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Cheating among the blueblood universities
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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 03/13/19 9:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stanford is a very hard school to get into, but several graduates have told me over the years that it is also hard to flunk out of. They are supposed to work very hard to make it so that students pass. Allen Dershowitz made some similar statement last night with regard to these schools being hard to get into and hard to flunk out of.


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 03/13/19 9:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sure, schools will work to retain students...provide extra study help, counseling, whatever, but that doesn't help the goof-offs who'd rather party than study.


GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: 03/13/19 9:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
Speebs56 wrote:
I wonder what happened once those kids got in on a pass. Did they stay in college? Did they pass any courses?? DID THEY ACTUALLY TAKE THE TESTS IN THE COURSES THEY TOOK?

Jesus. Mad



I would think some of those schools are going to chew up these under-achieving kids and spit them out after a semester or two. Either that or mommy is going to have to bribe an awful lot of professors. Even when their admissions process is deficient, most elite schools are invested in producing superior graduates.


Unfortunately . . . wrong . . . for many of the most elite colleges.

In my day in the Ivy League in the 1960's, such unqualified students would fail out or otherwise not succeed in the highly competitive academic environment. But today, because of rampant "grade inflation", virtually no one fails at many of the most elite universities. Virtually no one even gets a grade as low as a C. If you get in, you can sail by with B's without doing much work at all. And some of the colleges have abolished grades altogether. That's why such cheating scandals can attract millionaire customers today, when they could not have in the past.

Harvard's Alan Dershowitz refers to all this in his reaction to the scandal HERE.
tfan



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PostPosted: 03/13/19 10:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
Sure, schools will work to retain students...provide extra study help, counseling, whatever, but that doesn't help the goof-offs who'd rather party than study.


They may provide a lot of study help, but I was under the impression the grading has been loosened to where it is much easier to pass a course.


myrtle



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PostPosted: 03/14/19 1:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Stanford is a very hard school to get into, but several graduates have told me over the years that it is also hard to flunk out of. They are supposed to work very hard to make it so that students pass. Allen Dershowitz made some similar statement last night with regard to these schools being hard to get into and hard to flunk out of.


In my day, which has of course been quite a few days before now Laughing , you had to work really hard at Stanford. It was very competitive and you could in fact flunk. I personally didn't know anybody who didn't work hard. For instance, on our bball trips, everybody had stacks of books and notebooks (pre laptop days) and we were in them every free moment - on the bus, on the train, on the plane, in the hotel, in the training room....sometimes it was almost comical the moments we would find to study. As an athlete it was even harder because the non-athletes had that much more time to study. It also depended on your major. At that time, I think the most cut-throat was pre-med, but pre-law and others weren't too far behind. It could have totally changed by now, but that was my experience. There were months at a time where I averaged less than 5 hours of sleep a night. Looking back at it, sometimes I wonder how I survived!



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tfan



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PostPosted: 03/14/19 5:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:

In my day, which has of course been quite a few days before now Laughing , you had to work really hard at Stanford. It was very competitive and you could in fact flunk. I personally didn't know anybody who didn't work hard. For instance, on our bball trips, everybody had stacks of books and notebooks (pre laptop days) and we were in them every free moment - on the bus, on the train, on the plane, in the hotel, in the training room....sometimes it was almost comical the moments we would find to study. As an athlete it was even harder because the non-athletes had that much more time to study. It also depended on your major. At that time, I think the most cut-throat was pre-med, but pre-law and others weren't too far behind. It could have totally changed by now, but that was my experience. There were months at a time where I averaged less than 5 hours of sleep a night. Looking back at it, sometimes I wonder how I survived!


Were you there during Tara's time? What position were you?


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 03/14/19 7:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
tfan wrote:
Stanford is a very hard school to get into, but several graduates have told me over the years that it is also hard to flunk out of. They are supposed to work very hard to make it so that students pass. Allen Dershowitz made some similar statement last night with regard to these schools being hard to get into and hard to flunk out of.


In my day, which has of course been quite a few days before now Laughing , you had to work really hard at Stanford. It was very competitive and you could in fact flunk. I personally didn't know anybody who didn't work hard. For instance, on our bball trips, everybody had stacks of books and notebooks (pre laptop days) and we were in them every free moment - on the bus, on the train, on the plane, in the hotel, in the training room....sometimes it was almost comical the moments we would find to study. As an athlete it was even harder because the non-athletes had that much more time to study. It also depended on your major. At that time, I think the most cut-throat was pre-med, but pre-law and others weren't too far behind. It could have totally changed by now, but that was my experience. There were months at a time where I averaged less than 5 hours of sleep a night. Looking back at it, sometimes I wonder how I survived!


Also quite a few years ago, but I attended a pretty competitive university on the east coast, and they had no qualms about giving failing grades, putting students on academic probation, giving them some study help, then booting them out if they didn't shape up. Of course, most students who could get in possessed the intellect and work ethic to stay in.

I guess a couple of decades of helicopter parents and trophies for everyone have impacted collegiate standards.

It would be interesting to learn what percentage of the students admitted through this cheating scandal actually did well in college.


myrtle



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PostPosted: 03/14/19 9:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
myrtle wrote:

In my day, which has of course been quite a few days before now Laughing , you had to work really hard at Stanford. It was very competitive and you could in fact flunk. I personally didn't know anybody who didn't work hard. For instance, on our bball trips, everybody had stacks of books and notebooks (pre laptop days) and we were in them every free moment - on the bus, on the train, on the plane, in the hotel, in the training room....sometimes it was almost comical the moments we would find to study. As an athlete it was even harder because the non-athletes had that much more time to study. It also depended on your major. At that time, I think the most cut-throat was pre-med, but pre-law and others weren't too far behind. It could have totally changed by now, but that was my experience. There were months at a time where I averaged less than 5 hours of sleep a night. Looking back at it, sometimes I wonder how I survived!


Were you there during Tara's time? What position were you?


The very early days. She talks about how bad we were sometimes. And we were. The conditions weren't great either. We played many games in crackerbox gyms. Had to fight for everything. They were still struggling with how to make title IX work. We got a lot of shit as female athletes. Title IX was huge of course but Tara has really worked miracles there. So much respect!
But I was just talking about the scholastic side of things. There were actually some suicides of students who were failing or just couldn't take the grind. There were a lot of ads for suicide counseling. I actually think maybe it was too intense, so maybe now it has gone too far the other way. Pendulums tend to swing like that.



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Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 03/14/19 12:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Myrtle stop telling them how old you are, you will always seem like a young spring chicken to me.

Stanford is tough, Yes there are some stories as with every school and mine would be about football. But Tara flat out does not like any distraction and flunking would be a distraction.

Hey did Dersch tell you where his skeletons are hidden, I think under the file Epstein Laughing



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LitePal



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PostPosted: 03/14/19 12:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

As it pertains to USC womens basketball, how could Adbelaziz be admitted under the guise of what looks like a preferred walk on without Coach Mark Trakh knowing anything about it. Their womens roster had 12 players with one walk on whom he converted to a full scholarship at the beginning of the season. I can understand the admissions committee not being fully aware of this (although they should have been and almost certainly will be from now on) but even if now fired Assoc. AD Heinel did her best work, how could the head coach not know? Right now, it appears as if the coaches who have been fired took bribes but there might be other names named.


myrtle



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PostPosted: 03/14/19 12:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ok, ok, I really just graduated last year! But wanted people to think I was more mature. Laughing

Funny story. My Mom went to her 50th HS reunion. Me: "Mom, how was it? Did you have fun?" Mom: "It was pretty fun...but (and she lowers her voice conspiratorially) there were REALLY OLD people there! Even the cheerleaders looked old!" It was hilarious. Point being, somehow we never think of ourselves as old. So yeah, I'm still a Spring Chicken!



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 03/14/19 1:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Myrtle, did you play with Rikki Meuser?



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 03/14/19 1:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LitePal wrote:
As it pertains to USC womens basketball, how could Adbelaziz be admitted under the guise of what looks like a preferred walk on without Coach Mark Trakh knowing anything about it. Their womens roster had 12 players with one walk on whom he converted to a full scholarship at the beginning of the season. I can understand the admissions committee not being fully aware of this (although they should have been and almost certainly will be from now on) but even if now fired Assoc. AD Heinel did her best work, how could the head coach not know? Right now, it appears as if the coaches who have been fired took bribes but there might be other names named.


Not implausible considering (as I wrote above) that the basketball staff last fall was asking why she hadn't shown up for basketball. Heinel came up with the "she developed plantar fasciitis over the summer and can't play."

Understandable, considering she was ostensibly from China, that the staff had never met her, and just approved her getting admissions consideration as a preferred walk on based on the written presentation. It wasnt costing anything. They weren't giving her a scholarship. If she didn't show up, I doubt if they were very upset.

They did expect her though and did ask why when she was in school but not showing up for basketball activities.




Last edited by ArtBest23 on 03/14/19 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 03/14/19 1:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Duplicate


SDHoops



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PostPosted: 03/14/19 4:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I helped a few athletes who were courted by colleges including a few Ivys. I remember one coach told me that the college admission deadline and the requirements don't apply to potential athlete recruits...so I assumed this was a common practice? Even for some of the military schools, there are exceptions. So was this practice something that isn't normal? UConn MBB has a lot of explaining to do in that case....


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 03/15/19 1:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I see that Lori Loughlin's entitled brat daughters (including vlogger Olivia Jade) have left Stanford--ahead of being expelled, one assumes. And their mother has been disconnected from the Hallmark Channel. Too bad, so sad.



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LitePal



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PostPosted: 03/16/19 3:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

OJ and sister were at USC, not Stanford. When OJ heard about the story, she was in the Bahamas on the yacht of the COB of Trustees at USC and his daughter.

You couldn't write a better villain for the story.


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 03/16/19 3:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yeah, I don't know why I said Stanford.....maybe because I was talking about Stanford on another forum. Sorry about that. I really did know they were at USC. Embarassed



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summertime blues



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PostPosted: 03/16/19 4:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SDHoops wrote:
I helped a few athletes who were courted by colleges including a few Ivys. I remember one coach told me that the college admission deadline and the requirements don't apply to potential athlete recruits...so I assumed this was a common practice? Even for some of the military schools, there are exceptions. So was this practice something that isn't normal? UConn MBB has a lot of explaining to do in that case....


I have heard that some schools only offer slight wiggle room, but that might be a rumor too. Stanford is one. I know here in Virginia it's said that William & Mary, which is notoriously hard to get into, doesn't relax much if at all for athletes...of course they remain a mid-major.



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snzuluz



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PostPosted: 03/17/19 11:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Derrick Rose had someone go take his ACT test and cost Memphis all their wins while he was there...having kids go in and take ACT/SAT test for athletes is nothing new...when I played at Illinois State University, we had five members of the men's team in my class and they were required to always sit in the front row...large lecture hall...on test day other students of a different race showed up and took some of their tests.

One college I coached at, one of our art professors told me on my interview day that when he attended Bradley University he was paid to show up to take athletes tests if they were in a large lecture hall class...


FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 03/17/19 12:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I attended one school which was primarily a jock school where the men's teams were winning nat'l championships on a regular basis. Nearly all the varsity athletes, both male and female, were physical education majors, and while the women were mostly good students, a lot of the men were barely literate. It was made clear fairly early on that the women were expected to write papers for the men when asked. I made it fairly clear that I was too busy to participate in that program but I knew other women who did.


calbearman76



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PostPosted: 03/17/19 1:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I really don't like the tone of this thread. This was not cheating by the Universities; it was lax supervision at worst. There were teachers and administrators that were taking graft and families with too much money paying up. That is completely different from schools that participate in cheating. Indeed the Universities were victims. If the parents had made payments directly to the Universities in order to get preferential treatment for their kids there would have been nothing illegal.


Howee



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PostPosted: 03/17/19 8:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FrozenLVFan wrote:
I attended one school which was primarily a jock school where the men's teams were winning nat'l championships on a regular basis. Nearly all the varsity athletes, both male and female, were physical education majors, and while the women were mostly good students, a lot of the men were barely literate. It was made clear fairly early on that the women were expected to write papers for the men when asked. I made it fairly clear that I was too busy to participate in that program but I knew other women who did.


Now, THAT'S pretty egregious. Shocked I'm taking it you aren't interested in naming names--probably best anyways, as it's probably something that happened in numerous places. But, damn! Do you know, did any of your peers complain or register concern to authorities?

calbearman76 wrote:
I really don't like the tone of this thread. This was not cheating by the Universities; it was lax supervision at worst. There were teachers and administrators that were taking graft and families with too much money paying up. That is completely different from schools that participate in cheating. Indeed the Universities were victims. If the parents had made payments directly to the Universities in order to get preferential treatment for their kids there would have been nothing illegal.

Not clear on this: you mean parents could *pay* enough money to get their kids admitted if otherwise not qualified for entry? I mean, tuition is one thing, but how can they throw large amounts of money at a school for their kids' admission, if the kids don't pass admission standards, and that's NOT illegal?



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Retav8or



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PostPosted: 03/17/19 9:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
FrozenLVFan wrote:
I attended one school which was primarily a jock school where the men's teams were winning nat'l championships on a regular basis. Nearly all the varsity athletes, both male and female, were physical education majors, and while the women were mostly good students, a lot of the men were barely literate. It was made clear fairly early on that the women were expected to write papers for the men when asked. I made it fairly clear that I was too busy to participate in that program but I knew other women who did.


Now, THAT'S pretty egregious. Shocked I'm taking it you aren't interested in naming names--probably best anyways, as it's probably something that happened in numerous places. But, damn! Do you know, did any of your peers complain or register concern to authorities?

calbearman76 wrote:
I really don't like the tone of this thread. This was not cheating by the Universities; it was lax supervision at worst. There were teachers and administrators that were taking graft and families with too much money paying up. That is completely different from schools that participate in cheating. Indeed the Universities were victims. If the parents had made payments directly to the Universities in order to get preferential treatment for their kids there would have been nothing illegal.

Not clear on this: you mean parents could *pay* enough money to get their kids admitted if otherwise not qualified for entry? I mean, tuition is one thing, but how can they throw large amounts of money at a school for their kids' admission, if the kids don't pass admission standards, and that's NOT illegal?

Private Schools have taken endowments directly from donors throughout history Y not accept that persons child for admission a new wing can support a multitude of students. The difference is A its a private school and b. there is no fraud a quid pro quo
A child of a Medal of Honor recipient automatically qualifies to service academies (I don't have an issue with this btw) w minimum standards met taking a spot from more qualified applicants.
The difference I think is a matter transparency as well as legality. Public vs Private.


SDHoops



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PostPosted: 03/17/19 11:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Here's a weird twist to the whole pay for play type of discussion: Augustana University in South Dakota has a major fan and booster who happens to be the CEO of Sanford Health in South Dakota. They recently expressed their desire to go to the Division 1 level and play in the Summit League. The SL headquarters are scheduled to be in Sioux Falls soon at the Sanford Sports Complex...the booster is pushing for Augie and speculation is out there that the sponsorships for the Summit from Sanford could be impacted without a SL invite for Augie. I read an interview where the SL Commissioner admitted to visiting with Krabbenhoft (the CEO) and has insinuated that to be true. To me this is bribery at it's finest...


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