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Tennessee hires Kellie Harper to coach Lady Vols
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Phil



Joined: 22 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 04/09/19 3:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

linkster wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:

IMO, there's going to be pressure to stay within the family for other schools like ND, Stanford, and UConn when their long time coaches retire within the next 20 years.



I agree. But isn't it revealing that of Summitt, Geno & McGraw, none were "family" when hired.


Picking up on that, what is the best overall family hire in history? (I have no idea, haven't yet given it any thought.)


CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 04/09/19 3:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

linkster wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:

IMO, there's going to be pressure to stay within the family for other schools like ND, Stanford, and UConn when their long time coaches retire within the next 20 years.


I agree. But isn't it revealing that of Summitt, Geno & McGraw, none were "family" when hired.


None was hired in the last 30 years, either.
None of their respective programs had been built when they were hired. None was replacing a coaching legend or even a perennial top-10/top-20 finisher.


pilight



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PostPosted: 04/09/19 3:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Phil wrote:
linkster wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:

IMO, there's going to be pressure to stay within the family for other schools like ND, Stanford, and UConn when their long time coaches retire within the next 20 years.



I agree. But isn't it revealing that of Summitt, Geno & McGraw, none were "family" when hired.


Picking up on that, what is the best overall family hire in history? (I have no idea, haven't yet given it any thought.)


Leon Barmore won a national championship. He's the only alum head coach to do that in WCBB.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 04/09/19 3:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
linkster wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:

IMO, there's going to be pressure to stay within the family for other schools like ND, Stanford, and UConn when their long time coaches retire within the next 20 years.


I agree. But isn't it revealing that of Summitt, Geno & McGraw, none were "family" when hired.


None was hired in the last 30 years, either.
None of their respective programs had been built when they were hired. None was replacing a coaching legend or even a perennial top-10/top-20 finisher.


None of the final four was coached by an alum. No team in the final AP top 25 was coached by one of their former WCBB players.

There's very little evidence to suggest hiring "family" is helpful for a school that has national aspirations.



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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 04/09/19 4:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Tenn made it official and issued a press release. KJH is getting a 5-year contract at $750K/yr. Formal press conference tomorrow.


PUmatty



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PostPosted: 04/09/19 4:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
linkster wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:

IMO, there's going to be pressure to stay within the family for other schools like ND, Stanford, and UConn when their long time coaches retire within the next 20 years.


I agree. But isn't it revealing that of Summitt, Geno & McGraw, none were "family" when hired.


None was hired in the last 30 years, either.
None of their respective programs had been built when they were hired. None was replacing a coaching legend or even a perennial top-10/top-20 finisher.


None of the final four was coached by an alum. No team in the final AP top 25 was coached by one of their former WCBB players.

There's very little evidence to suggest hiring "family" is helpful for a school that has national aspirations.


I don't have data, but I would guess the opposite is true and hiring "family" actually hurts chances. A coach like that is often hired with less experience and prior success than other candidates, and if they are loved locally they will be kept longer if they aren't successful. Do that, and you can kill a program.

Exhibit A: https://purduesports.com/coaches.aspx?rc=388


PRballer



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PostPosted: 04/09/19 4:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

And all those legacy programs have appointed heirs to take over the HOF coaches. Connecticut (Rizzotti or Ralph), Stanford (Paye), Notre Dame (Cunningham or Ivey), so the trend will continue.


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 04/09/19 8:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

linkster wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:

IMO, there's going to be pressure to stay within the family for other schools like ND, Stanford, and UConn when their long time coaches retire within the next 20 years.



I agree. But isn't it revealing that of Summitt, Geno & McGraw, none were "family" when hired.


When Pat Summitt was hired, there wasn’t any “family”! Very Happy But she was a Tennessee girl and she had played her basketball at UT-Martin. It was 1973, FFS.

I don’t think there was much “family” at UConn when Geno was hired either. Nor do I remember any at ND, although there may have been.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 04/09/19 9:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Davis4632 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Once you limit yourself for reasons of school politics to hiring a member of the Pat Family, this is probably your best choice.

Could have done better, but not as long as "must have ties to Pat" is on your list of requirements.

She's likely an improvement, even a big improvement, over her predecessor.


This hire reminds me of the Doherty hire at UNC years ago. There were better options to hire after their Plan A hire (Roy Williams for UNC, Jeff Walz for Tenn) turned them down and then went for the hire that had ties to the school. UNC had plenty of coaches who were interest in the job that didn't have UNC ties (John Calipari, Tubby Smith) and there was even some that UNC ties but was either "tainted" or too old (Larry Brown, Doug Moe, George Karl, Phil Ford). If Banghart from Princeton or Coach Abe from UCF were Tenn alum, they would've have been taken more seriously as candidates for the job.

IMO, there's going to be pressure to stay within the family for other schools like ND, Stanford, and UConn when their long time coaches retire within the next 20 years.


I don't think that will be a factor at ND. Never has been in any sport no matter how beloved the former coach might have been. Oh, sometimes there are groups clamoring for some popular former player or assistant, but it never seems to happen.

On the other hand, it reminds me a lot of USC football. They had great success with a coach with zero school ties in Pete Carrol, but since then they have been unwilling to break away from the Carrol crew and it's been disaster after disaster.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 04/09/19 9:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PRballer wrote:
And all those legacy programs have appointed heirs to take over the HOF coaches. Connecticut (Rizzotti or Ralph), Stanford (Paye), Notre Dame (Cunningham or Ivey), so the trend will continue.


I don't know why you assume any heir is "appointed" at ND. Some fans might have a preference. I doubt that will drive the actual decision.

And depending on how long McGraw stays around, there are a lot of former players working as assistants right now, any of whom could be successful head coaches somewhere and possible candidates in 8-10 years.


patsweetpat



Joined: 14 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: 04/09/19 10:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Phil wrote:
linkster wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:

IMO, there's going to be pressure to stay within the family for other schools like ND, Stanford, and UConn when their long time coaches retire within the next 20 years.



I agree. But isn't it revealing that of Summitt, Geno & McGraw, none were "family" when hired.


Picking up on that, what is the best overall family hire in history? (I have no idea, haven't yet given it any thought.)


I'm sure there's a better answer to your question than this, but the first one that comes to my mind: Scott Rueck is an Oregon State alum who went away to coach at George Fox University, and was ultimately brought back to be the head coach for Oregon State, and that has certainly worked out well for the Bears.


myrtle



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PostPosted: 04/10/19 12:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

patsweetpat wrote:
Phil wrote:
linkster wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:

IMO, there's going to be pressure to stay within the family for other schools like ND, Stanford, and UConn when their long time coaches retire within the next 20 years.



I agree. But isn't it revealing that of Summitt, Geno & McGraw, none were "family" when hired.


Picking up on that, what is the best overall family hire in history? (I have no idea, haven't yet given it any thought.)


I'm sure there's a better answer to your question than this, but the first one that comes to my mind: Scott Rueck is an Oregon State alum who went away to coach at George Fox University, and was ultimately brought back to be the head coach for Oregon State, and that has certainly worked out well for the Bears.


er, beavers.



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 04/10/19 12:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
PRballer wrote:
And all those legacy programs have appointed heirs to take over the HOF coaches. Connecticut (Rizzotti or Ralph), Stanford (Paye), Notre Dame (Cunningham or Ivey), so the trend will continue.


I don't know why you assume any heir is "appointed" at ND. Some fans might have a preference. I doubt that will drive the actual decision.

And depending on how long McGraw stays around, there are a lot of former players working as assistants right now, any of whom could be successful head coaches somewhere and possible candidates in 8-10 years.


same for Stanford but I do think Paye is the odds on favorite.



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patsweetpat



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PostPosted: 04/10/19 1:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
patsweetpat wrote:
Phil wrote:
linkster wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:

IMO, there's going to be pressure to stay within the family for other schools like ND, Stanford, and UConn when their long time coaches retire within the next 20 years.



I agree. But isn't it revealing that of Summitt, Geno & McGraw, none were "family" when hired.


Picking up on that, what is the best overall family hire in history? (I have no idea, haven't yet given it any thought.)


I'm sure there's a better answer to your question than this, but the first one that comes to my mind: Scott Rueck is an Oregon State alum who went away to coach at George Fox University, and was ultimately brought back to be the head coach for Oregon State, and that has certainly worked out well for the Bears.


er, beavers.


Tried to write "Beavs" and I'm pretty sure autocorrect decided to switch it to Bears. But yes, obviously, Beavers.


PlayBally'all



Joined: 17 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: 04/10/19 10:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Once you limit yourself for reasons of school politics to hiring a member of the Pat Family, this is probably your best choice.

Could have done better, but not as long as "must have ties to Pat" is on your list of requirements.

She's likely an improvement, even a big improvement, over her predecessor.


I don't believe that was a requirement at all. I believe there was a desire to hire a female head coach. Past that, the door was open for Fulmer to hire as he wanted. Kellie is popular with the fan base. That is never a bad thing when you depend on that support like all programs do.


PlayBally'all



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PostPosted: 04/10/19 10:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Phil wrote:
linkster wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:

IMO, there's going to be pressure to stay within the family for other schools like ND, Stanford, and UConn when their long time coaches retire within the next 20 years.



I agree. But isn't it revealing that of Summitt, Geno & McGraw, none were "family" when hired.


Picking up on that, what is the best overall family hire in history? (I have no idea, haven't yet given it any thought.)


Leon Barmore won a national championship. He's the only alum head coach to do that in WCBB.


And if they had hired Kim Mulkey to replace him, do you have any doubt that she would have won?


pilight



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PostPosted: 04/10/19 10:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PlayBally'all wrote:
pilight wrote:
Phil wrote:
linkster wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:

IMO, there's going to be pressure to stay within the family for other schools like ND, Stanford, and UConn when their long time coaches retire within the next 20 years.



I agree. But isn't it revealing that of Summitt, Geno & McGraw, none were "family" when hired.


Picking up on that, what is the best overall family hire in history? (I have no idea, haven't yet given it any thought.)


Leon Barmore won a national championship. He's the only alum head coach to do that in WCBB.


And if they had hired Kim Mulkey to replace him, do you have any doubt that she would have won?


I don't know if she could have maintained them as a national power.



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summertime blues



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PostPosted: 04/10/19 6:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Did the La Tech AD pull the same stunt with WBB that the ODU AD did? That is, decide that it was no longer that important (to him) and pull funding and basic support? That led to the start of the decline at ODU, even though Wendy Larry was still coaching.



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linkster



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PostPosted: 04/10/19 8:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
linkster wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:

IMO, there's going to be pressure to stay within the family for other schools like ND, Stanford, and UConn when their long time coaches retire within the next 20 years.


I agree. But isn't it revealing that of Summitt, Geno & McGraw, none were "family" when hired.


None was hired in the last 30 years, either.
None of their respective programs had been built when they were hired. None was replacing a coaching legend or even a perennial top-10/top-20 finisher.


True, but from a strictly results viewpoint it seems that, among the most successful coaches, those with no prior connection to the school make up the bulk. It is evidence that trying to maintain the legacy leads to a bad end, but it's the safe road as far as keeping the fans happy.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 04/10/19 10:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

linkster wrote:
CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
linkster wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:

IMO, there's going to be pressure to stay within the family for other schools like ND, Stanford, and UConn when their long time coaches retire within the next 20 years.


I agree. But isn't it revealing that of Summitt, Geno & McGraw, none were "family" when hired.


None was hired in the last 30 years, either.
None of their respective programs had been built when they were hired. None was replacing a coaching legend or even a perennial top-10/top-20 finisher.


True, but from a strictly results viewpoint it seems that, among the most successful coaches, those with no prior connection to the school make up the bulk. It is evidence that trying to maintain the legacy leads to a bad end, but it's the safe road as far as keeping the fans happy.


It's hard enough to find the right coach without tying your hands with artificial, non-basketball-related, requirements and limitations. I'm not surprised schools that limit their pool before they even start considering candidates aren't as sucessful.

The one situation where it DOES sometimes help is when ties to a school help attract a desirable experienced coach. Sometimes schools can attract a star because it's the coach's alma mater where they would otherwise not typically be interested in the job.


PUmatty



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PostPosted: 04/11/19 12:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
linkster wrote:
CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
linkster wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:

IMO, there's going to be pressure to stay within the family for other schools like ND, Stanford, and UConn when their long time coaches retire within the next 20 years.


I agree. But isn't it revealing that of Summitt, Geno & McGraw, none were "family" when hired.


None was hired in the last 30 years, either.
None of their respective programs had been built when they were hired. None was replacing a coaching legend or even a perennial top-10/top-20 finisher.


True, but from a strictly results viewpoint it seems that, among the most successful coaches, those with no prior connection to the school make up the bulk. It is evidence that trying to maintain the legacy leads to a bad end, but it's the safe road as far as keeping the fans happy.


It's hard enough to find the right coach without tying your hands with artificial, non-basketball-related, requirements and limitations. I'm not surprised schools that limit their pool before they even start considering candidates aren't as sucessful.

The one situation where it DOES sometimes help is when ties to a school help attract a desirable experienced coach. Sometimes schools can attract a star because it's the coach's alma mater where they would otherwise not typically be interested in the job.


One other reason could be because you expect the alumna coach to stay rather than use the position as a stepping stone. Take Rueck at Oregon State. If he had not ties to the school, how likely might it be that he would have been poached for a better job? I don't know the answer, but I have to think there is a decent chance.

That can also go awry, though. It is part of the reason that Purdue hired Versyp. Curry was helped out the door, but after her, Fortner's, and Peck's departures, Purdue was making it's four hire in just more than 10 years. Part of the idea behind Versyp was that you a good coach who wants to stay rather than one who will be looking to jump. In our case, it led to a total disaster, but in OSU's it seems to be working.


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PostPosted: 04/11/19 1:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PRballer wrote:
And all those legacy programs have appointed heirs to take over the HOF coaches. Connecticut (Rizzotti or Ralph), Stanford (Paye), Notre Dame (Cunningham or Ivey), so the trend will continue.



This is quite an assumption, imo.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 04/11/19 1:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
PRballer wrote:
And all those legacy programs have appointed heirs to take over the HOF coaches. Connecticut (Rizzotti or Ralph), Stanford (Paye), Notre Dame (Cunningham or Ivey), so the trend will continue.



This is quite an assumption, imo.


As for UConn, contrary to traditional mass wisdom, I have never thought Rizzotti would follow Geno. She's never recruited any sort of star player at two schools and her offense is boring. Plus, she may be too old when he finally retires. I expect Geno to hang on until he passes Pat Summitt and Tara VanDerveer in wins and until he's sure VanDerveer can't surpass him. That could be another five to 10 years.

Ralph is possible, but I have no idea how good a recruiter she is. That's the key thing at any elite college sports program. To attain and maintain an elite program, the head coach must personally be an elite recruiter. Star assistants are not enough because they will usually leave for head coaching opportunities.
pilight



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PostPosted: 04/11/19 2:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
I expect Geno to hang on until he passes Pat Summitt and Tara VanDerveer in wins and until he's sure VanDerveer can't surpass him. That could be another five to 10 years.


It could be never. Auriemma and Vanderveer are only nine months apart in age. In ten years, if he gains as many wins on her as he has the last ten (a tall order) he'll be about two seasons up on her.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 04/11/19 2:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
I expect Geno to hang on until he passes Pat Summitt and Tara VanDerveer in wins and until he's sure VanDerveer can't surpass him. That could be another five to 10 years.


It could be never. Auriemma and Vanderveer are only nine months apart in age. In ten years, if he gains as many wins on her as he has the last ten (a tall order) he'll be about two seasons up on her.


Yes, he might give up. He's five wins behind her now and she may have better teams the next few years, although she's in a much tougher conference. It'll be close if they both hang on past 70.
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