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cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12073
Location: In a world where a dbag like Trump isn't potus.


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PostPosted: 02/20/19 12:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
The trends of the Obama recovery continue. Thanks for the proof. Laughing


CT, yer teasing the trolls again! Razz


I don't understand how the Obama economy is described as "failed", when the indicators, as shown by SQB's graphs, indicate otherwise

I realize Trump probably uttered/tweeted that lie 10,000 times.



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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 02/20/19 12:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
Howee wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
The trends of the Obama recovery continue. Thanks for the proof. Laughing


CT, yer teasing the trolls again! Razz


I don't understand how the Obama economy is described as "failed", when the indicators, as shown by SQB's graphs, indicate otherwise

I realize Trump probably uttered/tweeted that lie 10,000 times.


The same way people claim Trump has hurt the economy when the facts show otherwise...



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Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 02/20/19 1:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="630" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tufycpYHF98" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



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Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12073
Location: In a world where a dbag like Trump isn't potus.


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PostPosted: 02/20/19 1:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
Howee wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
The trends of the Obama recovery continue. Thanks for the proof. Laughing


CT, yer teasing the trolls again! Razz


I don't understand how the Obama economy is described as "failed", when the indicators, as shown by SQB's graphs, indicate otherwise

I realize Trump probably uttered/tweeted that lie 10,000 times.


The same way people claim Trump has hurt the economy when the facts show otherwise...


Are "hurt" and "failed" equal adjectives?



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Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 02/20/19 1:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="630" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Yes6hFVzqrI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



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Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
Shades



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PostPosted: 02/20/19 1:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="630" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LS91yxq7aqc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



_________________
Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12073
Location: In a world where a dbag like Trump isn't potus.


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PostPosted: 02/20/19 4:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
pilight wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
Howee wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
The trends of the Obama recovery continue. Thanks for the proof. Laughing


CT, yer teasing the trolls again! Razz


I don't understand how the Obama economy is described as "failed", when the indicators, as shown by SQB's graphs, indicate otherwise

I realize Trump probably uttered/tweeted that lie 10,000 times.


The same way people claim Trump has hurt the economy when the facts show otherwise...


Are "hurt" and "failed" equal adjectives?


...and the answer is no.

Wink



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Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 02/20/19 5:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
The same way people claim Trump has hurt the economy when the facts show otherwise...


I dunno who claims that (credible sources?) But I've heard some express concern that long-term prospects may be hindered....also speculation--no crystal balls for that.

I haven't seen anything to make me think he's (currently) hurting the economy, but I've repeatedly seen reliable economists explain how he's just expanding on an already-improved economy.

jammerbirdi wrote:
Most people don't live on the border. They don't live the reality of illegal immigration. So they have to take [other] people's word for it.

Uh, this would be most of you guys.....What you need, and aren't getting, is someone who is willing to tell you the truth. And other than me and tfan, good luck finding your way out of these big woods.

......But God help you if you think what you need to know about this complicated issue is what you can learn from CNN.


Now, this is patently, unfairly presumptive. Yes, *I* don't live in California. I don't live near an international border. But--like many here--I don't limit my perspectives on immigration to 2 posters here.

My go-to media news source: PBS. Just ONE story that flies in the face of Trump's Wall-ergate is how, at his last rally there, THE MAYOR of El Paso decried the need for more wall, etc. No, he's not in California, but his perspective is infinitely more valid than a Reb's poster, imo. Likewise, he denounced the myth that "it's getting worse, to the point of an emergency". HE knows more about it THAN TRUMP.

I KNOW PEOPLE. Who live near the border. An FBI-employed nephew in San Antonio. Friend's kids working on border patrol in Tucson. I also have a friend who lives in Ft. Worth, and he's bitterly anti-immigration. Why? Cuz Ft. Worth is a 'sanctuary city'. His elderly mom was robbed at gunpoint, house ransacked by illegals. 3 times, he's been the victim of hit-and-run drivers, illegals who simply ran away from the scene of the accident.

Knowing what I know (in my limited PA enclave, where we DO have some 'illegals', but not enough to alter our lives), I'd be the last to say we don't need immigration REFORM.

But to a person, the people I know with first hand experience would NOT TELL YOU THIS IS A NEW WAVE OF AN UNPRECEDENTED CRISIS. Like El Paso's mayor: things are currently BETTER than they have been.

Therein lies my problem with all of this: TRUMP IS PUSHING THIS "HORRBLE-CRISIS-N-WE'RE-ALL-GONNA-DIE" narrative FOR THE SAKE OF HIS 2020 CAMPAIGN. This stokes Fear, and Fear results in cases like the girl wearing a "Puerto Rico" t-shirt being screamed at to 'go home' in Chicago....a minor-but-telling ripple effect of The Hysteria he invokes.

Immigration IS a problem. BUT IT'S NOT A "NEW, NEVER-BEFORE SEEN CRISIS-LEVEL" problem that requires the strong dictatorsh...errr....leadership of Trump. It needs Rational, Sensible minds to come up with Rational, Sensible SOLUTIONS.



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Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 02/20/19 5:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Immigration IS a problem.


I think you need to watch the last video I posted for a different perspective. It’s only 3 minutes long.



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Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 02/20/19 5:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
His elderly mom was robbed at gunpoint, house ransacked by illegals. 3 times, he's been the victim of hit-and-run drivers, illegals who simply ran away from the scene of the accident.


How did they get caught?



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jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 02/20/19 7:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm sorry. Laughing First, I have to chuckle for about ten hours. Gimme a minute.



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 12366
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 02/20/19 9:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Howee wrote:
Immigration IS a problem.

I think you need to watch the last video I posted for a different perspective. It’s only 3 minutes long.

I meant to imply ILLEGAL immigration. And even if that has some economic upside, there are still many obvious problems that go with illegal immigration. But nothing that constitutes a hellish new crisis.

pilight wrote:
Howee wrote:
His elderly mom was robbed at gunpoint, house ransacked by illegals. 3 times, he's been the victim of hit-and-run drivers, illegals who simply ran away from the scene of the accident.

How did they get caught?

Apparently they were (very drunk) neighborhood locals, and not hard to track down.



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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 59978
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 02/20/19 9:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
pilight wrote:
Howee wrote:
His elderly mom was robbed at gunpoint, house ransacked by illegals. 3 times, he's been the victim of hit-and-run drivers, illegals who simply ran away from the scene of the accident.

How did they get caught?

Apparently they were (very drunk) neighborhood locals, and not hard to track down.


I meant the hit & run drivers

If they're locals he knows are illegals, why didn't he report them to the feds?



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tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 02/20/19 9:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
tfan wrote:
But no one yet says "no significant illegal economic migration occurs across the southern border and no one expects it to ever occur again"


Because nobody cares about that. StoningtonQB showed above that it doesn't hurt the economy. Unemployment levels are at record lows. The only reason people are concerned about border crossings is race baiting fairytales about crime.


Low unemployment is good - and Trump and the elite are using it to justify their favorite solution - more immigration! But unemployment is only one measure of how workers are doing. And unemployment doesn't capture under-employment. People working part-time are considered employed for the purpose of unemployment data, even if they want to work full time. And unemployment won't reflect someone working a minimum wage job who used to make $30 an hour before their job was moved to China. Unemployment also won't capture older workers who weren't ready to retire but couldn't get the traditional "end of career" jobs like janitor or security guard and have given up. I read an analysis that said the labor participation rate has dropped more than just aging and retiring baby boomers would account for.

Are blue collar wages at record inflation-adjusted highs? Don't believe so, particularly for the lowest educated and skilled - those that compete the most with the ILLEGAL aliens. Blue collar wages have lagged behind the white collar and managerial wages. I saw an article a few years ago that said USA male manufacturing wages peaked in the early 1970s. That is reflected in this graph that is too big to include:

https://anticap.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/fig2_prodhhincome.jpg

Would wages for blue-collar workers be higher if we got rid of our ILLEGAL workforce which works for ILLEGAL wages and under ILLEGAL working conditions? I don't see how it could be argued that they wouldn't. The first thing people say when you talk about ending illegal immigration is "no American will do those jobs". But sometimes they will acknowledge Americans will do the jobs - but the wages would have to rise to levels they don't want to pay. I would imagine one of the bases for having immigration quotas is to protect American workers. As Bernie Sanders pointed out, open borders is a "Koch brothers dream" for the way it would depress wages. It is just implicit in the whole illegal workforce deal - with the wages are lower. If not, then the rationale for having them goes out the window.

I would be curious if anyone here sees a lot of "we're hiring" and "help wanted" signs where they are. I don't see them to any significant extent here in Bay Area California.

But I don't see how talking about ILLEGAL immigration is race-baiting. The accusation seems to be just an identity politics tactic. You could make that accusation if Trump was talking about lowering our Infinite Immigration Policy, but if he talks numbers, he wants to increase it. He will talk about making it more skilled than unskilled.




Last edited by tfan on 02/20/19 9:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 02/20/19 9:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Is a conservative economist one that is paid for by conservative rich people? Economists paid by the rich of both parties talk a lot of crap, crap which just happens to always align with what the rich want - which is the lowest wages possible.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 12366
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 02/21/19 12:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Howee wrote:
pilight wrote:
Howee wrote:
His elderly mom was robbed at gunpoint, house ransacked by illegals. 3 times, he's been the victim of hit-and-run drivers, illegals who simply ran away from the scene of the accident.

How did they get caught?

Apparently they were (very drunk) neighborhood locals, and not hard to track down.

I meant the hit & run drivers
If they're locals he knows are illegals, why didn't he report them to the feds?

Re: the drivers, I believe they were driving cars of friends, so the trail led to them that way, for at least one of them.
He tells me that the illegals are always being reported, but in a sanctuary city, there are no simple evictions.



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Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 02/23/19 3:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/kGlRKiGMAfo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



_________________
Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
cthskzfn



Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12073
Location: In a world where a dbag like Trump isn't potus.


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PostPosted: 02/24/19 10:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Haven't the idiot's tariffs hurt parts of the economy?



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Shades



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PostPosted: 02/27/19 11:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This is a couple weeks old. Now this guy sounds presidential.
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/X5slDfdz_pg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



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Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
tfan



Joined: 31 May 2010
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PostPosted: 02/28/19 2:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
This is a couple weeks old. Now this guy sounds presidential.
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/X5slDfdz_pg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


He has the pro-illegal immigration, pro-illegal alien rhetoric that is so popular on the Democrat side these days. And he takes it a step further by not only demonizing more wall being built like Pelosi, but also goes after existing fencing as being immoral. But he makes a lot of errors or lies in his illegal immigration advocacy. Illegal immigration is not just doing what the Bracero program used to allow legally. The Bracero program was for short term manual laborers that I believe were only expected to be agricultural workers. It was a part of the Mexican Farm Labor Agreement. Illegal farm workers are slightly under 5% of our current illegal workforce. The second biggest category is construction workers. The Bracero program was eventually ended because of the negative effect it had on US farmworkers. Due to complaints from Americans, the Department of Labor was trying to get action taken to protect American workers and according to the Wikipedia article, they were only successful in getting a law passed that .... guaranteed American workers the same benefits that the Braceros were getting. The Bracero program also created a large amount of illegal immigration as workers would not leave when their short-term contract ended. Since they were fighting for farm workers back then, there is no chance in hell that the Bracero program could have been applied to good paying (maybe formerly good paying) jobs like a construction worker. Not to mention the myriad of other jobs the illegal aliens do these days in place of American workers.

He says that the illegal workforce does jobs that Americans won't do. But he leaves off the "for the wages we elite want to pay them". The Republicans and Democrats both want an illegal workforce, which is why we have it. But the Republicans don't complain about low wages for American workers. They are happy with that and realize that an illegal workforce helps get wages as low as possible. The Democrats claim they want American workers to make more, while simultaneously supporting an illegal workforce. So they either don't understand supply and demand, or they are clowning us.

O'Rourke says he wants to tear down the existing fences so illegal immigrants and asylum seekers don't have to go to tougher terrain. "We have walled off their opportunity to legally petition for asylum." But asylum seekers don't have to go anywhere but to a US embassy. Or they could trek up to a USA port of entry. No need to declare asylum to a US border agent who catches them trying to sneak in at an unpopulated part of New Mexico.

He says we are bound by international laws in the context of asylum seekers. But there is nothing in international laws/guidelines whatever, about "crime asylum". You can't go from Morroco to Spain and say "lots of crime in Morroco - need asylum" and hope to get asylum in Spain. I have also heard it said that international asylum rules say it is to be petitioned for at the next country over, which would at a maximum be Mexico.

He claims that we don't need a wall because border captures are at the lowest point in his lifetime. And yet he also talks about how 600 miles of fencing has been built that has driven illegal immigrants inland. He unintentionally makes a case for the fencing being effective. He says that illegal economic migrants are "only doing what you or I would do". But he doesn't take that to the logical conclusion - open the border with Latin America so these people he wants to help out can come here legally. He is like everyone - wants lots of Latin Americans coming in, but doesn't want zillions of them, or doesn't want to lose an illegal workforce.

I don't know that you can get elected President of the United States advocating for ILLEGAL immigration. Clinton and Sanders fought over who was going to do more for illegal immigrants, but I didn't hear them advocating or condoning illegal immigration as O'Rourke does. Although he was talking to MSNBC at that point and may decide to tone down his rhetoric if he was ever on a debate stage in a national election.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 02/28/19 8:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Beyond excellent, tfan. That’s a quality of analysis that goes beyond anything being said or heard in the public conversation around illegal immigration or current positions or shifts in positions of parties or what is being advocated currently by rising stars like Beto.

Like me, and at least as far as I know, you seem to have been content to post your thoughts here. This place and the conversation here can certainly act as a stimulant and Petri dish for the development of ideas and arguments. It’s none of my business what people do with their lives or time but I’m going to step past my lifelong aversion to telling anyone anything about what they should or shouldn’t do and urge you to polish your stuff up, this latest post here even, which is bouncing off of and deconstructing something so current as to what Beto O’Rourke just said, and send it somewhere.

Start sending your thoughts and analysis somewhere. I have made such a mistake not taking the stuff I put here and taking it beyond this incredibly small audience. The friction here works for us both I think but to keep these perspectives essentially to ourselves here on this message board is and has been a tremendous waste.

Of course, in the case of going against such widely held trends in political thought with controversial and potentially toxic contrarian content, nobody can judge a person these days for not being willing to enter the public conversation. But that’s the burden some people have to shoulder. Your perspective is too good, too high-quality, too badly needed to be heard by too many millions of people in this country. Seriously.

The New York Times probably wouldn’t touch something like this coming from an unknown but the Washington Post is a weirdly unpredictable publication that has had me scratching my head for years. But conservative publications, because anything that seeks to provide nuance and a viewpoint on illegal immigration that goes against where the Democratic Party is positioning itself can only be taken as conservative, would surely eat up contributions from a perspective such as what you provide. There’s places like the Daily Wire and you could probably find a home at someplace like Quillette.

If you knew what I knew and the people I know personally and what they’re doing with a tenth of the talent and quality of insights, you would shudder. But hey, like I said, no one can be judged for both having great opinions and perspectives and talents and still wanting to stay far out of the limelight and under the radar of a potentially and maybe even predictably destructive more public profile.

Anyway. Good post, I guess is another way of putting it.



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Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
huskiemaniac



Joined: 24 Nov 2004
Posts: 557
Location: NE CT


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PostPosted: 02/28/19 9:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Why spend money on a wall? If the intent is really to support the "working US citizen class", then enforce the laws already on the books and prosecute employers who utilize this illegal workforce in order to get their slice of the American Dream/Pie.

Additionally, if the concern is honest, why support the party who has, for decades, fought tooth and nail against virtually every legislation (and is stringently anti-union) that improves the lives of this working class, including a minimum wage increase, and is currently dead set against the $15 bottom wage movement?

Is the Democratic Party a panacea? Who could be so dense as to think so? But, pragmatically, it is the best chance at more, and bigger, crumbs of that pie.

Spending 10s of billions of dollars for a wall hasn't been proven to be a necessity in order to ameliorate this low wage situation.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 02/28/19 10:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

huskiemaniac wrote:
Why spend money on a wall? If the intent is really to support the "working US citizen class", then enforce the laws already on the books and prosecute employers who utilize this illegal workforce in order to get their slice of the American Dream/Pie.

Additionally, if the concern is honest, why support the party who has, for decades, fought tooth and nail against virtually every legislation (and is stringently anti-union) that improves the lives of this working class, including a minimum wage increase, and is currently dead set against the $15 bottom wage movement?

Is the Democratic Party a panacea? Who could be so dense as to think so? But, pragmatically, it is the best chance at more, and bigger, crumbs of that pie.

Spending 10s of billions of dollars for a wall hasn't been proven to be a necessity in order to ameliorate this low wage situation.


I can't really argue with any of this. I would say though that opposition to the wall is purely political and has nothing to do with money and that physical barriers are historically important and useful and long-utilized by those who have the power to construct them to protect what is theirs or whatever it is they want to protect.

Drive north of Sunset or even north of Santa Monica Blvd in Beverly Hills and you will see what the people who fund the Democratic Party really think of walls.

And, I would suggest, if a border wall was a completely ineffective barrier to illegal border crossings... I'm sorry... we wouldn't be hearing any opposition to it. It's the illegal border crossings that are what is being protected here by those who oppose the wall. And we wouldn't have, as a political party, taken the other side of the TWO sides that were necessary in order to shut down the US government. We would have just made a deal.



_________________
Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
tfan



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PostPosted: 02/28/19 10:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:


Anyway. Good post, I guess is another way of putting it.


Thanks! I have thought about blogging before. I tweet about illegal immigration but with only a handful of followers, it has no impact.


jammerbirdi



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 02/28/19 10:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:


Anyway. Good post, I guess is another way of putting it.


Thanks! I have thought about blogging before. I tweet about illegal immigration but with only a handful of followers, it has no impact.


You NEVER know the impact of who you are and what you put out there.




_________________
Falsehood will fly on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind; her steps slow and solemn, she has neither the vigour nor activity to overtake her enemy. - Thomas Francklin
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