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Maori Davenport Suspension
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PostPosted: 01/05/19 7:20 am    ::: Maori Davenport Suspension Reply Reply with quote

How can the admins at ASHSS be so, what's the word I'm looking for? Ridiculous? Ignorant? Cold? Just plain mean?

And how are they not embarrassed? I'd think that they would be falling all over themselves to fix this. (Unless there's more to it than has been released in this story.)

http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/25684801/wnba-spalding-lead-social-outrage-maori-davenport-suspension?addata=espnw:ncw:index



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 01/05/19 11:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This is an amazing story, and all too typical of administrators who value rules above their supposed job of supporting high school athletics.

First point: If a girl got cast in a local production of a play and was paid for her work, would she then be prohibited from being in her high school play?

Obviously not, so why are high school sports treated differently than other extracurricular activities?

Second point: If high school athletics are a valuable enough activity that they are supported financially by the schools, doesn't that mean they benefit the students who participate? If so, then shouldn't administrators try to make it as easy as possible for all students to participate?

Now, if you're with me so far, let's extend this a little. Why, then, should there be rules that bar high school students from playing sports when they transfer? Does the drama student have to sit out a year? Does the number one on the chess club ladder have to sit out? Does the top debater have to sit out?

Of course the answer is that "it's not fair and kids would just gravitate to schools with elite programs." Well they do that for music and drama and debate, but there's no problem with those -- why are high school sports treated differently than any other extracurricular activity? And what is gained by denying young people the benefits of athletic activity? Wouldn't it make more sense to keep the coach from coaching if you want to "punish" someone for a transfer?

Finally, of course recruiting goes on, and of course some programs are stronger than others, and always have been, and always will be. So what? What difference does it make? Let parents decide where their children should go to school, and once in that school, let them participate in whatever extracurricular activities they choose. It is, supposedly, about the children, right? And why should a child be prevented from participating in any activity at a school (as long as there are no conduct or academic problems)?



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PostPosted: 01/05/19 12:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

USAB is the entity with the most egg on its face, IMHO. And why don't schools have some sort of compliance officer to help students sort out these issues proactively instead of leaving them to cash erroneous but illegal checks?


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PostPosted: 01/05/19 1:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Interesting.

I'd like a source, other than CViv, re: the kid's handling of the check.

The check arrived in the mail. Kid opens mail, sees a big check, and then what, exactly?



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willtalk



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PostPosted: 01/05/19 4:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There always seems to have been an academic bias against sports in both high school and college. This is just an example of it being at play. I also find it interesting that Administrators all over the country can make all sorts of decisions that end up bankrupting school system, yet are never held accountable for their mistakes.

I can also understand that they are working with and need to consider precedent, however we should never be afraid to do what is right and keeping her on the bench is wrong. But still her losing her Senior season is not World Ending. It will not keep her from continuing at the next level since she already has her scholly.

It is not just what was done but why that is important. I have seen players lose a year of eligiblity purely for spits sake. Intent is always an important factor.



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PostPosted: 01/05/19 5:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
Interesting.

I'd like a source, other than CViv, re: the kid's handling of the check.

The check arrived in the mail. Kid opens mail, sees a big check, and then what, exactly?

I'm sure she did what any kid would do who received a paycheck that she'd been expecting: assumed it was for the correct amount and cashed it.

This wasn't some shady booster sending money that would have raised a red flag with her or her family that something was off, it was USA Basketball who works with high school students all the time. It's just that they messed up and instead of sending her the $250 allowed they sent her the full $850ish that she earned.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 01/06/19 1:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
cthskzfn wrote:
Interesting.

I'd like a source, other than CViv, re: the kid's handling of the check.

The check arrived in the mail. Kid opens mail, sees a big check, and then what, exactly?

I'm sure she did what any kid would do who received a paycheck that she'd been expecting: assumed it was for the correct amount and cashed it.

This wasn't some shady booster sending money that would have raised a red flag with her or her family that something was off, it was USA Basketball who works with high school students all the time. It's just that they messed up and instead of sending her the $250 allowed they sent her the full $850ish that she earned.


So they should have simply said "pay the excess back to USAB and everyone's happy."

This is just silly which makes one assume the worst about the actual motivations of the state association officials. I don't think this is about amateurism rules; there's something else going on here. Would this have happened if (a) she was white, or (b) she had committed to stay home to play at Bama or Auburn or Troy?


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PostPosted: 01/06/19 10:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The amateurism bylaw at issue, Section 8(e), which has been adopted by every member high school in Alabama is clear and mandatory:

"No award of any kind having a monetary value of more than 250 dollars—other than medals, trophies, plaques or AHSAA championship rings—shall be made to students. Violation of this rule on the part of school officials shall subject the school to suspension for one year. Acceptance of awards exceeding these limitations shall disqualify a student."

Rules are rules, and students within the AHSAA are expected to know and follow them -- unless and until they are changed. (USAB isn't.)

To me, the fighting legal issue is the interpretation of the word "acceptance" in the bylaw. Did Davenport "accept" the money. This article says she cashed the check and the AHSAA considered that act to be acceptance. That's a reasonable interpretation, but not the only reasonable interpretation. If Davenport promptly returned the excess amount to USAB, one could reasonably conclude that there was no "acceptance" under the totality of circumstances.

Unfortunately, her disqualification has already been upheld by the District and Central levels of the AHSAA, and that seems to be the end of the administrative line under the AHSAA Constitution -- unless the Central level changes its position due to public pressures.
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PostPosted: 01/06/19 11:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Slavish adherence to the rules sometimes leads to ridiculous results.

What is the purpose of this rule? Does anyone benefit from the student being suspended?



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 01/06/19 11:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Slavish adherence to the rules sometimes leads to ridiculous results.

What is the purpose of this rule? Does anyone benefit from the student being suspended?


Precisely. My understanding is they returned the money, and then self-reported. And USAB says it was all their mistake, a clerical error by a staffer low on the food chain.

And to say, "Oh, she'll get to play again," misses the point of high school athletics completely. Her senior year on a team that might win a state title? The experience of playing with the girls she grew up with? And who knows what lies ahead?

She's lost a year of basketball that can never be replaced, and only because a group of administrators value to-the-letter adherence to a rule more than the welfare of the child they are supposed to be supporting.



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PostPosted: 01/06/19 12:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
pilight wrote:
Slavish adherence to the rules sometimes leads to ridiculous results.

What is the purpose of this rule? Does anyone benefit from the student being suspended?


Precisely. My understanding is they returned the money, and then self-reported. And USAB says it was all their mistake, a clerical error by a staffer low on the food chain.

And to say, "Oh, she'll get to play again," misses the point of high school athletics completely. Her senior year on a team that might win a state title? The experience of playing with the girls she grew up with? And who knows what lies ahead?

She's lost a year of basketball that can never be replaced, and only because a group of administrators value to-the-letter adherence to a rule more than the welfare of the child they are supposed to be supporting.



Rules/policies can be sticky things. Sometimes they can get admins out of tough situations, but they can also back them into a corner that they can't gracefully get out of.

How do they get out of this now without sending a message that you can take money/awards above $250.00 and its OK until you get caught (or sefl-report)? And then if you pay it back its OK again?

Are they saying take the money/award, keep your mouth shut and hope that you're not found out?

Shouldn't you get points for being honest and self-reporting?

I'd love to have the transcripts of the conversations that went on at AHSAA regarding this. Did anyone speak up and ask about the message that they wanted to send? About how this would look to the rest of the world?



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PostPosted: 01/06/19 2:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Her family paid the money back.
Bunch of stultified old dudes with sticks up their whatevers making decisions about young folks and what they should or shouldn't do. Razz



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PostPosted: 01/06/19 2:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It’s nice to see mainstream sports figures come out and say something here. Feels like the public outcry and media attention could turn this around in the student’s favor.

Some parallels to the Kansas State and Leticia Romero situation?

Nick Saban, your turn!


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PostPosted: 01/06/19 3:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The faces and emails of AHSAA. Wish them a Happy New Year and more. Go Clemson!

http://www.ahsaa.com/School-Parent-Resources/AHSAA/About-Us/AHSAA-Staff


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PostPosted: 01/06/19 3:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

According to the discussion on ESPN at halftime of the Tenn-Mo game, the student didn't self-report. USAB self-reported this to AHSAA and the NCAA (I think) as their error and notified the student she had to return the money. (Rebecca Lobo was out-of-her-mind angry about this situation.)

IDK. Maybe the message the AHSAA is trying to send is that ignorance of the rules is no excuse and that it would behoove their member schools to be on top of this stuff.


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PostPosted: 01/06/19 3:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It’s nice to see mainstream sports figures come out and say something here. Feels like the public outcry and media attention could turn this around in the student’s favor.

Some parallels to the Kansas State and Leticia Romero situation?

Nick Saban, your turn!


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PostPosted: 01/06/19 7:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If the money had come from anywhere but USAB, I could understand it better. But this is totally ridiculous to punish a kid like this.



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PostPosted: 01/06/19 7:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Honest question- Is it possible the player and/or family knew the check was for more than was allowed, and decided to cash it anyway?

Are they familiar with USAB and its stipend rules?

Without knowing the details, I can't decide wtf is going on here.

Very Happy

On the surface it appears to bureaucratic bullshit.



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PostPosted: 01/07/19 1:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The amateurism rules are ridiculous at so many levels. It seems this was a problem caused by USAB and if they were the ones that reported it to the Alabama officials I'd like to see Davenport sue them for causing her not to be able to play. That has to be worth at least $10,000 in emotional distress. And since the lawsuit wouldn't be for playing basketball it shouldn't violate NCAA eligibility rules either. At the very least it would put these administrators on notice that they are at all times supposed to have the best interests of the athletes in mind.


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PostPosted: 01/07/19 10:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

>How do they get out of this now without sending a message that you can take money/awards above $250.00 and its OK until you get caught (or sefl-report)? And then if you pay it back its OK again?

Just a question: Why shouldn't a young player be able to get paid for playing her sport? What happens if, horrors, she's not an "amateur" any more? Does the world stop spinning on its axis? Is the game ruined?

And let's be real: Elite players gain significant financial advantages from middle school on, as clubs pay their expenses (which are worth a lot more than $250).

Remember when the Olympics were "amateur" and so was tennis? Both groups' organizations claimed ruination loomed if professionals were allowed to participate ...

Again, someone tell me why Maori Davenport shouldn't get $900 for playing for USAB? What is the crime involved?



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pilight



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PostPosted: 01/07/19 10:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
>How do they get out of this now without sending a message that you can take money/awards above $250.00 and its OK until you get caught (or sefl-report)? And then if you pay it back its OK again?

Just a question: Why shouldn't a young player be able to get paid for playing her sport? What happens if, horrors, she's not an "amateur" any more? Does the world stop spinning on its axis? Is the game ruined?

And let's be real: Elite players gain significant financial advantages from middle school on, as clubs pay their expenses (which are worth a lot more than $250).

Remember when the Olympics were "amateur" and so was tennis? Both groups' organizations claimed ruination loomed if professionals were allowed to participate ...

Again, someone tell me why Maori Davenport shouldn't get $900 for playing for USAB? What is the crime involved?



There's no intrinsic value to amateurism.

The rule is to prevent glory seeking administrators from paying ringers to play and win for the school, thus denying actual students the educational opportunities associated with interscholastic athletics. That doesn't seem to apply in this case.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 01/07/19 10:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/25698559/the-maddening-case-maori-davenport-steve-savarese

Quote:
My charge is to uphold the rules. What if I said 'no'? What if I let her play? If I make an exception to one rule, it opens up Pandora's box on all of our rules. How could I enforce any rule? If I made an exception here, I would be arbitrary and capricious.



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PostPosted: 01/07/19 11:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

cthskzfn wrote:
Honest question- Is it possible the player and/or family knew the check was for more than was allowed, and decided to cash it anyway?

Are they familiar with USAB and its stipend rules?

Without knowing the details, I can't decide wtf is going on here.

Very Happy

On the surface it appears to bureaucratic bullshit.


I can't answer those questions, but there were a lot of details in the media when this story first broke in November that aren't being cited now, and I can't find the earliest stories now because they're buried in the recent furor. As I recall, the player's family received the check in August, and it was cashed by her mother. Her mother had reportedly received a phone call from USAB saying a check was in the mail so she thought it was OK to cash it. Then a USAB audit in November uncovered the error, and USAB notified both AHSAA and the family, and the family returned the money. The AHSAA investigated and issued their ruling, followed by denying 2 appeals. The procedure was done by a committee and not a whim by just the head of the AHSAA, who's taking the heat now. I've yet to see anything that says the family or school checked AHSAA rules or called them before cashing that check. The issue here isn't really USAB's stipend rules, it's AHSAA's rules.


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PostPosted: 01/07/19 12:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/25698559/the-maddening-case-maori-davenport-steve-savarese

Quote:
My charge is to uphold the rules. What if I said 'no'? What if I let her play? If I make an exception to one rule, it opens up Pandora's box on all of our rules. How could I enforce any rule? If I made an exception here, I would be arbitrary and capricious.


I wonder, after reading this, if it was material to the outcome that the mother who accepted and cashed the check is an assistant coach. Perhaps she, even if not the player, should (and probabably did) know better. That seems to be an important fact that has been omitted from every other discussion I have seen on this incident.

BTW, seems that Savarese could adequately have made his point about enforcing the rules by, say, suspending the player for theee games or something similar, thereby demonstrating his "no exceptions" stance while not making a farce of the situation.




Last edited by ArtBest23 on 01/07/19 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
pilight



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PostPosted: 01/07/19 12:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Statement by AHSAA Central Board of Control President Johnny Hardin

http://www.ahsaa.com/Media/AHSAANOW/News-Articles/ArticleID/1399/statement-by-ahsaa-central-board-of-control-president-johnny-hardin

Quote:
However, if exceptions are made, there would no longer be a need for an Amateur Rule. The Rules are applied equally to ALL athletes. Furthermore, most eligibility violations are the result of adults failing to follow the rules. Here, the student’s mother as a certified AHSAA Coach should know the rules; the School’s Principal should know the rules, the Head Basketball Coach, as not only a Coach but also as a former Central Board member, should know the rules.



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