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Randy



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PostPosted: 12/06/18 8:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
toad455 wrote:
https://herosports.com/wnba/derek-fisher-hire-los-angeles-sparks-ruru
Quote:
Curt Miller coached in the women's game for 25 years before becoming the head coach of the Connecticut Sun and was named the 2017 WNBA Coach of the Year.
Can you imagine a WNBA player landing an NBA head coaching position without ever being an assistant in the men's game?


Is there really an important difference between coaching men and coaching women? It's still coaching basketball, right?
How many years of coaching women did Paul Westhead have before coming to the Phoenix Mercury? where he had an amazing rapport with the players, and of course delivered a memorable championship.

I don't believe women can't coach men, and I don't believe men can't coach women. If you know the game of basketball, and you have the ability to get your players on the same page, then you can coach.

And again, as with my tongue-in-cheek Knicks post, I'm not saying Fisher is an ideal pick, nor am I saying that the process that led to his hiring was smart or fair. I'm just challenging what I think is a sexist assumption. Just as I think it is sexism that's causing Becky Hammon to serve an unnecessarily long apprenticeship in the men's game.


The rules are about the same but the men and women's games are different.

For example - above the rim v. below the rim play. You don't draw up dunk plays for women. Also - the math of shooting and range differs. Men hit higher % on long range which produces a different style in designing plays with different options. Accordingly defense differs in what to allow v. what to stop. In the NBA rim stoppers seems to be less valuable now, and 3 and d guys are in vogue. In the WNBA - teams still rely on Griner, Fowles, Jones, Williams to block a lot of shots. I can't say how important this kind of stuff might be, but there is a difference. Further - unless he was die hard WNBA fan in his spare time he has little knowledge of what various players can do, what their tendencies are, how to best defend them, etc. Finally, what it take to motivate, cultivate and develop women players may not be the same as for men. I agree that both men and women can coach the other sex, but experience in the game and league you are in matters.

Now, had he proven to be a really successful coach in the men's game that might be different except he'd never be in the WNBA now. Even if he looked mediocre as hell he would have probably gotten an NBA AC job - which probably pays a lot more than a WNBA HC. Bottom line - there is little to recommend this guy. But, I was not to wild about Collen getting hired so what do I know? He could be another Bill Laimbeer.


Richyyy



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PostPosted: 12/06/18 9:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
pilight wrote:
Randy wrote:
Can you imagine an NBA player being names HC of an NBA club with no experience as an assistant or any coaching experience


Sure, it happens all the time.


I know it has happened recently with Steve Kerr and Mark Jackson, both hired by the Warriors. In thinking about who any others might have been I came up with ... Derek Fisher, who was hired by the Knicks as head coach with no coaching experience.

Jason Kidd comes to mind. The Lakers did it with Magic Johnson himself a million years ago. It's usually guys who've developed a reputation as a 'coach on the floor' during their playing days, so it's assumed that they can slide onto the sidelines and become actual coaches without much pause.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 12/06/18 10:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
pilight wrote:
Randy wrote:
Can you imagine an NBA player being names HC of an NBA club with no experience as an assistant or any coaching experience


Sure, it happens all the time.


I know it has happened recently with Steve Kerr and Mark Jackson, both hired by the Warriors. In thinking about who any others might have been I came up with ... Derek Fisher, who was hired by the Knicks as head coach with no coaching experience.


Doc Rivers got his first head coaching job with no experience



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Randy



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PostPosted: 12/06/18 10:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Like I always say - often wrong, never in doubt..... Embarassed


Luuuc



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 4:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
The rules are about the same but the men and women's games are different.

For example - above the rim v. below the rim play. You don't draw up dunk plays for women. Also - the math of shooting and range differs. Men hit higher % on long range which produces a different style in designing plays with different options. Accordingly defense differs in what to allow v. what to stop. In the NBA rim stoppers seems to be less valuable now, and 3 and d guys are in vogue. In the WNBA - teams still rely on Griner, Fowles, Jones, Williams to block a lot of shots. I can't say how important this kind of stuff might be, but there is a difference. Further - unless he was die hard WNBA fan in his spare time he has little knowledge of what various players can do, what their tendencies are, how to best defend them, etc. Finally, what it take to motivate, cultivate and develop women players may not be the same as for men. I agree that both men and women can coach the other sex, but experience in the game and league you are in matters.


I'm not really buying most of those points about the differences in the games. Yes a lot of men can dunk and throw down an alley-oop, but the same play that leads to those outcomes for a man can lead to an easy layup in the WNBA. Math & shooting range is irrelevant because in both genders of the sport you've got players who are gonna hit their threes and players who aren't. That stuff is individual differences between players, not general rules for genders. The guys generally have a little extra range which opens up the court, but they're also generally quicker to cover the distance. The differences are nothing that a coach can't allow for when designing his plays, just as an NBA-only coach would still adjust what's in his playbook depending on the strengths of the individuals in his particular team.
So yeah - there are differences of course - but they're pretty minimal in the scheme of things. When you're talking about 10 people on a court using the same methods to escape defenders and get shots up, any decent coach should have no trouble adjusting between those 10 people being male or female IMO. Most of the adjustment is already ingrained in the respective players.



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WfanFrJmp



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 6:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
Randy wrote:
The rules are about the same but the men and women's games are different.

For example - above the rim v. below the rim play. You don't draw up dunk plays for women. Also - the math of shooting and range differs. Men hit higher % on long range which produces a different style in designing plays with different options. Accordingly defense differs in what to allow v. what to stop. In the NBA rim stoppers seems to be less valuable now, and 3 and d guys are in vogue. In the WNBA - teams still rely on Griner, Fowles, Jones, Williams to block a lot of shots. I can't say how important this kind of stuff might be, but there is a difference. Further - unless he was die hard WNBA fan in his spare time he has little knowledge of what various players can do, what their tendencies are, how to best defend them, etc. Finally, what it take to motivate, cultivate and develop women players may not be the same as for men. I agree that both men and women can coach the other sex, but experience in the game and league you are in matters.


I'm not really buying most of those points about the differences in the games. Yes a lot of men can dunk and throw down an alley-oop, but the same play that leads to those outcomes for a man can lead to an easy layup in the WNBA. Math & shooting range is irrelevant because in both genders of the sport you've got players who are gonna hit their threes and players who aren't. That stuff is individual differences between players, not general rules for genders. The guys generally have a little extra range which opens up the court, but they're also generally quicker to cover the distance. The differences are nothing that a coach can't allow for when designing his plays, just as an NBA-only coach would still adjust what's in his playbook depending on the strengths of the individuals in his particular team.
So yeah - there are differences of course - but they're pretty minimal in the scheme of things. When you're talking about 10 people on a court using the same methods to escape defenders and get shots up, any decent coach should have no trouble adjusting between those 10 people being male or female IMO. Most of the adjustment is already ingrained in the respective players.


Exclamation Agreed!


Randy



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 8:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
any decent coach should have no trouble adjusting between those 10 people being male or female IMO.


The key words are in bold. We'll find out. So no excuses for Fisher. Sparks should start winning at least the same rate as last year because there are no excuses about being in a different league with different players, different skills and different sexes. Smile With any luck at all he will do just well as he did with the Knicks.


Luuuc



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 9:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
any decent coach should have no trouble adjusting between those 10 people being male or female IMO.


The key words are in bold. We'll find out. So no excuses for Fisher. Sparks should start winning at least the same rate as last year because there are no excuses about being in a different league with different players, different skills and different sexes. Smile With any luck at all he will do just well as he did with the Knicks.


The only excuse I'd give Fisher is the same one I'd give any new coach, which is that he won't know the players and their tendencies as well as Agler after spending 4 years with them. But other than that, yep, no excuses.
Conversely 4 years with the same coach might have some players tuning out, which might be what contributed to this move being made. So in that regard Fisher should have an advantage.

I thought the Sparks underachieved this year. If it's because things were stale then there's no reason they shouldn't be aiming for the finals in 2019.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 10:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
Randy wrote:
The rules are about the same but the men and women's games are different.

For example - above the rim v. below the rim play. You don't draw up dunk plays for women. Also - the math of shooting and range differs. Men hit higher % on long range which produces a different style in designing plays with different options. Accordingly defense differs in what to allow v. what to stop. In the NBA rim stoppers seems to be less valuable now, and 3 and d guys are in vogue. In the WNBA - teams still rely on Griner, Fowles, Jones, Williams to block a lot of shots. I can't say how important this kind of stuff might be, but there is a difference. Further - unless he was die hard WNBA fan in his spare time he has little knowledge of what various players can do, what their tendencies are, how to best defend them, etc. Finally, what it take to motivate, cultivate and develop women players may not be the same as for men. I agree that both men and women can coach the other sex, but experience in the game and league you are in matters.


I'm not really buying most of those points about the differences in the games. Yes a lot of men can dunk and throw down an alley-oop, but the same play that leads to those outcomes for a man can lead to an easy layup in the WNBA. Math & shooting range is irrelevant because in both genders of the sport you've got players who are gonna hit their threes and players who aren't. That stuff is individual differences between players, not general rules for genders. The guys generally have a little extra range which opens up the court, but they're also generally quicker to cover the distance. The differences are nothing that a coach can't allow for when designing his plays, just as an NBA-only coach would still adjust what's in his playbook depending on the strengths of the individuals in his particular team.
So yeah - there are differences of course - but they're pretty minimal in the scheme of things. When you're talking about 10 people on a court using the same methods to escape defenders and get shots up, any decent coach should have no trouble adjusting between those 10 people being male or female IMO. Most of the adjustment is already ingrained in the respective players.


At the most basic level, basketball is basketball so the fundamentals always apply.

But there are subtle differences between the men's and the women's games that require adjustment. I don't think dunking is a big deal in terms of promoting the WNBA, but that said, it's a very high-percentage shot -- and a 6-8 man who can jump is going to make a higher percentage of close-in shots than a 6-0 woman who can't jump as well. So in designing an offense, those close-in shots are indeed still good ones, but not as good in the women's game as in the men's.

Defensively, the length of male players and the fact they are quicker and more explosive than women means that certain things that don't work in the men's game will work in the women's game.

All that said, these are tweaks, and presumably Fisher will have assistants, not to mention players, who can help him adjust.



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Randy



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 10:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It will be interesting. Will he be Paul Westhead or Nolan Richardson?


Shades



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 11:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
It will be interesting. Will he be Paul Westhead or Nolan Richardson?



I’m surprised nobody’s mentioned Bill Laimbeer. His first coaching job was as a 2002 mid-season replacement for the Detroit Shock. In his first full season, he won a championship. He tried the NBA as an assistant coach for the Minnesota Timberwolves (may have helped Reeve land a job with the Lynx), and that didn’t work out, so not having success at the NBA level doesn’t necessarily mean anything at the WNBA level.

The players seem to be enthusiastic. That’s the most important thing. I’m actually getting the vibe that Parker was force behind replacing Agler with Fisher, that she wanted it to happen.



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Randy



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 2:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Randy wrote:
It will be interesting. Will he be Paul Westhead or Nolan Richardson?



I’m surprised nobody’s mentioned Bill Laimbeer.


Except me.


Shades



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 2:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
Shades wrote:
Randy wrote:
It will be interesting. Will he be Paul Westhead or Nolan Richardson?



I’m surprised nobody’s mentioned Bill Laimbeer.


Except me.


Oh, I guess you did as a parting counterpoint to your whole big argument supporting the nonsense in the hero sports article. You should have expanded on Laimbeer like I did. Wink



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Genero36



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 3:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

To Candace and the ladies, good luck with this douche bag.



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 4:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Penny Toler confirmed in the press conference that no other candidates were considered



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 4:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Toler said all the players from last year want to come back.



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 5:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Penny Toler confirmed in the press conference that no other candidates were considered

Gotta love that 'comprehensive search to identify the next Sparks head coach' that they announced would be occurring in the press release about Agler's resignation. A press release that can no longer be found anywhere on the Sparks website, as far as I can see.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 6:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Maybe Toler was rushing getting a new head coach? Can't imagine there were NO OTHER candidates.



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Luuuc



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 6:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
It will be interesting. Will he be Paul Westhead or Nolan Richardson?

I'm thinking Dee Brown, but for the sake of the WNBA I hope I'm wrong.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 6:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
Randy wrote:
It will be interesting. Will he be Paul Westhead or Nolan Richardson?

I'm thinking Dee Brown, but for the sake of the WNBA I hope I'm wrong.


I was thinking more Brian Winters, who also had a bad NBA record (worse than Fisher's)



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 8:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
pilight wrote:
Penny Toler confirmed in the press conference that no other candidates were considered

Gotta love that 'comprehensive search to identify the next Sparks head coach' that they announced would be occurring in the press release about Agler's resignation. A press release that can no longer be found anywhere on the Sparks website, as far as I can see.


Hilarious. They must have hired three different headhunting experts to conduct that "comprehensive search" that came up with only one candidate.
A candidate that did a terrible job in his only coaching position.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 12/07/18 10:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fisher interview with LaChina Robinson

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=25479377



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PostPosted: 12/08/18 6:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Genero36 wrote:
To Candace and the ladies, good luck with this douche bag.


Why is he a douchebag? Because of the DUI? Or having a relationship with his former teammates ex? Wouldnt call him a douchebag for that. A very big mistake yes but douchebag is a bit harsh..



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pilight



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PostPosted: 12/08/18 9:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
Genero36 wrote:
To Candace and the ladies, good luck with this douche bag.


Why is he a douchebag? Because of the DUI? Or having a relationship with his former teammates ex? Wouldnt call him a douchebag for that. A very big mistake yes but douchebag is a bit harsh..


Maybe because he sold out the NBA players union during the lockout? He was president of the union and reportedly went behind the back of the executive director to negotiate a deal with a lower percentage of revenue for the players.



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PostPosted: 12/08/18 11:07 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
Randy wrote:
It will be interesting. Will he be Paul Westhead or Nolan Richardson?

I'm thinking Dee Brown, but for the sake of the WNBA I hope I'm wrong.


I was thinking more Brian Winters, who also had a bad NBA record (worse than Fisher's)


Or perhaps more Henry Bibby or Jellybean Bryant.


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