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Maori Davenport Suspension
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linkster



Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: 01/12/19 4:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:



If the AHSAA were truly interested in pure amateurism there would be a lot of high quality football talent sitting at home on Friday night and Saturday during the fall. There have many cases of football players getting large sums of money, sometimes just for playing for high school teams and more often in the college recruiting process. There was also the case of Chuck Person being involved in paying high school basketball players to play at Auburn. The holier than thou concept of "pure amateurism" is much more of a "don't ask don't tell" policy where everyone looks the other way at major violations but then tries to show how tough they are by ruling against a girl. For what - accepting a payment from an organization that fosters girls amateur sports that made a mistake, and then repaying it when the issue was raised.


If I sit at a traffic light that doesn't change for 20 minutes that cycles through several times but never displays an arrow to turn left I am justified to go through that light when it is safe to do so. No rule is 100% inviolable and the judge was right to view the equities of the case.


Rules are rules? Bullshit. Rules are what people interpret them to be. An assistant AG once told me never ask if something is against the rules. Tell me what you want to do and I'll tell you if I can defend that interpretation of the rule. There is always a gray zone where the line moves along with the mood of the society and political pressure.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: 01/12/19 5:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

linkster wrote:
calbearman76 wrote:



If the AHSAA were truly interested in pure amateurism there would be a lot of high quality football talent sitting at home on Friday night and Saturday during the fall. There have many cases of football players getting large sums of money, sometimes just for playing for high school teams and more often in the college recruiting process. There was also the case of Chuck Person being involved in paying high school basketball players to play at Auburn. The holier than thou concept of "pure amateurism" is much more of a "don't ask don't tell" policy where everyone looks the other way at major violations but then tries to show how tough they are by ruling against a girl. For what - accepting a payment from an organization that fosters girls amateur sports that made a mistake, and then repaying it when the issue was raised.


If I sit at a traffic light that doesn't change for 20 minutes that cycles through several times but never displays an arrow to turn left I am justified to go through that light when it is safe to do so. No rule is 100% inviolable and the judge was right to view the equities of the case.


Rules are rules? Bullshit. Rules are what people interpret them to be. An assistant AG once told me never ask if something is against the rules. Tell me what you want to do and I'll tell you if I can defend that interpretation of the rule. There is always a gray zone where the line moves along with the mood of the society and political pressure.


Ummm....I THINK that was what Cal said. Shocked



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GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: 01/14/19 8:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The hearing date for Maori Davenport's court case is Tuesday, January 22. The judge could continue the injunction that allows Davenport to play or could side with the AHSAA and allow Davenport's suspension to resume.

https://www.dothaneagle.com/sports/high_school/hearing-date-set-in-maori-davenport-suspension-case/article_02ac08a2-1830-11e9-9c15-c3dc45f3bbca.html

Under the case law of the Alabama Supreme Court (Scott v. Kilpatrick, 1970), courts should defer to the decisions of the AHSAA unless the plaintiff (Davenport) can prove that the decision was the product of "arbitrariness, collusion or fraud". Actually, I think Davenport's best argument is something called mistake of fact, but I'm not sure that would be enough under Scott v. Kilpatrick, given that the AHSAA suspension rule reads like a strict liability offense, which (like the speeding example I gave) requires no intent element.

Whether the loser would appeal to a higher court is questionable. Usually, appeals take so much time, unless they are legal emergencies, that the basketball season would probably be over.
ClayK



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PostPosted: 01/15/19 11:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sadly, the ability to lawyer up is crucial in these kinds of cases ...

If a child doesn't have the funds for an attorney or cheap access to legal help, the high school associations simply don't care. But once those associations have to look at spending tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, they tend to just give in.

And they never address this fundamental paradox: If high school athletics are an educational benefit, the same as other extracurricular activities, then why are athletics the only extracurricular educational benefit that has rules to prevent or limit participation?



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osubeavers



Joined: 07 Jan 2017
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Location: West Hills, Portland, OR


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PostPosted: 01/17/19 5:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Sadly, the ability to lawyer up is crucial in these kinds of cases ...

If a child doesn't have the funds for an attorney or cheap access to legal help, the high school associations simply don't care. But once those associations have to look at spending tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, they tend to just give in.

And they never address this fundamental paradox: If high school athletics are an educational benefit, the same as other extracurricular activities, then why are athletics the only extracurricular educational benefit that has rules to prevent or limit participation?
Probably because athletics are competitive and rules to protect fair competition are appropriate - and necessary.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 01/18/19 10:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

osubeavers wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Sadly, the ability to lawyer up is crucial in these kinds of cases ...

If a child doesn't have the funds for an attorney or cheap access to legal help, the high school associations simply don't care. But once those associations have to look at spending tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, they tend to just give in.

And they never address this fundamental paradox: If high school athletics are an educational benefit, the same as other extracurricular activities, then why are athletics the only extracurricular educational benefit that has rules to prevent or limit participation?
Probably because athletics are competitive and rules to protect fair competition are appropriate - and necessary.


I believe debate is competitive. So is chorus. So is marching band. So is chess, for that matter.

And what is "fair competition" precisely?



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CourtsideTix



Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 01/19/19 6:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The judge has postponed the hearing to Feb. 1:

http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/25794839/judge-postpones-maori-davenport-case-vs-ahsaa


osubeavers



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PostPosted: 01/19/19 7:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
osubeavers wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Sadly, the ability to lawyer up is crucial in these kinds of cases ...

If a child doesn't have the funds for an attorney or cheap access to legal help, the high school associations simply don't care. But once those associations have to look at spending tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, they tend to just give in.

And they never address this fundamental paradox: If high school athletics are an educational benefit, the same as other extracurricular activities, then why are athletics the only extracurricular educational benefit that has rules to prevent or limit participation?
Probably because athletics are competitive and rules to protect fair competition are appropriate - and necessary.


I believe debate is competitive. So is chorus. So is marching band. So is chess, for that matter.

And what is "fair competition" precisely?


Nobody gets a bloody nose or tears an ACL in debate, choir, band or chess.



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Howee



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PostPosted: 01/19/19 10:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

osubeavers wrote:
ClayK wrote:
osubeavers wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Sadly, the ability to lawyer up is crucial in these kinds of cases ...

If a child doesn't have the funds for an attorney or cheap access to legal help, the high school associations simply don't care. But once those associations have to look at spending tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, they tend to just give in.

And they never address this fundamental paradox: If high school athletics are an educational benefit, the same as other extracurricular activities, then why are athletics the only extracurricular educational benefit that has rules to prevent or limit participation?
Probably because athletics are competitive and rules to protect fair competition are appropriate - and necessary.


I believe debate is competitive. So is chorus. So is marching band. So is chess, for that matter.

And what is "fair competition" precisely?


Nobody gets a bloody nose or tears an ACL in debate, choir, band or chess.

So, only the possibility of physical danger makes it 'real' competition? Rolling Eyes



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 01/20/19 1:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CourtsideTix wrote:
The judge has postponed the hearing to Feb. 1:

http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/25794839/judge-postpones-maori-davenport-case-vs-ahsaa


I predict this hearing will not occur before the season concludes. Then the suit can be dismissed as moot. Or at least everyone, especially the media, will lose interest and stop paying attention.

It's the safe political move for an elected judge. Avoid ever deciding anything and thereby avoid pissing anyone off.

Cowardly? Yes. Politically astute? Also yes. Especially when, as here, the correct legal outcome is almost certainly the unpopular one.


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 01/20/19 1:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
CourtsideTix wrote:
The judge has postponed the hearing to Feb. 1:

http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/25794839/judge-postpones-maori-davenport-case-vs-ahsaa


I predict this hearing will not occur before the season concludes. Then the suit can be dismissed as moot. Or at least everyone, especially the media, will lose interest and stop paying attention.

It's the safe political move for an elected judge. Avoid ever deciding anything and thereby avoid pissing anyone off.

Cowardly? Yes. Politically astute? Also yes. Especially when, as here, the correct legal outcome is almost certainly the unpopular one.


The the AHSAA can void all the school's wins with Davenport.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 01/20/19 1:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
CourtsideTix wrote:
The judge has postponed the hearing to Feb. 1:

http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/25794839/judge-postpones-maori-davenport-case-vs-ahsaa


I predict this hearing will not occur before the season concludes. Then the suit can be dismissed as moot. Or at least everyone, especially the media, will lose interest and stop paying attention.

It's the safe political move for an elected judge. Avoid ever deciding anything and thereby avoid pissing anyone off.

Cowardly? Yes. Politically astute? Also yes. Especially when, as here, the correct legal outcome is almost certainly the unpopular one.


The the AHSAA can void all the school's wins with Davenport.


I wouldn't be surprised to see the judge prevent that since it would undermine the court's injunction and authority.

That's assuming the association actually chooses to make an even bigger stink by trying.

I suspect they will all conclude she was temporarily "eligible" while playing under the umbrella of the TRO.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 01/21/19 10:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm still waiting for a reason why a singer in a high school chorus who gets paid for singing during the summer can compete in an interscholastic competition while a basketball player cannot.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 01/21/19 12:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
pilight wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
CourtsideTix wrote:
The judge has postponed the hearing to Feb. 1:

http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/25794839/judge-postpones-maori-davenport-case-vs-ahsaa


I predict this hearing will not occur before the season concludes. Then the suit can be dismissed as moot. Or at least everyone, especially the media, will lose interest and stop paying attention.

It's the safe political move for an elected judge. Avoid ever deciding anything and thereby avoid pissing anyone off.

Cowardly? Yes. Politically astute? Also yes. Especially when, as here, the correct legal outcome is almost certainly the unpopular one.


The the AHSAA can void all the school's wins with Davenport.


I wouldn't be surprised to see the judge prevent that since it would undermine the court's injunction and authority.

That's assuming the association actually chooses to make an even bigger stink by trying.

I suspect they will all conclude she was temporarily "eligible" while playing under the umbrella of the TRO.


Actually, the AHSAA must void all the school's wins with Davenport if the TRO is vacated or reversed.

The AHSAA's "SECTION 10. SCHOOL RESTITUTION RULE." states as follows:

Quote:
If . . . a student who has been declared ineligible is allowed to participate in interscholastic competition because of a court restraining order . . . against . . . the AHSAA, and if such restraining order . . . is subsequently vacated, stayed, reversed . . . , then all contests in which such ineligible student participated shall be forfeited . . . . In addition, the school may be fined or placed on probation in the interest of restitution and fairness to other member schools.


I suppose a judge might try to enjoin the implementation of Section 10, but it shouldn't under all sorts of legal doctrines regarding the proper role of courts and judicial power.
ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: 01/21/19 1:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If the judge dismisses the case as moot after the season there is no need to vacate, stay or reverse the TRO or to ever decide the merits or determe the TRO was improvidently granted.


mugsyt



Joined: 29 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: 01/25/19 8:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nice letter from CViv to Maori!
http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/25843860/c-vivian-stringer-maori-davenport-rise-all


pilight



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PostPosted: 01/31/19 11:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Maori Davenport eligibility hearing postponed for second time

http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/25891608/maori-davenport-eligibility-hearing-postponed-second-time

Quote:
In his Wednesday order to postpone it again, Reagan wrote that one day "is not a sufficient allocation of time to dispose of the motions and the underlying case."



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 01/31/19 1:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

one wonders if Alabama HS whatever would be such assholes about it if she were White?



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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 01/31/19 1:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
one wonders if Alabama HS whatever would be such assholes about it if she were White?


I tend to think the case would have been handled differently if she was white or male or committed to an in-state school.



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Her mocking smile says it all
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CourtsideTix



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PostPosted: 01/31/19 10:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Maori Davenport eligibility hearing postponed for second time

http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/25891608/maori-davenport-eligibility-hearing-postponed-second-time

Quote:
In his Wednesday order to postpone it again, Reagan wrote that one day "is not a sufficient allocation of time to dispose of the motions and the underlying case."


Thanks for the link. Here's my favorite part of the article:

Quote:
A new hearing date has not been set.


When's the date of the state championship game? Laughing


calbearman76



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PostPosted: 02/01/19 6:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The issue of vacating wins, particularly after the end of the season, really doesn't matter. The only issue would be if they vacated wins as a way of keeping them out of the playoffs.

OJ Simpson and Reggie Bush both won the Heisman. The Fab 5 at Michigan made it to the NCAA finals even if their wins were subsequently vacated. Chris Webber still called a time out they did not have. Record books can be rewritten but it doesn't change the fact that the games were actually played.


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