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Bob Lamm
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StevenHW
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Randy
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 Posted: 09/16/18 10:29 pm ::: |
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| He probably doesn't but if there was reason for him to believe an invitation would be accepted (as was the case with Staley and USC) one would be offered.
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 09/17/18 1:24 am ::: |
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| StevenHW wrote: |
As if Trump really gives a damn about the WNBA...!  |
Trump was a star athlete and is a huge sports fan, including women's basketball, as Marla Maples and Ivanka both played the game. No rational White House, or any house, would invite guests who will publicly refuse, politicize or say negative things.
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pilight
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| Posted: 09/17/18 8:04 am ::: |
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| Trump has not invited any female athletes or teams for individual congratulations. He's only invited them in groups with male athletes and teams.
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Bob Lamm
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Bob Lamm
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tfan
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 09/18/18 1:17 am ::: |
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hyperetic
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| Posted: 09/18/18 3:02 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| StevenHW wrote: |
| As if Trump really gives a damn about the WNBA...! |
Trump was a star athlete and is a huge sports fan, including women's basketball, as Marla Maples and Ivanka both played the game. No rational White House, or any house, would invite guests who will publicly refuse, politicize or say negative things.
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I think Trump actually feels like there is a benefit to him if the "right" people disparage him. It seems to just increase his popularity among the voters that matter the most to him. He loves to use black athletes as targets (e.g. the NFL flag kneeling which was pretty much over before he brought it up again, or suggesting LeBron James is not very intelligent) to show his audience that he has the same prejudices that they have. |
There is a pattern to Trump’s disparagement that does not have anything to do with race. It goes like this: if you criticize him, he disparages you. LeBron James and Don Lemon had both criticized him. Tiger Woods did not criticize him when given the opportunity, so Trump said something nice about him.
As far as the criticism of kneelers, I believe that is a play to flag wavers and is unrelated to their race. I think Trump would have had the same reaction if NHL or NASCAR participants had started anthem kneeling. |
I don't think Kaepernick disparaged #45 before or after his onslaught. Others have, but not Kap. I disagree that it doesn't have anything to do with race. I will site your post. Notice any similarities in the people he has went after, either in retaliation as you say or straight up attack first. NASCAR and NHL, though becoming more diverse of late, are traditionally Caucasian dominated sports. As far as the Tiger thing, he may consider him one of his "good blacks". |
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Randy
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tfan
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| Posted: 09/18/18 8:03 pm ::: |
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| hyperetic wrote: |
I don't think Kaepernick disparaged #45 before or after his onslaught. Others have, but not Kap. I disagree that it doesn't have anything to do with race. I will site your post. Notice any similarities in the people he has went after, either in retaliation as you say or straight up attack first. NASCAR and NHL, though becoming more diverse of late, are traditionally Caucasian dominated sports. As far as the Tiger thing, he may consider him one of his "good blacks". |
Trump disparages Kaepernick because of the kneeling. If they tried to drum up patriotism before Broadway plays and white performers had started kneeling about some issue and it made headlines I think Trump would have made the same comments as with the NFL players. Those comments are probably playing to the flag waving part of the country who voted for him and he also may think he needs to speak out as head of the country to anthem protests.
Trump isn't disparaging any NASCAR and NHL participants, but they aren't criticizing him. If Dale Earnheart Jr. said something bad about Trump and it got a lot of publicity he would very likely get something nasty coming back at him. Trump has disparaged plenty of white people. After Trump made his tweet saying that Don Lemon was the dumbest man on television and he even made LeBron James look smart - which was hard to do, a Washington Post reporter looked for other times Trump had called someone dumb (they lumped together "stupid", "dumb", "dummy" and "low IQ") and they found that he has said it significantly more to white people. Before the election, it was almost all white people, and I think mostly Republicans who attacked him during the Republican primary campaign. After the election it appears to be 4 white people (one was Robert DeNiro who strongly criticized Trump) and Don Lemon (twice - criticizes Trump 5 nights a week), Maxine Waters (7 times - very vocal critic) and James.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/08/06/the-people-trump-has-called-stupid/?utm_term=.10f5d853958a
Last edited by tfan on 09/18/18 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 09/18/18 8:12 pm ::: |
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| Do we really have to debate here whether Donald Trump is racist? Wow.
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tfan
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| Posted: 09/18/18 8:15 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| Do we really have to debate here whether Donald Trump is racist? Wow. |
I don't think that racism is a binary thing. That is, where some people are, some people aren't. It is part of human nature to identify more with people like you. To quote a very liberal poster here "everyone is at least a little bit racist".
The issue becomes "how does the person deal with it". The debate here is on whether or not Trump attacks black people in situations where he wouldn't attack white people.
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NYSports56
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| Posted: 09/18/18 11:13 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| The debate here is on whether or not Trump attacks black people in situations where he wouldn't attack white people. |
That's a debate? It may be possible that President Trump would be just as critical of white people kneeling to protest black police brutality and racial profiling against whites. We'll never know, because there isn't any of that going around, is there? And that's sort of the point.
However, if you do want to talk about attacks, where should we start? Well, we can start with his childhood, when he was raised by a father whose racisim was so blatant that folk singer Woodie Guthrie wrote a song about it, mentioning him specifically by name:
I suppose that Old Man Trump knows just how much racial hate
He stirred up in that bloodpot of human hearts
When he drawed that color line
Here at his Beach Haven family project...
...Beach Haven is Trump’s Tower
Where no black folks come to roam
That wouldn't mean much if Trump hadn't followed directly in his father's footsteps. But Donald was sued successfully two separate times for discriminatory rental practices. That is an attack on the freedom of minorities that was not experienced by white people.
Donald Trump has repeatedly borne false witness against minority ethnic groups from the time he stepped into the political spotlight. Since he has been in office, he has used those false claims to justify passing laws that specifically deprive rights from the people he is slandering. Claims like the one where he said that Muslims in New Jersey were celebrating 9/11 by the thousands (and doubling down by repeating the lie after it was refuted). Claims that there was a muslim terror attack in Sweden when there was none. Claims from his staff that there were muslim terror attacks in Bowling Green and Atlanta. Let's not forget the repeated instances of false witness he bore against president Obama, with the birther movement and public promise that he would be producing documents that proved his point. He also viciously attacked Obama for his decision to negotiate with North Korea. This is an attack upon a black president that he did not make upon a white president (himself) for doing the exact same thing.
Trump's behavior with respect to the Central Park murders is also an example of his racism and his tactic of bearing false witness long after the truth was known. If you're not familiar with this incident, there was an assault/rape in Central Park that was originally attributed to a gang of five men: 4 black and 1 Hispanic. They were convicted under very questionable circumstances. Trump advocated the death penalty by taking out full-page ads in several of the major New York newspapers. Later, this conviction was overturned when a serial rapist confessed and his DNA proved to be a match. This was 2002. As late as 2016, Trump was repeating the lie that they were guilty and that the convictions should never have been overturned. How many white rapists, innocent or guilty, has Trump ever recommended receive the death penalty? Again, I see attacks against minorities that aren't happening against whites.
How about when he claimed that a judge should be disqualified from ruling on his Trump University lawsuit because he was Hispanic? In other words, if he's white, he can do his job, but if he's not, he can't? Sorry, I can't interpret this as anything other than racist no matter how much I play Devil's Advocate. Even if Trump's right that the judge would be biased, the only explanation for the bias would be that it's because Trump is a racist.
Trump repeatedly lumps groups of minorities under one single derogatory umbrella to dehumanize them and justify things like racial profiling and the treatment of refugees. They're all animals. They're all rapists. They're all criminals. They're all terrorists. Not only does this justify his own attacks against these groups, it emboldens those who would also commit racist attacks upon those people. This is perhaps more dangerous than any direct attacks that he makes.
How about the laws and policy he has been supporting and passing? Don't they affect minorities more negatively than they do the majority? Maybe that's not the justification behind all of these laws and policy, but it sure is convenient how it all works out that way, isn't it?
I'm not going to list any of the stuff that amounts to hearsay, but there are a whole lot of people who accuse him of some pretty despicably racist things. Disregard that stuff if you like, but it does fit the pattern quite well.
As a person, he is racist. As a politician, he is racist. He's also guilty of pandering to everyone whose views are the same as (or even more disgusting than) his own. There's a reason the Nazis and other white supremist groups in our country give him A+ ratings all the way. They view him as the first president who could make their dreams real. They are euphoric over everything he does, proclaiming things like the pardoning of Joseph Arpaio as victories for the white race. Is Trump fooling everyone in the white supremist movement, or is he really one of them the way they believe he is?
I don't think there's any debate on this subject, myself.
Last edited by NYSports56 on 09/19/18 12:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 09/19/18 12:06 am ::: |
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Thanks, nysports56, for the time and effort you put into this valuable post. There are always voices claiming that "it's not really about race." Not even Donald Trump's endless, blatant racism is apparently "really about race."
I will again commend Sue Bird and the Seattle Storm team and ownership for not wanting to go near the Racist in Chief in the White House.
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tfan
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| Posted: 09/19/18 8:12 am ::: |
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| NYSports56 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| The debate here is on whether or not Trump attacks black people in situations where he wouldn't attack white people. |
That's a debate? It may be possible that President Trump would be just as critical of white people kneeling to protest black police brutality and racial profiling against whites. We'll never know, because there isn't any of that going around, is there? And that's sort of the point. |
Not sure what "is the point". That they are protesting black oppression or black police brutality? I have never heard Trump mention that and looking just now can't find him saying anything other than that he feels they are disrespecting the flag, the anthem, and the country. Have you seen quotes from him that he is mad about _why_ they are protesting?
| Quote: |
...song about father being racist ....
That wouldn't mean much if Trump hadn't followed directly in his father's footsteps. But Donald was sued successfully two separate times for discriminatory rental practices. That is an attack on the freedom of minorities that was not experienced by white people. |
I can only find a 1973 lawsuit against Trump (president) and his father (CEO). What are the two later lawsuits you are referring to? But none of that pertains to whether Trump criticizes black people more - outside the pattern (you criticize him, he disparages you) - than he does white people.
| Quote: |
| ... bore false witness against Muslims... |
This is about him making personal attacks (and actually also - to appeal to voters). I can only think of him disparaging two American Muslims, the couple whose son died in military service that spoke at the Democratic convention. And his criticism fit the pattern - they publicly criticized him (and it got national attention), and he disparaged them.
| Quote: |
| He also viciously attacked Obama for his decision to negotiate with North Korea. This is an attack upon a black president that he did not make upon a white president (himself) for doing the exact same thing. |
I don't know what his vicious attack was (don't see a lot between the USA and North Korea during the Obama administration - certainly no meeting by Obama), but criticizing someone in the other party (assuming he was running at the time) and then doing the same thing is not an infrequent occurrence by politicians, regardless of the race involved. And Trump attacked a white man considered a war hero for "getting captured".
| Quote: |
| Trump's behavior with respect to the Central Park murders is also an example of his racism and his tactic of bearing false witness long after the truth was known. |
Trump's racism is not in question with me. I previously stated that everyone is racist to some extent. And Trump has used the phrase "the blacks" before, which is not something most people would say, and his appeal to them was less than stirring "What have you got to lose". But it isn't binary. Trump has been on friendly terms with Hershel Walker since the 1980's when they met as player/team owner till now and he endorsed Trump for president.
https://247sports.com/college/georgia/Bolt/Herschel-Walker-endorse-Donald-Trump-45978131/
And there is a picture of Trump at some affair with Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson from well before he ran for office and they are all chummy. And Omarosa first met him 15 years ago and could walk into the Oval Office at any time until Kelly took over as Chief of Staff. And once upon a time, black rappers were making numerous positive references to "obviously racist" Trump in their rap songs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WhGgHjwZxU
But in this Central Park Five example, I don't think he didn't admit he was wrong because of the race of the accused. There is another pattern that Trump follows - he never admits he was wrong and never apologizes. (Never not being never, but more than any other human would not do it).
| Quote: |
| Again, I see attacks against minorities that aren't happening against whites. |
That case did seem to get way more publicity than most and was of the type that appropriately gets labeled as "brutal". I was well aware of it despite being on the West Coast. But I would agree that Trump was more upset about it because it was 5 black males allegedly attacking a white female than if it had been a different racial makeup. But I wouldn't characterize that reaction as uncommon. But there was also a class factor. The woman was an investment banker. Trump and the wealthy are gonna get more upset when it was one of their own than if that woman worked at Pizza Hut.
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| How about when he claimed that a judge should be disqualified from ruling on his Trump University lawsuit because he was Hispanic? In other words, if he's white, he can do his job, but if he's not, he can't? |
Over 80% of Hispanics were repeatedly polling that they had an unfavorable impression of Trump. And the judge was not just Hispanic, but of Mexican heritage and his law group was giving a scholarship to an illegal alien. I see it as reasonable for Trump to suggest the judge would be biased. Polls showed it highly likely. All the people who were up in arms crying that "he's a judge, he will put aside his bias" are the same ones who cry about Supreme Court nominees who will biased one way or another (somebody is gonna now claim - they aren't biased, they just read the constitution differently, one literally and the other looks for things that aren't there - depending on which will match their bias in that case).
| Quote: |
| Sorry, I can't interpret this as anything other than racist no matter how much I play Devil's Advocate. Even if Trump's right that the judge would be biased, the only explanation for the bias would be that it's because Trump is a racist. |
The explanation would be because Trump disparaged illegal aliens in his campaign announcement and because he wants to build a wall to keep them out.
| Quote: |
| Trump repeatedly lumps groups of minorities under one single derogatory umbrella to dehumanize them and justify things like racial profiling and the treatment of refugees. They're all animals. They're all rapists. They're all criminals. They're all terrorists. |
He referred to MS-13 as animals. Nancy Pelosi incorrectly claimed he referred to all illegal aliens that way. He didn't say "all" with regard to illegal aliens, although his statement about some being good people had an "I assume". And he didn't say that all Muslims were terrorists.
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| Not only does this justify his own attacks against these groups, it emboldens those who would also commit racist attacks upon those people. This is perhaps more dangerous than any direct attacks that he makes. |
Trump didn't make an attack against all Muslims. He proposed a ban "until we can figure things out". He didn't mean "figure out if all Muslims are terrorists", but rather, which ones are (as in those involved in San Bernardino, Paris, Brussels). With regard to illegal aliens, Trump was suggesting that Mexico was getting rid of their worst ("When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best"). His statement was against illegal aliens - people breaking our immigration law (even though both parties condone it), not Mexicans.
| Quote: |
| How about the laws and policy he has been supporting and passing? Don't they affect minorities more negatively than they do the majority? Maybe that's not the justification behind all of these laws and policy, but it sure is convenient how it all works out that way, isn't it? |
What laws are you referring to?
| Quote: |
| I'm not going to list any of the stuff that amounts to hearsay, but there are a whole lot of people who accuse him of some pretty despicable racist things. Disregard that stuff if you like, but it does fit the pattern quite well. |
I am talking about his public pattern. Almost everyone has a much worse private pattern with regard to "racist things".
| Quote: |
As a person, he is racist.
As a politician, he is racist. |
I know that the 6 or 7 countries Muslim ban is considered racist despite the terrorist basis, but what else has he done that you feel is racist as far as political policies and actions?
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| He's also guilty of pandering to everyone whose views are the same as (or even more disgusting than) his own. There's a reason the Nazis and other white supremacist groups in our country give him A+ ratings all the way. They view him as the first president who could make their dreams real. They are euphoric over everything he does, proclaiming things like the pardoning of Joseph Arpaio as victories for the white race. Is Trump fooling everyone in the white supremacist movement, or is he really one of them the way they believe he is? |
I would think that the #1 priority of any white supremacist would be to stop our policy of endless immigration (which is almost all non-white). Trump hasn't proposed that (and strangely, I don't hear about white supremacists calling for it - nor do the frequently labeled as racist Republicans), so they will become a minority just as fast under Trump (unless he can get a wall built) as they would have under Clinton. So I guess he gets high marks for wanting to semi-enforce immigration law (and drug trafficking) with a border wall. But no one calls the law racist, so I don't see building a wall as racist. So the only policy I could see someone claiming is racist and is what they support him for, is a 6 or 7 country temporary Muslim travel ban. But in any event, it is actually a logical fallacy to claim Trump is bad because he gets support from a hated group.
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| I don't think there's any debate on this subject, myself. |
I am not debating whether Trump is racist or not. In my opinion, just the fact that he is a human being makes that true. The question was whether he publicly criticizes black people more than white people - outside his normal pattern of "you criticize me and I will disparage you", and does so to appeal to voters.
Last edited by tfan on 09/19/18 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 09/19/18 9:05 am ::: |
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| Thanks again, nysports56. Still with you.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 09/19/18 10:56 am ::: |
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| Racism doesn't have to be absolute. Maybe the better word here is bias. People can have friends in a group and still discriminate against that same group. They just see their friends as exceptions. When Trump referred to immigrants from "shithole" countries, that was not a response to criticism by any individual. It was simply ingrained prejudice against entire populations -- his feeling that people from parts of the world made up predominantly of racial minorities are inherently undesirable. Now, most of these countries are also impoverished so I suppose you could argue that it's a prejudice against poverty rather than race -- a class-based bias. However, when someone takes a broad-brush approach in denigrating large swaths of the world's population, I doubt that person is interested in making subtle distinctions or parsing his own motivations. Stereotyping is a lazy, short-hand way of dealing with people. It allows you to quickly lump individuals into categories of good or bad. Race may not be the only criteria, but it is surely a major one. That other variables exist doesn't mean that race isn't overweighted as a factor in the calculus of stereotyping.
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Lib Fan
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| Posted: 09/19/18 5:48 pm ::: |
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While I agree with certain posts I must say Politics and Sports dont mix
I think Area 51 would be a better place for this continuing thread
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 09/19/18 6:29 pm ::: |
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| Lib Fan wrote: |
While I agree with certain posts I must say Politics and Sports dont mix
I think Area 51 would be a better place for this continuing thread |
I began this thread with a link indicating that according to Sue Bird the Seattle Storm weren't being invited to the White House to celebrate their WNBA championship and wouldn't go if invited. I see that as quite relevant on a message board about the WNBA.
Beyond that, I believe it is impossible to separate politics and sports in a culture where athletes are affected by sexism, racism, anti-Semitism, homophobia, and other poisons.
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Hoopsmom
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| Posted: 09/21/18 10:10 am ::: |
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| I think that the Seattle Storm coming out in public saying they wouldn’t go even if they were invited is extremely disrespectful to our nation, and especially to many, many fans of the WNBA. Keep your politics to yourselves. We don’t watch you, support you, buy tickets and t-shirts and other merchandise, for your political views. We watch you and pay money for you to entertain us by playing a basketball game. Period.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 09/21/18 10:42 am ::: |
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| Hoopsmom wrote: |
| I think that the Seattle Storm coming out in public saying they wouldn’t go even if they were invited is extremely disrespectful to our nation, and especially to many, many fans of the WNBA. Keep your politics to yourselves. We don’t watch you, support you, buy tickets and t-shirts and other merchandise, for your political views. We watch you and pay money for you to entertain us by playing a basketball game. Period. |
I have to question whether it's true that "many, many fans of the WNBA" feel as Hoopsmom does. Is there evidence of this? Any survey showing this? Any credible reports of lots of WNBA fans who've stopped attending games, turned in their tickets, held protests outside arenas, because players have spoken out?
Hoopsmom surely isn't alone in her views. But I believe she's using the term "we" rather casually. I am definitely not part of that "we." I was very moved when players from my team (the New York Liberty) and other teams made clear their support for Black Lives Matter. I was deeply impressed in 2017 when I read that Breanna Stewart had gone to LAX Airport to join a protest against the racist immigration policies of the Trump administration. I support Sue Bird and the Seattle Storm in their decision that they won't go to the White House if invited.
I say to professional athletes: speak out, just as I have here, just as Hoopsmom and many others have here. Indeed, there are athletes who agree with Hoopsmom who've spoken out and they should.
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Silky Johnson
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| Posted: 09/21/18 11:06 am ::: |
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| Hoopsmom wrote: |
| I think that the Seattle Storm coming out in public saying they wouldn’t go even if they were invited is extremely disrespectful to our nation, and especially to many, many fans of the WNBA. Keep your politics to yourselves. We don’t watch you, support you, buy tickets and t-shirts and other merchandise, for your political views. We watch you and pay money for you to entertain us by playing a basketball game. Period. |
Yeah, no. I feel about this post similar to the way I felt when people first started whining about Kaepernick taking a knee, and how he was "disrespecting the troops." And I was just sitting here, reading that and thinking to myself, "But wait, I'm the troops, and I don't feel disrespected."
Granted, I am no fan of the Storm, in particular, but they have my unqualified endorsement on this. Would that there were more athletes with the constitution and the commitment to speak out. I mean, why shouldn't they be encouraged to speak out? They're (mostly) Americans, too.
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