, and the recidivism rate is much higher for drunk drivers as well. So yes, this is an apples to oranges comparison, but the drunk drivers are the ones who ought to be kept in jail to keep the rest of the population safe. |
I can’t remember, but how did the W and the Merc handle Taurasi’s in-season DUI? |
She got a suspension equivalent to one she got for swearing at a ref
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/28/19 10:08 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| justintyme wrote: |
So the Lakers let someone who was on work release for a DUI charge work, and the contention therefore is that someone charged with Aggravated Assault and Burglary against a girlfriend, a significantly more serious crime happening in a time when we are trying to put a focus on domestic assault, should also be allowed to work...
Makes sense. Definitely an apples to apples comparison. |
I’m going to take issue with this. The DUI-related death rate is ~11K victims/yr and the gun-related homicide rate is ~13K victims per year for the most recent years I could find statistics in the US. However, the number of injuries is ~275K for drunk drivers and ~75K for firearms, and the recidivism rate is much higher for drunk drivers as well. So yes, this is an apples to oranges comparison, but the drunk drivers are the ones who ought to be kept in jail to keep the rest of the population safe. |
I don't disagree about our handling of DUI related offenses. However, the criminal justice system considers these two offenses much differently, and in reality society doesn't weigh them as equal either. Thus the ability to get work release, and the fact that few people ever lose their jobs over DUI unless their jobs involve driving. So if both the criminal justice system and society as a whole consider these two miles apart in severity, it seems odd to suggest they should be treated similarly.
But the point here would be that DUI should be taken as seriously as we take other offenses...not that we treat other extremely serious offenses like domestic assault as lackadaisically as we treat DUI.
_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
|
|
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/28/19 10:32 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ClayK wrote: |
So it's OK to hire someone who does this kind of thing, but if you've already hired them, you have to suspend them? |
Yeah, to me that makes this situation even worse.
I mean, she wasn't even under contract. That means the Sparks didn't have to do anything at all. They could have just let her legal issues play out. But instead, they went out and re-signed someone with pending charges of aggravated assault of an ex-girlfriend. Are people really hand waving this away right now? Why can't I get over the fact that I feel some of the people doing this are the same people who would be leading the charge against a male NBA player if he were signed by a team while he had pending charges against him for forcing himself into an ex-girlfriend's house, punching her in the head a few times, pulling her hair, and then when leaving pulling a gun out, placing it on the trunk of the car and telling one of the witnesses, "You'll get all 18".
I mean seriously, if this were a man in the NFL, MLB, NBA, etc right now, and this were happening, it would be nonstop coverage and my bet is more than a couple presidential hopefuls would have weighed in. Yet, because woman, we just shrug. How does that not infuriate people?
_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
|
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/28/19 10:45 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| justintyme wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
So it's OK to hire someone who does this kind of thing, but if you've already hired them, you have to suspend them? |
Yeah, to me that makes this situation even worse.
I mean, she wasn't even under contract. That means the Sparks didn't have to do anything at all. They could have just let her legal issues play out. But instead, they went out and re-signed someone with pending charges of aggravated assault of an ex-girlfriend. Are people really hand waving this away right now? Why can't I get over the fact that I feel some of the people doing this are the same people who would be leading the charge against a male NBA player if he were signed by a team while he had pending charges against him for forcing himself into an ex-girlfriend's house, punching her in the head a few times, pulling her hair, and then when leaving pulling a gun out, placing it on the trunk of the car and telling one of the witnesses, "You'll get all 18".
I mean seriously, if this were a man in the NFL, MLB, NBA, etc right now, and this were happening, it would be nonstop coverage and my bet is more than a couple presidential hopefuls would have weighed in. Yet, because woman, we just shrug. How does that not infuriate people? |
In my view, there are two issues interspersed here. One involves the gender of the perpetrator. Some people may not speak out as strongly about same-sex domestic violence as opposite-sex domestic violence. I believe we should all speak out as strongly as possible regarding ANY form of domestic violence, no matter the age, race, sexual orientation, or gender identity of the assailant or the victim.
The other issue is the invisibility of the WNBA and women's sports in general. Many of those who would indeed speak out if the incident involved a player for the NFL, MLB, NBA, simply don't give a _____ about the WNBA or any women's sport. If the WNBA folded tomorrow, they wouldn't care.
For me, both of these terrible realities made it easier for the Sparks to sign Williams, something that didn't have to happen and in my view never should have happened while charges are pending.
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11145
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/29/19 4:29 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
So Odubel Herrera of the Philadelphia Phillies is charged with domestic abuse and is immediately suspended.
The more I think about this, the angrier I get -- and I usually don't get that upset over such things. But how can Penny Toler, or any female, or any adult who cares about domestic violence, especially directed against women, think that it's OK to have Riquna Williams working for your organization?
Maybe it's because there's no commissioner, or maybe it's because no one cares that much, but the fact that Major League Baseball will immediately suspend a man for actions less objectionable than what Williams did (no gun involved), and the WNBA stands idly by, is really disgusting.
But again, no one seems to care ...
_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
|
|
