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ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: 01/07/19 12:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Statement by AHSAA Central Board of Control President Johnny Hardin

http://www.ahsaa.com/Media/AHSAANOW/News-Articles/ArticleID/1399/statement-by-ahsaa-central-board-of-control-president-johnny-hardin

Quote:
However, if exceptions are made, there would no longer be a need for an Amateur Rule. The Rules are applied equally to ALL athletes. Furthermore, most eligibility violations are the result of adults failing to follow the rules. Here, the student’s mother as a certified AHSAA Coach should know the rules; the School’s Principal should know the rules, the Head Basketball Coach, as not only a Coach but also as a former Central Board member, should know the rules.


Determining that a violation occurred and determining an appropriate sanction or remedy are two separate things in nearly all adjudications. Perhaps the error and solution here lie in the sanctions determination, not in the finding that a violation occurred.

Assess a proportionate sanction and the problem is solved for both sides.


ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 01/07/19 1:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
pilight wrote:
Statement by AHSAA Central Board of Control President Johnny Hardin

http://www.ahsaa.com/Media/AHSAANOW/News-Articles/ArticleID/1399/statement-by-ahsaa-central-board-of-control-president-johnny-hardin

Quote:
However, if exceptions are made, there would no longer be a need for an Amateur Rule. The Rules are applied equally to ALL athletes. Furthermore, most eligibility violations are the result of adults failing to follow the rules. Here, the student’s mother as a certified AHSAA Coach should know the rules; the School’s Principal should know the rules, the Head Basketball Coach, as not only a Coach but also as a former Central Board member, should know the rules.


Determining that a violation occurred and determining an appropriate sanction or remedy are two separate things in nearly all adjudications. Perhaps the error and solution here lie in the sanctions determination, not in the finding that a violation occurred.

Assess a proportionate sanction and the problem is solved for both sides.


Great point -- how about a three-week suspension?



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ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: 01/07/19 1:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
pilight wrote:
Statement by AHSAA Central Board of Control President Johnny Hardin

http://www.ahsaa.com/Media/AHSAANOW/News-Articles/ArticleID/1399/statement-by-ahsaa-central-board-of-control-president-johnny-hardin

Quote:
However, if exceptions are made, there would no longer be a need for an Amateur Rule. The Rules are applied equally to ALL athletes. Furthermore, most eligibility violations are the result of adults failing to follow the rules. Here, the student’s mother as a certified AHSAA Coach should know the rules; the School’s Principal should know the rules, the Head Basketball Coach, as not only a Coach but also as a former Central Board member, should know the rules.


Determining that a violation occurred and determining an appropriate sanction or remedy are two separate things in nearly all adjudications. Perhaps the error and solution here lie in the sanctions determination, not in the finding that a violation occurred.

Assess a proportionate sanction and the problem is solved for both sides.


Great point -- how about a three-week suspension?


I suggested 3 games above. But whatever.

I suspect she has already missed more than that, so impose a "time served" suspension, declare victory, the rules are preserved, and let her get back to playing. Maybe they should suspend her mother for a few games too. She seems to be in the middle of this but is getting off scot free. She's a coach. She seems to need a rules review course.


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 01/07/19 8:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:

Assess a proportionate sanction and the problem is solved for both sides.


Great point -- how about a three-week suspension?


That's not possible under the Section 8 bylaws I linked. Those bylaws repeat many times, in many different formulations, that a student becomes a professional if she accepts any monetary remuneration for play. Paragraph (e) recapitulates it all by stating, mandatorily, that: "Acceptance of awards exceeding these limitations shall disqualify a student."

Paragraph (f) then specifies the one and only way to restore amateur status: "A student who has lost his/her amateur standing may be reinstated after the lapse of one high school season . . . ."

The administrator, Savarese, does not have discretion under the mandatory bylaws to impose flexible punishments. He's doing his job, which is to follow democratically legislated amateurism policies and rules, not to make or change those policies or rules. The bylaw would have to be democratically amended to allow the flexible punishment, or non-punishment, for which people are advocating.
pilight



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PostPosted: 01/07/19 8:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
ClayK wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:

Assess a proportionate sanction and the problem is solved for both sides.


Great point -- how about a three-week suspension?


That's not possible under the Section 8 bylaws I linked. Those bylaws repeat many times, in many different formulations, that a student becomes a professional if she accepts any monetary remuneration for play. Paragraph (e) recapitulates it all by stating, mandatorily, that: "Acceptance of awards exceeding these limitations shall disqualify a student."

Paragraph (f) then specifies the one and only way to restore amateur status: "A student who has lost his/her amateur standing may be reinstated after the lapse of one high school season . . . ."

The administrator, Savarese, does not have discretion under the mandatory bylaws to impose flexible punishments. He's doing his job, which is to follow democratically legislated amateurism policies and rules, not to make or change those policies or rules. The bylaw would have to be democratically amended to allow the flexible punishment, or non-punishment, for which people are advocating.


The notion that playing for the national team represents a loss of amateur status is absurd



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 01/07/19 8:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
ClayK wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:

Assess a proportionate sanction and the problem is solved for both sides.


Great point -- how about a three-week suspension?


That's not possible under the Section 8 bylaws I linked. Those bylaws repeat many times, in many different formulations, that a student becomes a professional if she accepts any monetary remuneration for play. Paragraph (e) recapitulates it all by stating, mandatorily, that: "Acceptance of awards exceeding these limitations shall disqualify a student."

Paragraph (f) then specifies the one and only way to restore amateur status: "A student who has lost his/her amateur standing may be reinstated after the lapse of one high school season . . . ."

The administrator, Savarese, does not have discretion under the mandatory bylaws to impose flexible punishments. He's doing his job, which is to follow democratically legislated amateurism policies and rules, not to make or change those policies or rules. The bylaw would have to be democratically amended to allow the flexible punishment, or non-punishment, for which people are advocating.


The notion that playing for the national team represents a loss of amateur status is absurd


It's not playing that results in loss of amateur status; it's accepting more than $250 for doing so.

Whether or not a policy is absurd is decided by the enactment of amateurism rules by the relevant voting democracy -- i.e., every school that is a member of the Alabama association.
pilight



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PostPosted: 01/07/19 8:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
pilight wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
ClayK wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:

Assess a proportionate sanction and the problem is solved for both sides.


Great point -- how about a three-week suspension?


That's not possible under the Section 8 bylaws I linked. Those bylaws repeat many times, in many different formulations, that a student becomes a professional if she accepts any monetary remuneration for play. Paragraph (e) recapitulates it all by stating, mandatorily, that: "Acceptance of awards exceeding these limitations shall disqualify a student."

Paragraph (f) then specifies the one and only way to restore amateur status: "A student who has lost his/her amateur standing may be reinstated after the lapse of one high school season . . . ."

The administrator, Savarese, does not have discretion under the mandatory bylaws to impose flexible punishments. He's doing his job, which is to follow democratically legislated amateurism policies and rules, not to make or change those policies or rules. The bylaw would have to be democratically amended to allow the flexible punishment, or non-punishment, for which people are advocating.


The notion that playing for the national team represents a loss of amateur status is absurd


It's not playing that results in loss of amateur status; it's accepting more than $250 for doing so.

Whether or not a policy is absurd is decided by the enactment of amateurism rules by the relevant voting democracy -- i.e., every school that is a member of the Alabama association.


Just because a policy was implemented by democratically chosen representatives doesn't mean it is not absurd.



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Tally24



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PostPosted: 01/08/19 2:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So, the issue isn’t that she took money, it’s just that she took too much? Seems counterintuitive. If the point is to preserve a status of “amateur,” how is taking a certain amount wrong, while another is fine? I dunno man. Seems like the crime doesn’t fit the punishment and the rule is a rule for the sake of, well, being a rule.
ClayK



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PostPosted: 01/08/19 10:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Again, why should a high school student be prohibited from receiving money for playing basketball?

What is the rationale?



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 01/08/19 12:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Tally24 wrote:
So, the issue isn’t that she took money, it’s just that she took too much? Seems counterintuitive. If the point is to preserve a status of “amateur,” how is taking a certain amount wrong, while another is fine? I dunno man. Seems like the crime doesn’t fit the punishment and the rule is a rule for the sake of, well, being a rule.


Amateur sports have always had a limited amount allowed to cover expenses.

The $250 cap is unsurprising and typical.


CourtsideTix



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PostPosted: 01/08/19 4:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

More on this travesty.

Quote:
When informed of the error, Davenport’s mother, Tara Davenport, immediately wrote a check to USA Basketball to repay the money, in addition to paying an extra $40 to send the check back in 72 hours. Tara said she did not question the check initially, because it was from USA Basketball. In her eyes, the national organization was — and still is — trustworthy and reliable. . .

Tara, a fifth-grade teacher who has been in the school system for 16 years, rebutted the statement [by AHSAA on Monday], saying she primarily coaches middle school basketball and has only assisted at the varsity level.

“We have always been super careful and for this to happen, it is mind-blowing,” she said. “But, I think about what I could have done differently and I don’t think I would have done anything differently, because it came from USA. I thought simply because the check was coming from USA, we were good, and that was it.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/01/08/this-high-school-star-lost-her-eligibility-because-team-usas-mistake-state-refuses-budge/?utm_term=.477d77ac6874


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 01/08/19 7:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CourtsideTix wrote:
More on this travesty.

Quote:
When informed of the error, Davenport’s mother, Tara Davenport, immediately wrote a check to USA Basketball to repay the money, in addition to paying an extra $40 to send the check back in 72 hours. Tara said she did not question the check initially, because it was from USA Basketball. In her eyes, the national organization was — and still is — trustworthy and reliable. . .

Tara, a fifth-grade teacher who has been in the school system for 16 years, rebutted the statement [by AHSAA on Monday], saying she primarily coaches middle school basketball and has only assisted at the varsity level.

“We have always been super careful and for this to happen, it is mind-blowing,” she said. “But, I think about what I could have done differently and I don’t think I would have done anything differently, because it came from USA. I thought simply because the check was coming from USA, we were good, and that was it.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/01/08/this-high-school-star-lost-her-eligibility-because-team-usas-mistake-state-refuses-budge/?utm_term=.477d77ac6874


The Washington Post reporter confuses and obfuscates the relevant facts, which seem to be most accurately recited in this official statement from the AHSAA, which everyone should read in its entirety. But since most won't, I'll excerpt some quotes:

Quote:
No one (including USA Basketball or CHHS) disputes the Amateur Rule was violated. On August 15, 2018, USA Basketball paid the student $857.20 for lost wages while participating with the USA Basketball team over the past summer. Neither USA Basketball, the student’s parents, the student’s coach, nor CHHS administration reported the student had received the check until three months later, (specifically 91 days). During this time, the student played in several games. . . .

The check ($857.20) paid to the student was dated August 15, 2018, and endorsed by the student and posted to the student’s bank account on August 27, 2018. The student’s mother sent USA Basketball a check in the same amount three months later on November 28, 2018.

The student’s mother is a certified AHSAA Basketball Coach; therefore, she is required to uphold current AHSAA bylaws and rules, including the Amateur Rule quoted above. Furthermore, the Head Girls’ Basketball Coach at CHHS is a former member of the AHSAA Central Board of Control; thus, she should not only appreciate the importance of knowing and following the AHSAA bylaws and eligibility rules but also understand how imperative it is to consistently uphold the same rules.

Steve Savarese . . . does not have the authority to change a rule. Rather, as Executive Director, his job is to apply the rules as written.

Following Mr. Savarese’s ruling, the school appealed to both appellate levels for the AHSAA. First, to the District 2 Board – affirmed by unanimous vote of the 4-member Board. Next, to the Central Board of Control - affirmed by unanimous vote of the 15-member Board which represents the entire State. . . .

. . . the AHSAA member schools, not Mr. Savarese nor the AHSAA staff, write and approve the AHSAA eligibility rules which include the Amateur Rule.

. . . . The penalty for violating the Amateur Rule has not been amended in at least the past 10 years . . . . Which, in turn, means each year Charles Henderson High School has agreed to the penalty for violating this Rule without comment or pursuing any kind of rule change within the legislative process.

. . . .

It should be pointed out that a high school student from Illinois also received payment from USA Basketball. However, that student called her high school once she received the check and then returned the check to USA Basketball without cashing or depositing it. Here, the student received the check, endorsed it and it was posted to her bank account. Three months later, AHSAA was notified and the monies returned to USA Basketball.

A high school student from Missouri has also been ruled ineligible for this basketball season for accepting the lost wages payment from USA Basketball.
CourtsideTix



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PostPosted: 01/08/19 7:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:


The Washington Post reporter confuses and obfuscates the relevant facts . . .



There isn't any dispute about the facts.


pilight



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PostPosted: 01/08/19 8:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The AHSAA most definitely misstated the facts of the Illinois student. Anaya Peoples did cash the check and did not call her high school. She returned the money when she was informed of the error by USA Basketball, just like Davenport. Peoples has not been suspended.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 01/08/19 9:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
The AHSAA most definitely misstated the facts of the Illinois student. Anaya Peoples did cash the check and did not call her high school.


What's your authority for these statements?
jmvcity



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PostPosted: 01/08/19 11:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Can she play elsewhere? Another school in another state?


pilight



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PostPosted: 01/09/19 11:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
pilight wrote:
The AHSAA most definitely misstated the facts of the Illinois student. Anaya Peoples did cash the check and did not call her high school.


What's your authority for these statements?


I'm going on what Jay Bilas said on Outside the Lines



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 01/09/19 12:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jmvcity wrote:
Can she play elsewhere? Another school in another state?


Yes, she can play in any of the high schools in Alabama that are not members of the AHSAA. These would likely be private high schools. Articles say she doesn't want to transfer just to play basketball.
osubeavers



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PostPosted: 01/09/19 12:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Statement by AHSAA Central Board of Control President Johnny Hardin

http://www.ahsaa.com/Media/AHSAANOW/News-Articles/ArticleID/1399/statement-by-ahsaa-central-board-of-control-president-johnny-hardin

Quote:
However, if exceptions are made, there would no longer be a need for an Amateur Rule. The Rules are applied equally to ALL athletes. Furthermore, most eligibility violations are the result of adults failing to follow the rules. Here, the student’s mother as a certified AHSAA Coach should know the rules; the School’s Principal should know the rules, the Head Basketball Coach, as not only a Coach but also as a former Central Board member, should know the rules.
Students often have to pay the price for the mistakes of their parents or coaches. Always have always will. Let this serve as an example to those adults to be responsible to the children who rely on their knowledge and judgment. In the bigger picture, a high school athlete losing a season of eligibility due to a clear rules violation is hardly the end of the world. If she is talented she will not be denied a college scholarship opportunity.



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 01/09/19 4:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

osubeavers wrote:
pilight wrote:
Statement by AHSAA Central Board of Control President Johnny Hardin

http://www.ahsaa.com/Media/AHSAANOW/News-Articles/ArticleID/1399/statement-by-ahsaa-central-board-of-control-president-johnny-hardin

Quote:
However, if exceptions are made, there would no longer be a need for an Amateur Rule. The Rules are applied equally to ALL athletes. Furthermore, most eligibility violations are the result of adults failing to follow the rules. Here, the student’s mother as a certified AHSAA Coach should know the rules; the School’s Principal should know the rules, the Head Basketball Coach, as not only a Coach but also as a former Central Board member, should know the rules.
Students often have to pay the price for the mistakes of their parents or coaches. Always have always will. Let this serve as an example to those adults to be responsible to the children who rely on their knowledge and judgment. In the bigger picture, a high school athlete losing a season of eligibility due to a clear rules violation is hardly the end of the world. If she is talented she will not be denied a college scholarship opportunity.


wow! Shocked I think if you were in that situation yourself, or your kid, you would hardly feel that way. For a top athlete to miss out a whole year playing the sport you love and excel at because of bureaucratic nonsense could in fact feel like the end of the world for that kid. If it had happened to me as a senior in high school, I would have been devastated. Again, this was an error from USAB - perhaps USAB should be fined rather than punishing the kid.



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 01/09/19 4:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
pilight wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
ClayK wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:

Assess a proportionate sanction and the problem is solved for both sides.


Great point -- how about a three-week suspension?


That's not possible under the Section 8 bylaws I linked. Those bylaws repeat many times, in many different formulations, that a student becomes a professional if she accepts any monetary remuneration for play. Paragraph (e) recapitulates it all by stating, mandatorily, that: "Acceptance of awards exceeding these limitations shall disqualify a student."

Paragraph (f) then specifies the one and only way to restore amateur status: "A student who has lost his/her amateur standing may be reinstated after the lapse of one high school season . . . ."

The administrator, Savarese, does not have discretion under the mandatory bylaws to impose flexible punishments. He's doing his job, which is to follow democratically legislated amateurism policies and rules, not to make or change those policies or rules. The bylaw would have to be democratically amended to allow the flexible punishment, or non-punishment, for which people are advocating.


The notion that playing for the national team represents a loss of amateur status is absurd


It's not playing that results in loss of amateur status; it's accepting more than $250 for doing so.

Whether or not a policy is absurd is decided by the enactment of amateurism rules by the relevant voting democracy -- i.e., every school that is a member of the Alabama association.


Just because a policy was implemented by democratically chosen representatives doesn't mean it is not absurd.


Then the schools in the association should be outraged, call for an immediate vote, and change it!



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toad455



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PostPosted: 01/09/19 4:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So if they don't consider Davenport an amateur anymore, can she enter the WNBA?



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pilight



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PostPosted: 01/09/19 4:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Davenport’s school responds to AHSAA statement, ruling

https://www.wsfa.com/2019/01/09/davenports-school-responds-ahsaa-statement-ruling/

Quote:
The AHSAA also used a case in Illinois as an example of how things should be done in this type of situation.

“It should be pointed out that a high school student from Illinois also received payment from USA Basketball. However, that student called her high school once she received the check and then returned the check to USA Basketball without cashing or depositing it,” said Hardin in a statement.

USA basketball says that statement is inaccurate.

A spokesperson told WBRC the player “did cash the check after receiving it from USA Basketball.”



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BamaEd



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PostPosted: 01/09/19 5:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
So if they don't consider Davenport an amateur anymore, can she enter the WNBA?


From what I understand, her college eligibility isn't affected, only her high school eligibility.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 01/09/19 5:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
So if they don't consider Davenport an amateur anymore, can she enter the WNBA?


That has nothing to do with amateurism rules. She can't because the WNBA's and WNBAPA's trade restraints say she can't.

Neither the AHSAA nor NCAA have any say in that matter.

Which makes it a bit hypocritical for the WNBA or its players to wade into this dispute when they impose even more unfair restrictions on players' ability to play for money.


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