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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 03/06/19 10:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

well this has kind of derailed the draft thread so I will try and tie it in what I will say is that Canadaball is slowly convincing me of their argument.

The first time I saw Swoopes and Katie Smith was in that game where they played and Smith was a freshman and Swoopes was a senior and scored like 40 something points and I remember thinking just how awesome they were, like mind blowingly awesome. I remember having similar feeling when I saw DT as a freshman and anytime after I was just like "Damn who is that" even playing with a group of lottery seniors DT stood out, and Bird was just like a boss from day 1 when I saw her as a freshman through the DT years Bird just gave ultimate PG realness. I remember people on this board talking about EDD like she was the next great thing and i was skeptical and watched her play a game for Delaware that was televised and I thought she looked like she was glowing on the offensive end, it was like she was going at normal speed and everyone else was in slow motion. Similar but different when I saw Cappie at Rutgers it felt like there was a mix tape and 1 pro playing with high school girls, she could just get her shot at will. I remember watching an LSU game with Augustus and Fowles and I knew the first time I watched them they were amazing, light years ahead of everyone else on the court, and Griner was almost like an alien just so obviously something we had never seen before, sure when I watched these players more they would have some off moment or even games but it was blindingly obvious the level of talent. I haven't had that feeling as much recently.

But watching Plum her senior season there were times when she looked unstoppable so I am willing to give her a little more time to develop to that level. I have seen some star quality and it factor in both Ogunbowale and Durr for a few seasons now that lead me to believe they could be the next two best guard to join the league since Diggins, and it took Diggins a couple of seasons to get going. I see a lot of what I saw in Taurasi in Ionescu maybe not enough that she is a sure thing but I think it is way too early to write her off she could go down as one of the greats. I also see that same kind of quality in Chennedy Carter though she is giving me more of a McCoughtry kind of vibe but smaller. And while I don't think Wilson is mount Rushmore great I do think she is Ogwumike/Charles level great, I see Anigwe as having that same level potential. McCowan and Brown could be examples for both points of view they do not scream to me world changing players but could very well be 20/10 kind of players for a decade it just isn't as clear, people keep comparing McCowan to Fowles she may even have better numbers but I just don't get the same impression as when I saw Fowles and was just in awe but that doesn't mean it isn't there. Her freshman year I thought Joyner Holmes was going to be that next in line post but it hasn't come through, and I still think Diamond Deshields could very well ascend to the highest heights so I am no as pessimistic as Canada. There are also some top level high-schoolers that could be great Haley Jones, Boston, Horsten, Buekers, Brunell, Belibi, Fudd, maybe that cellar has risen talent-wise that the the ceiling doesn't seem as high as it used to that argument might hold some water, or similarly maybe there are more really good players so it is harder to see the great ones. But it does seem possible that the next great generational type of player hasn't emerged and we did have a kind of golden age, and we will have to wait a little bit for the next true game changer




Last edited by J-Spoon on 03/06/19 10:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
Luuuc



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PostPosted: 03/06/19 10:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's hard enough to compare what we have seen with our own eyes against predictions about what today's youngsters might turn out to be years into the future. Then add in the argument that the overall standard today is better - which would mean that any given player would not be as dominant today as the exact same player 20 years ago was … it's kind of impossible to come to a definitive conclusion IMO. So people can debate all they like - and it's interesting to read the viewpoints - but it's going to be at least a decade before they're able to claim they were right.


canadaball



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PostPosted: 03/06/19 10:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

J-Spoon wrote:
well this has kind of derailed the draft thread so I will try and tie it in what I will say is that Canadaball is slowly convincing me of their argument.

The first time I saw Swoopes and Katie Smith was in that game where they played and Smith was a freshman and Swoopes was a senior and scored like 40 something points and I remember thinking just how awesome they were, like mind blowingly awesome. I remember having similar feeling when I saw DT as a freshman and anytime I saw Bird play. I remember people on this board talking about EDD like she was the next great thing and i was skeptical and watched her play a game for Delaware that was televised and I thought she looked like she was glowing on the offensive end, it was like she was going at normal speed and everyone else was in slow motion. Similar but different when I saw Cappie at Rutgers it felt like there was a mix tape and 1 pro playing with high school girls, she could just get her shot at will. I remember watching an LSU game with Augustus and Fowles and I knew the first time I watched them they were amazing, light years ahead of everyone else on the court, and Griner was almost like an alien just so obviously something we had never seen before, sure when I watched these players more they would have some off moment or even games but it was blindingly obvious the level of talent. I haven't had that feeling as much recently.

But watching Plum her senior season there were times when she looked unstoppable so I am willing to give her a little more time to develop to that level. I have seen some star quality and it factor in both Ogunbowale and Durr for a few seasons now that lead me to believe they could be the next two best guard to join the league since Diggins, and it took Diggins a couple of seasons to get going. I see a lot of what I saw in Taurasi in Ionescu maybe not enough that she is a sure thing but I think it is way too early to write her off she could go down as one of the greats. I also see that same kind of quality in Chennedy Carter though she is giving me more of a McCoughtry kind of vibe but smaller. And while I don't think Wilson is mount Rushmore great I do think she is Ogwumike/Charles level great, I see Anigwe as having that same level potential. McCowan and Brown could be examples for both points of view they do not scream to me world changing players but could very well be 20/10 kind of players for a decade it just isn't as clear, people keep comparing McCowan to Fowles she may even have better numbers but I just don't get the same impression as when I saw Fowles and was just in awe but that doesn't mean it isn't there. Her freshman year I thought Joyner Holmes was going to be that next in line post but it hasn't come through, and I still think Diamond Deshields could very well ascend to the highest heights so I am no as pessimistic as Canada. There are also some top level high-schoolers that could be great Haley Jones, Boston, Horsten, Buekers, Brunell, Belibi, Fudd, maybe that cellar has risen talent-wise that the the ceiling doesn't seem as high as it used to that argument might hold some water, or similarly maybe there are more really good players so it is harder to see the great ones. But it does seem possible that the next great generational type of player hasn't emerged and we did have a kind of golden age, and we will have to wait a little bit for the next true game changer



To complete the circle, the purpose of my discussion is not to praise the oldsters, and knock the youngsters, but, rather, to better analyze the WNBA future of these younger players in light of, what I feel, is weaker NCAA competition. I used the Mount Rushmore types as the easiest way to clearly demonstrate how times have changed. When I see a Plum or Sabrina play in college, I feel they have not faced real challenging defenses. I do remember that Plum, in a possible preview of her early W career, had a great deal of trouble facing a Syracuse defense, not nearly as challenging as the pros. When DT or Bird, for example, played out their college careers, they did encounter some WNBA level opponents (which gave a good indication of their immediate W All Star status)); not so much nowadays. You compare Sabrina to DT, but I can imagine the DT of UConn years facing the defenses that Oregon sees almost all year. In my mind, that DT would be all powerful; however, I admit this is difficult to prove.
Do not be misled. I enjoy today's competitive NCAA basketball, instead of the usual UConn dominance, but Oregon, Notre Dame, and Oregon State are good examples of my point. They are all legitimate top 10 teams, but, boy, there is some awful defense going on. I do not think I have ever seen so many highly ranked teams being forced into zone defense against mediocre opposition. The Oregon game vs Arizona the other night was a good example. Even UConn, despite their current #2 ranking, is sending out their weakest defensive team in at least 2 decades. It is frightening to imagine what the stars of the past would do to some of these teams.


calbearman76



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PostPosted: 03/06/19 11:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree that the game has changed. The greater athleticism of players as well as the changing way the game is called has had an impact on what we see. But when you talk of how great certain players of 20 years ago looked even as freshman or sophomores it is more because the overall talent was not as good so their superiority stood out more. Maya Moore and Breanna Stewart were better athletes than Diana Taurasi and Swin Cash or Sue Bird. Brittney Griner is a freak who was better than anyone who played before her. The players keep getting bigger and faster. Some fundamentals have suffered but the overall level of play keeps going up. Look at the measurables for the 2019 draft and you will see they are better than 1999 by a long shot..


pilight



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 12:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Plum abuse has got to stop. She's had two pro seasons; one hampered by injury and one very good.

Part of the problem is canadaball's rose colored memory about players who turned out great. Diana Taurasi wasn't great as a freshperson. I mentioned upthread about her choking in the F4, but she came up small in a lot of big games that year. Remember when Notre Dame pummeled the Hussies on MLK day? Taurasi was 2/7 for 5 points. She had a few big games, against Tennessee for example, but she was very inconsistent. In the end she averaged a modest 10.9 ppg that year, not world beating numbers. And remember, she wasn't the #1 rated HS recruit that year so the notion that everyone saw her as an All Time great is just false.



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canadaball



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 12:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
I agree that the game has changed. The greater athleticism of players as well as the changing way the game is called has had an impact on what we see. But when you talk of how great certain players of 20 years ago looked even as freshman or sophomores it is more because the overall talent was not as good so their superiority stood out more. Maya Moore and Breanna Stewart were better athletes than Diana Taurasi and Swin Cash or Sue Bird. Brittney Griner is a freak who was better than anyone who played before her. The players keep getting bigger and faster. Some fundamentals have suffered but the overall level of play keeps going up. Look at the measurables for the 2019 draft and you will see they are better than 1999 by a long shot..


These are cliches much better applied to men's sports. You do not seem to have a good memory that spans the last 20 years. Bird and DT are guards, so comparing them to Maya and Stew makes little sense; however, even with their very advanced age, both are holding up quite nicely. Why would not the "greater athleticism" you seem to see in today's younger players run them out of the game? Swin Cash is surely a poor example to choose. She might be one of the most athletic players ever, and would run and jump rings around Maya, though the latter's shooting made her the better player. While Griner, in your words, may be a "freak" with her size, I would argue that Leslie, and LJ were better players. No sense going on and on, but I just do not see overwhelming athleticism in the 2017-2019 drafts plus what is in college today. Look at most of the top college teams today. Are teams like Louisville, Notre Dame, Oregon, and UConn really more athletic than teams a decade ago? I say no. Heck, look at the current mock drafts for this year. I see very little of the greater athleticism that you proclaim; in fact, the problem with several of these is their questionable athleticism.




Last edited by canadaball on 03/07/19 12:51 am; edited 1 time in total
root_thing



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 12:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's not like Stewart is from 10 years ago. She's class of 2016, but somehow gets conveniently categorized as being from the olden days. Jonquel Jones from that class set the WNBA rebounding record just two seasons ago. And Wilson this past season put up big numbers. DeShields also had a good year. So, all you really have is one bad draft class in 2017. Going back, we can find plenty of drafts that weren't anything special. 2000 produced Ann Wauters as the best player. 2005 yielded McCarville as the best player. 2007's top player was Lindsay Harding. A lot of other drafts had one good player and then a bunch of journeymen. So, a subpar 2017 Draft doesn't mean the sport is in decline, and all of those players still have time to develop.



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canadaball



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 1:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
The Plum abuse has got to stop. She's had two pro seasons; one hampered by injury and one very good.

Part of the problem is canadaball's rose colored memory about players who turned out great. Diana Taurasi wasn't great as a freshperson. I mentioned upthread about her choking in the F4, but she came up small in a lot of big games that year. Remember when Notre Dame pummeled the Hussies on MLK day? Taurasi was 2/7 for 5 points. She had a few big games, against Tennessee for example, but she was very inconsistent. In the end she averaged a modest 10.9 ppg that year, not world beating numbers. And remember, she wasn't the #1 rated HS recruit that year so the notion that everyone saw her as an All Time great is just false.



Talk about not seeing the forest b/c of the trees, and how stats can mislead. The UConn team of DT's freshman year, before the injuries to legit All Americans Svet and Shea Ralph (career-ending) might have had the most talent of any team ever. You had Bird, Cash, Jones (Olympians all) plus pros like Tamika Williams and Schumacher. Despite great talent, how could you expect newcomer DT to score lots of points? As with Angel, you choose to focus on a freshman season, when both DT and Angel were on the way to superstardom day 1 sophomore year. Please tell me any similar career paths in the 6 years worth of players from 2017-2023 classes. BTW DT stood out in a draft that included Beard and Whalen.
I don't want to pick on Plum, but both she and Kelsey Mitchell may well be warning signs about current great college players. The quality opposition they face in the NCAA now is way beneath the W. Plum's second year was average at best, and I just do not see stardom ahead. She is small and not athletic, plus a weak defender who gets destroyed in pick n roll switches, I would venture to guess that there are few, if any, WNBA teams that would jump at the chance to get her into their starting lineup; come to think of it, I cannot find one other team in the W where Plum would start, excepting maybe Dallas before Diggins returns, assuming they don't pick up another guard (free agent Prince, no great shakes, is better than Plum right now), and no-defense Plum is not Agler's type player. If Jefferson returns to her pre-injury form (figures to improve greatly second year post major knee surgery), Plum will be consigned to backup duty for a sub .500 team.


Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 2:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Why are we still pretending defense is some big deal for point guards? Whalen and Bird couldn't guard anyone these past 2 years and won titles still.

Plum has shown she can handle point guard duties and she's a knockdown shooter. How many players can say the same about their 2nd year in the league?


J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 4:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

OK just for fun 2014 to 2018 (the last 5 years) draft vs 2009 to 2013 (the previous 5 years)

top 15 players

14 to 18 (Don't get too hung up on the order)

Stewart
Wilson
C. Gray
McBride
Deshields
A. Thomas
C. Ogwumike
Loyd
Howard
J. Jones
Plum
Jefferson
C. Williams
Sims
Dolson

9 to 13 (Don't get too hung up on the order)

Griner
EDD
Moore
Cambage
Charles
N. Ogwumike
McCoughtry
Sloot
Diggins
Bonner
Toliver
Hayes
Prince
GloJo
January

(I am sure if someone else made the list it would be in a different order and maybe have some additions and subtractions I just wanted to include enough players for the sake of the overall conversation.)

So I wanted to compare the past 5 years and the previous 5 years with a 15 player draft. it proves two things in my opinion

1. it is really hard to compare players who have been in the league 5 years plus to the newer player for instance if Diggins and Cambage were only judged on their 1st or 2nd year one would be seen as a bust and the other might not ever return. Players like Hayes, Bonner and Toliver wouldn't be the stars we see them as now and players like Prince and January would be considered much better than how we see them now. So it is still too early to judge most of the players on the top list.

2. On the other hand it does kind of make the point for drop off. The bottom list has 7 MVP or near MVP type of players the top list has Stewart and Maybe Wilson, it would be hard to say that even two more will have that near MVP level of success in their future let alone five more (though I guess we can't say that definitively).

(to keep it relevant to the draft thread) If you slide the time scale up a year you could add Ionescu (possibly), Durr, Ogunbowale, McCowan, Brown and Collier to the top list but then Chiney, McBride, Sims, A. Thomas, C. Gray and Dolson class would slide to the bottom list which probably doesn't help the argument.




Last edited by J-Spoon on 03/07/19 4:06 am; edited 1 time in total
PickledGinger



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 4:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

canadaball wrote:

Talk about not seeing the forest b/c of the trees, and how stats can mislead. The UConn team of DT's freshman year, before the injuries to legit All Americans Svet and Shea Ralph(career-ending) might have had the most talent of any team ever. You had Bird, Cash, Jones (Olympians all) plus pros like Tamika Williams and Schumacher. Despite great talent, how could you expect newcomer DT to score lots of points? As with Angel, you choose to focus on a freshman season, when both DT and Angel were on the way to superstardom day 1 sophomore year. Please tell me any similar career paths in the 6 years worth of players from 2017-2023 classes. BTW DT stood out in a draft that included Beard and Whalen.


Your whole schtick is the definition of "irresponsible speculation."

About Angel...I feel like we're NOT focusing on her Freshman season, but rather her lack of obvious star power before college (the most damning of evidence, according to some...). You keep saying these star players were obvious in High School (players graduating college in 2023, whom you are including in your argument, are current high school seniors). Well, not a one of us knew who McCoughtry was in High School. No All-American team selections, averaged 14 ppg as a senior, and if I remember correctly, a ranking in the 50s-60s. She came off them bench in her Freshman season as the 3rd post. In fact, I would argue that her success as a sophomore wing was one of the greatest personal improvements in the HISTORY of WCBB.

You are simultaniously saying "McCoughtry was an obvious star from day one as a sophomore in college" and "none of these High School students have potential to be a star."

Come on, man. Pick a lane.


canadaball



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 8:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PickledGinger wrote:
canadaball wrote:

Talk about not seeing the forest b/c of the trees, and how stats can mislead. The UConn team of DT's freshman year, before the injuries to legit All Americans Svet and Shea Ralph(career-ending) might have had the most talent of any team ever. You had Bird, Cash, Jones (Olympians all) plus pros like Tamika Williams and Schumacher. Despite great talent, how could you expect newcomer DT to score lots of points? As with Angel, you choose to focus on a freshman season, when both DT and Angel were on the way to superstardom day 1 sophomore year. Please tell me any similar career paths in the 6 years worth of players from 2017-2023 classes. BTW DT stood out in a draft that included Beard and Whalen.


Your whole schtick is the definition of "irresponsible speculation."

About Angel...I feel like we're NOT focusing on her Freshman season, but rather her lack of obvious star power before college (the most damning of evidence, according to some...). You keep saying these star players were obvious in High School (players graduating college in 2023, whom you are including in your argument, are current high school seniors). Well, not a one of us knew who McCoughtry was in High School. No All-American team selections, averaged 14 ppg as a senior, and if I remember correctly, a ranking in the 50s-60s. She came off them bench in her Freshman season as the 3rd post. In fact, I would argue that her success as a sophomore wing was one of the greatest personal improvements in the HISTORY of WCBB.

You are simultaniously saying "McCoughtry was an obvious star from day one as a sophomore in college" and "none of these High School students have potential to be a star."

Come on, man. Pick a lane.


I stay away from any discussion of high school players; never see any of them play. My main thrust was looking at the 2 draft classes after Stewart, and the current 4 years of college players. My mistake is that current college freshmen (enter 2018; now 2019) will be in the draft class of 2022; not 2023. The 6 year span should read 2017-2022, and not 2017-2023. Sloppy math by me.
Spoon makes valuable additions to the discussion with the comparative lists, and use of the MVP/near MVP moniker (better than my Mount Rushmore). I would note that the real dropoff starts in the 2017 class, It is a stretch to envision Wilson leapfrogging players like Stewart, Cambage and DelaD (top 3 vote getters....I mean, incredibly, Griner got almost no votes)), but Plum and DeShields have no shot. Yes, players can improve; look at Seattle's Natasha Howard, but tough to reach MVP level b/c the competition becomes so special. Taking even the most optimistic view of all current college players (Sabrina's career=Whalen; Durr=Tiff Hayes etc.), i just cannot imagine any getting into that high MVP strata (for example beating out a healthy Stewart or DelD????), which just further accentuates the declining trend.


pilight



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 9:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

DT was pudgy and slow as a freshperson. UConn mostly used her as a spot shooter. She was basically Kaleena Mosqueda-Lewis. She got in better shape later in her college career, but she carried extra weight all they way into her early pro years.

I focused on freshperson seasons because you said the great ones were apparent at that point in their careers, which is not true. You say you went through the Olympic teams from 2004 on and they were all apparent superstars from their first college season. Never mind that you never saw Yolanda Griffith at Palm Beach Junior College or apparently did not know that freshperson Shannon Johnson didn't even start for a bad South Carolina team. When you're talking about players pegged as superstars their first year of college, you're damn sure not talking about Delisha Milton or Tina Thompson. Even someone like Sylvia Fowles was talked about as someone who could be great, not necessarily someone who would and absolutely not as somebody who already was.

You are projecting, pure and simple.



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Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 9:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Guards don't win MVP in the WNBA. The best players in college are guards. Could it just be that?


canadaball



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 9:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
Guards don't win MVP in the WNBA. The best players in college are guards. Could it just be that?


Cooper (1998), Swoopes (2000, 2002, 2005) and Taurasi (2009)


Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 9:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

canadaball wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
Guards don't win MVP in the WNBA. The best players in college are guards. Could it just be that?


Cooper (1998), Swoopes (2000, 2002, 2005) and Taurasi (2009)

Yes, 3 players total and the last one was 10 years ago. Exactly my point.


canadaball



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 10:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
DT was pudgy and slow as a freshperson. UConn mostly used her as a spot shooter. She was basically Kaleena Mosqueda-Lewis. She got in better shape later in her college career, but she carried extra weight all they way into her early pro years.

I focused on freshperson seasons because you said the great ones were apparent at that point in their careers, which is not true. You say you went through the Olympic teams from 2004 on and they were all apparent superstars from their first college season. Never mind that you never saw Yolanda Griffith at Palm Beach Junior College or apparently did not know that freshperson Shannon Johnson didn't even start for a bad South Carolina team. When you're talking about players pegged as superstars their first year of college, you're damn sure not talking about Delisha Milton or Tina Thompson. Even someone like Sylvia Fowles was talked about as someone who could be great, not necessarily someone who would and absolutely not as somebody who already was.

You are projecting, pure and simple.



If you are going to quote me, please be accurate. I used the phrase "from the go" rather than freshman year. I admit that going way back, Shannon Johnson should join Whalen in a list of Olympians rising from obscurity, which would make 2 such players from a total of 4 Olympic teams. The others you mention go too far back for me to know about their early years, but if your report about DT as a youngster is any indication, I do not feel your eyetesting is reliable. Here is an article from 2001 discussing DT's freshman year at UConn
https://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/14/sports/college-basketball-uconn-s-taurasi-must-learn-quickly.html

Some key quotes:'She's had a great freshman year (Note: this comes from Geno; well known as critical of his younger players). But Diana is a victim of her talent. When you have that much talent, a lot is expected of you. You can't just be average."

"Taurasi's style, raw and unfinished in some areas, includes long, arcing jump shots that stretch the exterior of a defense and hard, quick passes that expose the soft spots of its interior. Bigger than many players, the 6-foot Taurasi has a well-muscled body that sometimes makes contact with opponents for fouls that send messages."
"Taurasi is the sort of athlete who makes an immediate and strong impression on teammates and opponents alike."
"She's got a lot of talent. She's got great ability. She knows how to use her body.''
"Cathy Inglese, the coach of Boston College, said Taurasi is ''a fabulous player who shoots effortlessly.'


Care to revealuate your expectations of the freshman DT? Seems like these quotes got her just right. i think you might be the only person out there who failed to see DT's brilliance "from the go".




Last edited by canadaball on 03/07/19 10:18 am; edited 1 time in total
pilight



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 10:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

canadaball wrote:
pilight wrote:
DT was pudgy and slow as a freshperson. UConn mostly used her as a spot shooter. She was basically Kaleena Mosqueda-Lewis. She got in better shape later in her college career, but she carried extra weight all they way into her early pro years.

I focused on freshperson seasons because you said the great ones were apparent at that point in their careers, which is not true. You say you went through the Olympic teams from 2004 on and they were all apparent superstars from their first college season. Never mind that you never saw Yolanda Griffith at Palm Beach Junior College or apparently did not know that freshperson Shannon Johnson didn't even start for a bad South Carolina team. When you're talking about players pegged as superstars their first year of college, you're damn sure not talking about Delisha Milton or Tina Thompson. Even someone like Sylvia Fowles was talked about as someone who could be great, not necessarily someone who would and absolutely not as somebody who already was.

You are projecting, pure and simple.



If you are going to quote me, please be accurate. I used the phrase "from the go" rather than freshman year. I admit that going way back, Shannon Johnson should join Whalen in a list of Olympians rising from obscurity, which would make 2 such players from a total of 4 Olympic teams. The others you mention go too far back for me to know about their early years, but if your report about DT as a youngster is any indication, I do not feel your eyetesting is reliable. Here is an article from 2001 discussing DT's freshman year at UConn
https://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/14/sports/college-basketball-uconn-s-taurasi-must-learn-quickly.html

Some key quotes:'She's had a great freshman year. But Diana is a victim of her talent. When you have that much talent, a lot is expected of you. You can't just be average."

"Taurasi's style, raw and unfinished in some areas, includes long, arcing jump shots that stretch the exterior of a defense and hard, quick passes that expose the soft spots of its interior. Bigger than many players, the 6-foot Taurasi has a well-muscled body that sometimes makes contact with opponents for fouls that send messages."
"Taurasi is the sort of athlete who makes an immediate and strong impression on teammates and opponents alike."
"She's got a lot of talent. She's got great ability. She knows how to use her body.''
"Cathy Inglese, the coach of Boston College, said Taurasi is ''a fabulous player who shoots effortlessly.'


Care to revealuate your expectations of the freshman DT? Seems like these quotes got her just right.


No. An all time great doesn't lose minutes to the likes of Shea Ralph. She wasn't there yet.



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canadaball



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 10:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

"No. An all time great doesn't lose minutes to the likes of Shea Ralph. She wasn't there yet."

This is a bit bizarre. Despite multiple knee injuries which derailed a pro career, Ralph was team captain; All American, and reigning NCAA championship MVP. DT was great but come on now.


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PostPosted: 03/07/19 10:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Volleyball has always existed as a sport competing with basketball for athletes. What proof is there that we're losing more players to volleyball now than before?


The participation reports from the National Federation of High Schools are clear: Soccer and volleyball participation for girls are steadily rising and have been for the last decade. At the same time, basketball participation has remained flat or declined slightly.

Anecdotally, 20 years ago, almost all high schools in the Bay Area in Northern California had varsity, JV and freshman girls' teams. Now, very few have freshman teams, and some scramble for enough numbers for JV teams.

At the same time, volleyball participation in this area is rising rapidly, as almost all schools have three teams and when I was at Bentley, a small private school with 300 students, it was always a struggle to get a varsity and JV basketball team -- and we had three full volleyball teams.

Of course this is just a small area, and things are different across the country, but the NFHS numbers are solid proof that things have changed significantly. (Note that water polo and lacrosse numbers are also growing rapidly as well ...)



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 11:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

canadaball wrote:
"No. An all time great doesn't lose minutes to the likes of Shea Ralph. She wasn't there yet."

This is a bit bizarre. Despite multiple knee injuries which derailed a pro career, Ralph was team captain; All American, and reigning NCAA championship MVP. DT was great but come on now.


So you're saying Shea Ralph should play over an All Time great?



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PostPosted: 03/07/19 11:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
canadaball wrote:
"No. An all time great doesn't lose minutes to the likes of Shea Ralph. She wasn't there yet."

This is a bit bizarre. Despite multiple knee injuries which derailed a pro career, Ralph was team captain; All American, and reigning NCAA championship MVP. DT was great but come on now.


So you're saying Shea Ralph should play over an All Time great?


I am saying that no freshman (article aptly describes her as tremendously talented, but raw) is going to play over a returning All American and championship MVP. You have been around sports long enough to know the validity of this statement.


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PostPosted: 03/07/19 11:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

canadaball wrote:
pilight wrote:
canadaball wrote:
"No. An all time great doesn't lose minutes to the likes of Shea Ralph. She wasn't there yet."

This is a bit bizarre. Despite multiple knee injuries which derailed a pro career, Ralph was team captain; All American, and reigning NCAA championship MVP. DT was great but come on now.


So you're saying Shea Ralph should play over an All Time great?


I am saying that no freshman (article aptly describes her as tremendously talented, but raw) is going to play over a returning All American and championship MVP. You have been around sports long enough to know the validity of this statement.


Talented and raw is a good description. Plenty of other players have come into college that way and not become All Time greats. You really can't tell that early.



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PostPosted: 03/08/19 1:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
canadaball wrote:
please name me one player in classes 1917-1923 (that is a 6 year period with thousands of players) who is of the quality of so many Hall of Famers like Swoopes, Leslie, Parker, DelaD, DT, Griner, Catchings, Maya, Fowles, Stewie and on and on.

I couldn't name you one player from that period period, let alone a good one.


you all are making great fun of my era! I am devastated. Evil or Very Mad



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 03/08/19 9:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
canadaball wrote:
please name me one player in classes 1917-1923 (that is a 6 year period with thousands of players) who is of the quality of so many Hall of Famers like Swoopes, Leslie, Parker, DelaD, DT, Griner, Catchings, Maya, Fowles, Stewie and on and on.

I couldn't name you one player from that period period, let alone a good one.


you all are making great fun of my era! I am devastated. Evil or Very Mad


That would make you like 120 years old. Geez Myrtle, are you a vampire or something?



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