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Defending The Donald

 
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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 19911



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PostPosted: 01/21/19 7:40 pm    ::: Defending The Donald Reply Reply with quote

I can't believe I didn't already start a thread with this title but I went searching for it and I can't find it. Anyway. No time like the present as I always say.

So let's talk about the shutdown... choosing a different perspective.

So Trump said, Gimme my 5.7 billion for a wall or I'll shut down the government.

And the Dems said, Then a shutdown there will be.

Really? That was quick! lol. Why? Why would the Democrats say hell yeah and take the other side in a government shutdown for the reason of opposing the president over 5.7 billion dollars for a border wall?

So I'm not trying to debate or argue, really. I'm just saying that, after six or so weeks of a government shutdown, it seems to me that somewhere, someplace, some people (other than those who are blinkered by their support for Trump) might introduce the topic of what are the Democrats exactly doing here.

Because absolutely everything we've heard in the media has taken Donald Trump up on his claiming of ownership of any pending shutdown and has pretty much only discussed this last six weeks from a standpoint of this is all 100% Trump and Trump's fault, Trump's doing, Trump, Trump, Trump.

Is this something we can talk about here? I guess I'll find out.

So let's just go there for a second. Why would the Democrats take the other side in a government shutdown standoff lasting over a month that is seeing profound and calamitous effects on the lives of probably millions of Americans at this point. The ramifications of a shutdown lasting even a few days are pretty impressive. This has racked up numbers, I mean, if you're just talking about dollars and not people's lives, that are going to very hard to justify from either side. That pain is going to last and eventually the attention IS going to turn towards the Democrats for their part.

Why? They don't care about the money, the 5.7 billion. We're going to run an over 4 trillion dollar budget this year. So it's not the money and it's not what the money COULD buy. lol. The money wouldn't go towards whatever anyone might claim it could be better used for and if this government was going to allocate money for those reasons they will do so with or without this 5.7 billion being in the kitty.

This is an egregious hardship on so many federal workers and has led to lost revenue in many areas of national parks and monuments, etc. And speaking of national parks and monuments, there's been widespread destruction at Joshua Tree here in California. EPIC destruction as a result of no supervision being on their posts in the park.

The strain this shutdown has placed on our country and its people and services and safety demands, I'm sorry, that both sides justify their reasons.

Why put the United States of America and its people and its economy through this over an argument about 5.7 billion for increased border security and, maybe more to the obscure policy point, of how that money would be spent?

I have my theories, of course, but I'm interested in what people here who we know to be without a doubt on board with the Democrats and anything that opposes Trump would have to say to the question of why is it THAT worth it to the Democrats? Why would they participate in something this outlandish and destructive?



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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 58703
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 01/21/19 8:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Demos knew the press would be overwhelmingly against Trump, and his claiming ownership of it would prevent much argument the other way. The Demos and Repubs both care more about winning than governing, and this was an easy win for the Demos.



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insidewinder



Joined: 19 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: 01/21/19 10:33 pm    ::: Also Reply Reply with quote

If they let Trump shut down the government to get his way to build a wall that most Americans do not want, he will keep taking hostages like that. So they can't and shouldn't let him do it. He had two years of his own party controlling Congress. If he really wanted a wall that was the time to play hardball, not now. He just wants a fight. Can't cave to that.


justintyme



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 7297
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PostPosted: 01/21/19 11:12 pm    ::: Re: Also Reply Reply with quote

insidewinder wrote:
If they let Trump shut down the government to get his way to build a wall that most Americans do not want, he will keep taking hostages like that. So they can't and shouldn't let him do it. He had two years of his own party controlling Congress. If he really wanted a wall that was the time to play hardball, not now. He just wants a fight. Can't cave to that.

That's it exactly. It's basically the same philosophy as the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" one. You have a president who basically said "give me what I want or I burn the whole thing down". The only thing stopping him from doing it again and again, is proving that it won't work. Because the moment he decides that this is a winning strategy, he will go back to that well over and over again. And anyone who has been paying attention knows this to be true.

But it is also more than that. You have to remember how Trump opened this whole thing up. He turned it into a spectacle that basically backed Schumer and Pelosi into a corner. There were numerous Republican operatives noting that had they been in charge from the beginning, there would have been a deal for $3 Billion-ish for border security and no shutdown before this even started. But Trump was less concerned with a deal than "winning" and "sticking it to the libs".

Now there is very little the Democrats can do as a very, very large portion of their base sees the wall as a literal "monument to racism". That is not something you can capitulate on, unless you are getting blasted by the rest of the population. But as long as the country blames Trump and the GOP, and the wall remains incredibly unpopular amongst people even outside of the base, there is no way the Democrats can or will cave.

Remember, the Democrats just won 40 seats in a historic midterm election and in so doing made a ton of promises, one of which was to oppose this wall. They are not wrong that they are acting on a pretty strong mandate at this moment.



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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 01/21/19 11:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A wall is critical to Trump's chances in 2020 (which he somehow went almost two years without realizing). In addition, Trump is the one taking the hit regarding the shutdown, not just in the media but his approval ratings are down and disapproval rating up since the shutdown (although a recent poll actually showed Hispanic approval went up). And finally, it seems most Americans don't want a wall - ILLEGAL immigration and an ILLEGAL workforce appear to be favored by a majority of Americans (no one likes it more than rich Republicans - think about that Democrats). If the public was in favor of a wall, the Democrats wouldn't be fighting it.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 01/22/19 12:19 am    ::: Re: Also Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
insidewinder wrote:
If they let Trump shut down the government to get his way to build a wall that most Americans do not want, he will keep taking hostages like that. So they can't and shouldn't let him do it. He had two years of his own party controlling Congress. If he really wanted a wall that was the time to play hardball, not now. He just wants a fight. Can't cave to that.

That's it exactly. It's basically the same philosophy as the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" one. You have a president who basically said "give me what I want or I burn the whole thing down". The only thing stopping him from doing it again and again, is proving that it won't work. Because the moment he decides that this is a winning strategy, he will go back to that well over and over again. And anyone who has been paying attention knows this to be true.


All the above: Classic case of the impulsive bully *believing* he has all the support he needs, making blustery demands, and then....only bullying harder when he DOESN'T get it. This is where a beady little wench like Pelosi demonstrates how wisdom/cleverness/experience/ability to see the Big Picture/and being savvy enough to manipulate your caucus is a Royal Flush to his pair o' deuces. That most unfortunate part is that he refuses to resume government openings, when these things could be negotiated now, and border security later. Hardworking, helpless people are the ones suffering....neither Nancy, Mitch nor Donald have to think about rent.



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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 01/22/19 1:04 am    ::: Re: Also Reply Reply with quote

Howie wrote:
That most unfortunate part is that he refuses to resume government openings when these things could be negotiated now, and border security later. Hardworking, helpless people are the ones suffering....neither Nancy, Mitch nor Donald have to think about rent.


Trump can't open the government because then the answer on the wall is a 100% guaranteed no. Pelosi and Schumer have closed the door on a wall by calling it immoral, etc. With the government "closed" he has a sliver of a chance of getting a wall since there are negative consequences occurring from the Democrats opposing it. But they are so dug in on "him not getting his wall" that it would be tough to come up with a bargaining chip that would satisfy them. Universal healthcare and amnesty for every single illegal alien and all future illegal aliens would probably not do it.




Last edited by tfan on 01/23/19 4:04 am; edited 2 times in total
cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 11672
Location: In a world where a dbag like Trump isn't potus.


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PostPosted: 01/22/19 9:39 am    ::: Re: Also Reply Reply with quote

What a waste of a thread.



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