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tfan



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PostPosted: 03/31/20 1:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
The reason they didn't want Bernie is that they don't believe he can win. They don't believe that when it is all said and done, with the electoral college being what it is, that someone who outright calls himself a socialist can win in the states he would need to to win the presidency.


I disagree. Bernie polled well against Trump in 2016 and 2020. Swing states are not red states. Free health care and bringing manufacturing back (if Bernie still talks about that as he did in 2016) should resonate more than how he labels himself.

I think the donor class and the corporate media are down on Sanders because they don’t like his policies (which are all for the people at the other end of the pyramid - not where they want the focus) and that he isn’t someone they can buy or manipulate as easily as the others.


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PostPosted: 03/31/20 6:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
justintyme wrote:
The reason they didn't want Bernie is that they don't believe he can win. They don't believe that when it is all said and done, with the electoral college being what it is, that someone who outright calls himself a socialist can win in the states he would need to to win the presidency.


I disagree. Bernie polled well against Trump in 2016 and 2020. Swing states are not red states. Free health care and bringing manufacturing back (if Bernie still talks about that as he did in 2016) should resonate more than how he labels himself.

I think the donor class and the corporate media are down on Sanders because they don’t like his policies (which are all for the people at the other end of the pyramid - not where they want the focus) and that he isn’t someone they can buy or manipulate as easily as the others.


This ^^^^^

As jammerbirdi said, the power elite prefers a 2nd Trump term to a 1st of Sanders or Warren.



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mercfan3



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PostPosted: 03/31/20 8:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
justintyme wrote:
The reason they didn't want Bernie is that they don't believe he can win. They don't believe that when it is all said and done, with the electoral college being what it is, that someone who outright calls himself a socialist can win in the states he would need to to win the presidency.


I disagree. Bernie polled well against Trump in 2016 and 2020. Swing states are not red states. Free health care and bringing manufacturing back (if Bernie still talks about that as he did in 2016) should resonate more than how he labels himself.

I think the donor class and the corporate media are down on Sanders because they don’t like his policies (which are all for the people at the other end of the pyramid - not where they want the focus) and that he isn’t someone they can buy or manipulate as easily as the others.


Hillary polled well too. Biden is polling well against him right now.

It had nothing to do with the DNC not wanting Bernie to win - and everything to do with the voters not wanting Bernie to win.

Bernie tried to win by diluting black Americans political power in the primary. Joe Biden was the only candidate who ever had their support. He was going to win - unless enough candidates stayed in to take other votes. Bernie only ever really had 30% of the vote. That shouldn't win a primary.


I don't know why Sanders supporters don't get this. He doesn't win because not enough voters want him to win. Laughing

Likewise, with the exception of Pete - no one has actually competed against Sanders. Trump would have. And there is a lot of oppo against him.

edit: Sanders has outspent Biden 4 to 1. He has the most money this primary. He also has a superpac. And the media rarely goes negative on him. He has also been campaigning for five years. At what point does Sanders get blamed for Sanders' loss.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 03/31/20 9:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

*duplicate*




Last edited by tfan on 03/31/20 9:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
tfan



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PostPosted: 03/31/20 9:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
tfan wrote:
justintyme wrote:
The reason they didn't want Bernie is that they don't believe he can win. They don't believe that when it is all said and done, with the electoral college being what it is, that someone who outright calls himself a socialist can win in the states he would need to to win the presidency.


I disagree. Bernie polled well against Trump in 2016 and 2020. Swing states are not red states. Free health care and bringing manufacturing back (if Bernie still talks about that as he did in 2016) should resonate more than how he labels himself.

I think the donor class and the corporate media are down on Sanders because they don’t like his policies (which are all for the people at the other end of the pyramid - not where they want the focus) and that he isn’t someone they can buy or manipulate as easily as the others.


Hillary polled well too. Biden is polling well against him right now.


The corporate candidates polling well doesn't change Sanders polling well.


Quote:
It had nothing to do with the DNC not wanting Bernie to win - and everything to do with the voters not wanting Bernie to win.


We are talking about why the DNC, corporate media and donor class don't like Sanders. But the fact that they didn't has to have some effect on the voters as they have some control on the messaging.

Quote:
Bernie tried to win by diluting black Americans political power in the primary. Joe Biden was the only candidate who ever had their support. He was going to win - unless enough candidates stayed in to take other votes. Bernie only ever really had 30% of the vote. That shouldn't win a primary.


Older black people in a red state voting against their interest because Biden was a black president's VP wouldn't be why the donor class and their people are against Sanders. They don't like Sanders because he doesn't care about the donor class. He isn't going to work for the donor class and against the people. He won't support TPP and NAFTA and give out special visas to attack wages in targeted areas or maintain historicaly low taxes for the rich.

Quote:
I don't know why Sanders supporters don't get this. He doesn't win because not enough voters want him to win. Laughing

Likewise, with the exception of Pete - no one has actually competed against Sanders. Trump would have. And there is a lot of oppo against him.

edit: Sanders has outspent Biden 4 to 1. He has the most money this primary. He also has a superpac. And the media rarely goes negative on him. He has also been campaigning for five years. At what point does Sanders get blamed for Sanders' loss.


I believe we were talking about why the corporate media and the donor class don't support Sanders, not why working class Democrats support the donor class candidates.

By the way, you said that Sanders is not anti-establishment because he is an old white male who has been in Washington for 30 years. And at the same time you derisively label his policies as "everybody gets a pony", which is an anti-establishment position. The establishment also hates Sanders for his policies and attitude towards donor class rule.




Last edited by tfan on 03/31/20 9:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
justintyme



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PostPosted: 03/31/20 10:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Those polls are basically meaningless until the two candidates are actually running head-to-head.

And, most importantly, they are popular vote polls.

For instance, Bernie cannot win Florida. It is a non-starter. Too many older Cubans that will never, ever, EVER, vote for a socialist (no matter the actual ideological differences between a democratic socialist and a communist) because of Castro.

And those policies people keep saying poll well? They don't. Not really. Yes, things like single-payer healthcare poll well initially. People like it in broad strokes and see the flaws in the current system. They like the idea of more people being covered.

But once they start getting polled on the nitty-gritty of it, that support plummets. For instance, people don't want to be forced to give up their current insurance. Especially people who have good insurance at the moment--you know people like Union workers in Pennsylvania and Michigan, the people Sanders will 100% need to have and will not be able to lose a single vote of if he wants to win. It also starts to poll less well when people are asked of they are willing to move to a system where people have to wait longer for non-emergent surgeries. Like spinal surgery or heart valve replacements or knee replacements, etc.

There is a reason why Warren actually started backing away from going all-in on the Medicare-for-all plan. She understood that while it may be the best policy, it is not actually as popular a policy as its supporters make out. And once you have to go head-to-head on the general election the less wiggle room you've given yourself on it's less popular aspects the more you may have doomed the country to 4 more years of Trump. But of course that made Warren "not a true progressive" to the Bernie-or-bust people instead of the progressive candidate who actually understood how to win in the general.

And I say all this as someone who actually likes Sanders. Whose political ideology is much closer to Sanders than it is Biden's. Who would love to see a progressive in the White House. But I also understand reality, and refuse to become a progressive version of Trump where just because I want something to be true I believe it to be true.

The entire idea about how Sanders beats Trump rests on this idea that he excites these young people who never vote so much that they actually vote. And in a strictly-by-the-numbers as they are on paper it could happen in some theoretical election. But it's not going to. Because he shrinks the base at the other end, losing moderate Democrats for whom he is too radical, the numbers of those never-voters he needs to draw are immense. And that's just not going to happen at that level. And the primaries prove it. If he really did excite those voters that much, he would be drawing them and easily taking down a pretty underwhelming candidate in Biden right now.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 04/01/20 6:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Those polls are basically meaningless until the two candidates are actually running head-to-head.

And, most importantly, they are popular vote polls.


It is unfortunate that we have national polls and an electoral college vote which makes the national poll meaningless.

Quote:
For instance, Bernie cannot win Florida. It is a non-starter. Too many older Cubans that will never, ever, EVER, vote for a socialist (no matter the actual ideological differences between a democratic socialist and a communist) because of Castro.


I would like to know why Sanders decided to label himself that way and yet not advocate socialism. Even if his ultimate goal is a disbanding of private ownership of the means of production as the Democratic Socialist party advocates on their website - but says it will have to wait - much easier to get elected without labeling yourself in a way that old Cubans and Fox News pundits can get worked up about.

Quote:
But once they start getting polled on the nitty-gritty of it, that support plummets. For instance, people don't want to be forced to give up their current insurance. Especially people who have good insurance at the moment--you know people like Union workers in Pennsylvania and Michigan, the people Sanders will 100% need to have and will not be able to lose a single vote of if he wants to win.

It also starts to poll less well when people are asked of they are willing to move to a system where people have to wait longer for non-emergent surgeries. Like spinal surgery or heart valve replacements or knee replacements, etc.


I don’t think it can be stated how much it will cost someone versus the current or how effective the service will be. Anyone polling on “how it will be” is doing a poll designed to influence the results.

Quote:
There is a reason why Warren actually started backing away from going all-in on the Medicare-for-all plan. She understood that while it may be the best policy, it is not actually as popular a policy as its supporters make out. And once you have to go head-to-head on the general election the less wiggle room you've given yourself on it's less popular aspects the more you may have doomed the country to 4 more years of Trump. But of course that made Warren "not a true progressive" to the Bernie-or-bust people instead of the progressive candidate who actually understood how to win in the general.



Warren was running into resistance on Medicare for all from the elite. I remember Chris Mathews on the allegedly left MSNBC badgering her repeatedly to say that taxes would go up (“why can’t you just say that”). The point Warren was making is that employer contributions and employee deductions and co-pays would go away to offset the taxes. I saw David Axelrod say on CNN that back when Warren was near the front of the pack that there was a belief by some of the elite (my word) that Warren was going to (paraphrasing) be someone who they could influence and who would (or did) have different back room positions than public positions.


Sander’s positions don’t seem radical to me, but the Democratic Party has moved to the right (despite Republican politicians and pundits constantly saying how radically it has moved left) I was surprised to see card-carrying Democrats in 2016 being very dismissive of Sanders and complaining not about electability, but about not wanting to have to pay any extra taxes due to his proposals. So Sanders does face the issue that the segment he wants to help doesn’t vote as much and the segment he doesn’t want to help (they don’t need it) isn’t fired up to help the people who need it. I guess there is a reason that even Sanders speech writers will remove “poor” from their speeches. Most politicians will only say “middle class” but I think Sanders will say “working class”, although I have heard him do the “only mention middle class” thing. I did read an article once that said that there are a lot of people who aren’t middle class who still consider themselves that, which helps keep “poor” or “lower class” out of political speeches.




Last edited by tfan on 04/01/20 6:35 pm; edited 11 times in total
Howee



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PostPosted: 04/02/20 4:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Our only real hope is that Biden accepts the nomination and then is told to step down due to the allegations against him and they replace him with one of the governors making a name for themselves with their competence right now.


Yessss! I've been thinking that very thing my self!! "MC* (the) Hammer", maybe? (think: NY)



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toad455



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 10:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sanders has ended his campaign.




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mercfan3



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 11:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

He really needed to do that after what happened in Wisconsin. Republicans aren't ever going to do the right thing. Sanders staying in the race was just putting people at risk.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 12:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
Sanders staying in the race was just putting people at risk.


Yeah, right. Him not being president puts a lot more people at risk.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 12:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
He really needed to do that after what happened in Wisconsin. Republicans aren't ever going to do the right thing. Sanders staying in the race was just putting people at risk.


There were a lot more - and frankly, a lot more important - races on the ballot yesterday than the Democratic primary.


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PostPosted: 04/08/20 12:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
Sanders staying in the race was just putting people at risk.


Yeah, right. Him not being president puts a lot more people at risk.


He wasn't going to be president regardless of whether he stayed in the race



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 2:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Shades wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
Sanders staying in the race was just putting people at risk.


Yeah, right. Him not being president puts a lot more people at risk.


He wasn't going to be president regardless of whether he stayed in the race


I don’t trust your statement on this.



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cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 2:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
He really needed to do that after what happened in Wisconsin. Republicans aren't ever going to do the right thing. Sanders staying in the race was just putting people at risk.



Is there nothing Bernie won't be blamed for? smh.


Expect if Trump is re-elected, we will hear: "if Bernie dropped out after South Carolina, Biden would have won! Those goddamn bernie bros!" Laughing



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 3:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If Biden would’ve dropped out after his incredibly slow start, I think everybody would be feeling a lot better about Trump being gone in January.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 3:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
Those goddamn bernie bros!" Laughing

Well, to be fair, if someone who would have voted for Bernie doesn't vote for Biden and Trump is re-elected, they would, in fact, share some amount of the responsibility for it happening.

God knows my first choice candidate isn't out there to vote for, but I sure as hell am going to do everything humanly and legally permitted to make sure Trump is a one term president. Going forward there is only one question I will ask to all choices: does this make it more or less likely that Trump will be re-elected. If it's more likely, I don't do it; if it's less, then I do.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 3:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
If Biden would’ve dropped out after his incredibly slow start, I think everybody would be feeling a lot better about Trump being gone in January.

While I absolutely agree with you as far as we'd be better off with another candidate, it also wasn't ever going to happen. From the beginning Biden has lead the nation wide polling averages, and Nate Silver kept pointing out that all of Biden's best states didn't come until Super Tuesday or later so not to read too much into the early state results. Those results helped close the gaps some at times, but never so much that he would have been thinking of dropping. Only way he would have dropped was to have a disastrous Super Tuesday and lose places like South Carolina.



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mercfan3



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 4:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
He really needed to do that after what happened in Wisconsin. Republicans aren't ever going to do the right thing. Sanders staying in the race was just putting people at risk.



Is there nothing Bernie won't be blamed for? smh.


Expect if Trump is re-elected, we will hear: "if Bernie dropped out after South Carolina, Biden would have won! Those goddamn bernie bros!" Laughing


Bernie still being in the primary meant people going out to vote for the primary in large numbers.

He's no longer on the ballot, so a significant portion of people won't be leaving their house to vote.

How is that even debatable?

Regardless, he was essentially mathematically eliminated. Why still be running against the presumptive nominee? He did a lot of damage last time.



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mercfan3



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 4:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
Shades wrote:
If Biden would’ve dropped out after his incredibly slow start, I think everybody would be feeling a lot better about Trump being gone in January.

While I absolutely agree with you as far as we'd be better off with another candidate, it also wasn't ever going to happen. From the beginning Biden has lead the nation wide polling averages, and Nate Silver kept pointing out that all of Biden's best states didn't come until Super Tuesday or later so not to read too much into the early state results. Those results helped close the gaps some at times, but never so much that he would have been thinking of dropping. Only way he would have dropped was to have a disastrous Super Tuesday and lose places like South Carolina.


No one was ever able to crack Biden's hold on the core of the Democratic Party.

It sucks for those of us who didn't want him - but it's the truth.

This should be our last baby boomer President though. Should be. Laughing Laughing



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 4:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Shades wrote:
If Biden would’ve dropped out after his incredibly slow start, I think everybody would be feeling a lot better about Trump being gone in January.

While I absolutely agree with you as far as we'd be better off with another candidate, it also wasn't ever going to happen. From the beginning Biden has lead the nation wide polling averages, and Nate Silver kept pointing out that all of Biden's best states didn't come until Super Tuesday or later so not to read too much into the early state results. Those results helped close the gaps some at times, but never so much that he would have been thinking of dropping. Only way he would have dropped was to have a disastrous Super Tuesday and lose places like South Carolina.


No one was ever able to crack Biden's hold on the core of the Democratic Party.

It sucks for those of us who didn't want him - but it's the truth.

This should be our last baby boomer President though. Should be. Laughing Laughing


Biden's not even young enough to be a baby boomer.


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PostPosted: 04/08/20 6:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Shades wrote:
If Biden would’ve dropped out after his incredibly slow start, I think everybody would be feeling a lot better about Trump being gone in January.

While I absolutely agree with you as far as we'd be better off with another candidate, it also wasn't ever going to happen. From the beginning Biden has lead the nation wide polling averages, and Nate Silver kept pointing out that all of Biden's best states didn't come until Super Tuesday or later so not to read too much into the early state results. Those results helped close the gaps some at times, but never so much that he would have been thinking of dropping. Only way he would have dropped was to have a disastrous Super Tuesday and lose places like South Carolina.


No one was ever able to crack Biden's hold on the core of the Democratic Party.

It sucks for those of us who didn't want him - but it's the truth.

This should be our last baby boomer President though. Should be. Laughing Laughing


Yeah. Us baby boomers were hippies. You should be so lucky as to have me as your president. Cool



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mercfan3



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 6:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
justintyme wrote:
Shades wrote:
If Biden would’ve dropped out after his incredibly slow start, I think everybody would be feeling a lot better about Trump being gone in January.

While I absolutely agree with you as far as we'd be better off with another candidate, it also wasn't ever going to happen. From the beginning Biden has lead the nation wide polling averages, and Nate Silver kept pointing out that all of Biden's best states didn't come until Super Tuesday or later so not to read too much into the early state results. Those results helped close the gaps some at times, but never so much that he would have been thinking of dropping. Only way he would have dropped was to have a disastrous Super Tuesday and lose places like South Carolina.


No one was ever able to crack Biden's hold on the core of the Democratic Party.

It sucks for those of us who didn't want him - but it's the truth.

This should be our last baby boomer President though. Should be. Laughing Laughing


Biden's not even young enough to be a baby boomer.


Laughing

Fun Fact, Bill Clinton was finishing his last year of his presidency 20 years ago.

He's younger than Joe Biden by four years.



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cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 6:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
mercfan3 wrote:
He really needed to do that after what happened in Wisconsin. Republicans aren't ever going to do the right thing. Sanders staying in the race was just putting people at risk.



Is there nothing Bernie won't be blamed for? smh.


Expect if Trump is re-elected, we will hear: "if Bernie dropped out after South Carolina, Biden would have won! Those goddamn bernie bros!" Laughing


Bernie still being in the primary meant people going out to vote for the primary in large numbers.

He's no longer on the ballot, so a significant portion of people won't be leaving their house to vote.

How is that even debatable?

Regardless, he was essentially mathematically eliminated. Why still be running against the presumptive nominee? He did a lot of damage last time



Yeah, 40 or so events for Hillary. Terrible, terrible Bernie.

Did you see how CNN framed his withdrawal speech today? It wasn't nice enough, they said. Didn't give much to Biden.

Bernie called Biden a "very decent man". Still, NOT enough. Never enough.

How long did HRC stay in the 2008 primary?

The hatred for the only major candidate who actually wants to drain the DC swamp, insure everyone, increase taxes on the hyper-wealthy, ensure no more voter fuckery, defend Choice, clean the environment, invest in green industries etc etc etc,..... and the people MOST fucked-over by the current system, i.e. WOC, blow him off and support a Corp Dem hack.

I'm always amazed by it.



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PostPosted: 04/08/20 7:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
Regardless, he was essentially mathematically eliminated. Why still be running against the presumptive nominee? He did a lot of damage last time.


Nah. I can't buy that one at all. Hillary earned over 3 million more votes than Don the Con. That was *probably* helped by Bernie's support, after the convention. She DIDN'T win the electoral college. THAT'S on her, and her cavalier attitude towards various demographics in the key battleground states. She took way too much for granted, and damaged herself and her campaign that way.



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