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toad455



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 5:46 pm    ::: New York Liberty 2019 Reply Reply with quote

heck, the other thread is long enough and were basically talking about 2019 and beyond anyways.

Keepers: Charles(UFA but likely cored), Nurse, Boyd(RFA), Zahui B(RFA), Hartley(RFA), Zellous(UFA?).
Bubble: Rodgers, Prince(UFA?), Stokes(signed, but tradable).
Must Go: Vaughn, Coleman, R. Allen



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Rock Hard



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 5:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Finding new owners must be priority number one for the Liberty. Everything else can be fixed or adjusted once that happens.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 6:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I hope the Plaisance airplane report comes true that Liberty will play in Brooklyn.



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 6:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
I hope the Plaisance airplane report comes true that Liberty will play in Brooklyn.


Living off an airplane report #StoryOfALibertyFan



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Chip



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 6:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Rock Hard wrote:
Finding new owners must be priority number one for the Liberty. Everything else can be fixed or adjusted once that happens.

CO-SIGN


Shades



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 6:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
I hope the Plaisance airplane report comes true that Liberty will play in Brooklyn.


She probably reads Barcoff’s forum. Razz



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 6:24 pm    ::: Re: New York Liberty 2019 Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
heck, the other thread is long enough and were basically talking about 2019 and beyond anyways.

Keepers: Charles(UFA but likely cored), Nurse, Boyd(RFA), Zahui B(RFA), Hartley(RFA), Zellous(UFA?).
Bubble: Rodgers, Prince(UFA?), Stokes(signed, but tradable).
Must Go: Vaughn, Coleman, R. Allen


I put my list toward the end of the other thread, but I'll adapt here to your format. I agree with you except....

For me, Hartley isn't a Keeper. I'm OK if she's back and OK if she isn't. I definitely view Stokes as a Keeper.

I won't say that Katie Smith "Must Go," but I'd much prefer to see a new and experienced coach.

My Must Go list includes Prince and Rodgers. Time to make a new start in the backcourt. And, above all, my Must Go list includes Hideous Lord Jimmy and sexual harasser Isiah. I don't expect them to be gone, but one can hope.



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Randy



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 6:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The lottery now pretty much needs to be a two year stay if it is going to do much good (barring exception luck). Might as well keep Smith and a lot of the other players that seem marginal. I would get rid of Coleman, Prince and maybe Zealous though. These players will likely never get better. They may leave anyway.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 7:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
The lottery now pretty much needs to be a two year stay if it is going to do much good (barring exception luck). Might as well keep Smith and a lot of the other players that seem marginal. I would get rid of Coleman, Prince and maybe Zealous though. These players will likely never get better. They may leave anyway.


I don't understand the logic of keeping players that seem marginal unless they are young players who genuinely may get better. I don't see 2019 being a terrific season for the Liberty no matter what. So I'd mainly clean house and get a look at some different players.

And I'd only keep Katie Smith if you really think she's on the road to becoming an excellent coach. Perhaps that's true, perhaps that isn't. I am very skeptical.



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Lib Fan



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 7:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:


And I'd only keep Katie Smith if you really think she's on the road to becoming an excellent coach. Perhaps that's true, perhaps that isn't. I am very skeptical.


so was Patty Coyle on her way to becoming an excellent coach Rolling Eyes



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Randy



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 7:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Randy wrote:
The lottery now pretty much needs to be a two year stay if it is going to do much good (barring exception luck). Might as well keep Smith and a lot of the other players that seem marginal. I would get rid of Coleman, Prince and maybe Zealous though. These players will likely never get better. They may leave anyway.


I don't understand the logic of keeping players that seem marginal unless they are young players who genuinely may get better. I don't see 2019 being a terrific season for the Liberty no matter what. So I'd mainly clean house and get a look at some different players.

And I'd only keep Katie Smith if you really think she's on the road to becoming an excellent coach. Perhaps that's true, perhaps that isn't. I am very skeptical.


You do have to fields 11 or 12 players and if you don't keep some of the marginal ones the replacements may be limited to castaways from other teams. Plus, some players do take a long time to grow into the job. Jaz Thomas for example, took a long time grow into the PG role. Now - if the Liberty had the opportunity to sign someone clearly better than some of the current Liberty players, or younger players with a higher ceiling then by all means they should. Until the ownership situation is resolved then signing better players or a better coach seems difficult.


NYSports56



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 8:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:

I don't understand the logic of keeping players that seem marginal unless they are young players who genuinely may get better. I don't see 2019 being a terrific season for the Liberty no matter what. So I'd mainly clean house and get a look at some different players.

How many different players are out there? Who's going to want to come here?


myrtle



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 8:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If they stay in outer Mongolia (relatively speaking) I would imagine that any Liberty UFA who can escape, will, and any good non-Liberty UFA will choose someplace else...so the landscape is bleak. And it wouldn't surprise me if Tina demanded a trade. She's done it before...



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 9:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYSports56 wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:

I don't understand the logic of keeping players that seem marginal unless they are young players who genuinely may get better. I don't see 2019 being a terrific season for the Liberty no matter what. So I'd mainly clean house and get a look at some different players.

How many different players are out there? Who's going to want to come here?


Hey, I'm not talking about recruiting 60 new players for a pro football team. Let's say that seven of the current Liberty players return in 2019. So New York would need five new players. That would very likely include two draft picks. So then the Liberty would only need THREE new players obtained through trades or free agency. Sorry, but I don't see that it would be all that difficult to find three new players.

As for "Who's going to want to come here?", if the Liberty can't do any better, then I'd rather see young, hungry, marginal WNBA players who may or may not ever get better than veterans on the down side of their careers. I only exclude Charles and Zellous from that generalization... and I'm skeptical Zellous will return.



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Nixtreefan



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 9:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Just spit balling, but I think Tina will stay if she gets who she wants on the team. She would rather be closer to home than half way cross the country as she seems to have stuck it out this long.


NYSports56



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 9:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
If they stay in outer Mongolia (relatively speaking) I would imagine that any Liberty UFA who can escape, will, and any good non-Liberty UFA will choose someplace else...so the landscape is bleak. And it wouldn't surprise me if Tina demanded a trade. She's done it before...

The Mongolia Liberty--maybe they should call themselves that until they come back from exile! Smile

Yes, Tina has demanded a trade before, but that was to be in her home town. It would be different if she demanded a trade to leave her home town. Unless her #1 priority is to win a championship before she retires, I don't think she's going to demand a trade.

What's her contract situation right now? I thought she was a free agent, but I don't pay that much attention to contracts.

Whether Tina demands it or not, if the Liberty can get back some young talent with genuine star potential, they should consider trading her. I don't know that they'll be able to build a contender around her any time soon.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 10:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't think fans should simply assume that free agents would never consider the Liberty. Remember, WCC isn't that bad compared with a lot of foreign arenas. That doesn't prevent American players from playing overseas. Yes, the arena situation is definitely a negative, and I think the ownership situation is an even bigger negative. However, when all is said and done, money and playing time are probably the biggest considerations for a young free agent. If the Liberty are willing to give a bench player a chance to be a starter and make considerably more money, I'm sure some people would seriously consider their offer. After all, it's just 17 days a year at WCC for maybe 5 hours. The team still uses the same training facilities that they've always shared with the Knicks. They still live in the same area of Westchester, which is supposed to be fairly nice. And it's still within a reasonable commute to Manhattan if players want a little excitement on their days off. So no, they haven't moved to Outer Mongolia. For most purposes, they haven't moved at all.

And playing at WCC does have some advantages. It's close to the training facility and player housing, so they save time traveling to and from the arena. I know in the past there have been occasions when the Knicks rented hotel rooms across the street from MSG to take naps and save travel time going back to Westchester. Roundtrip, that's probably 2-3 hours saved. Also, I don't know if the LIberty have done it, but in theory they could travel out pf White Plains Airport rather than use one of the Big Three. That should save them both local travel time and wait time because it's usually easier to get through smaller airports. WCC sucks for the fans, and it's not great for players from an ego standpoint, but from a day-to-day living perspective it ain't that bad.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 10:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Agree with the above. In general, whether it's MSG or WCC, the state of the team is probably a greater factor. In general, things like coaching philosophy, money, playing time, winning and stability (as in knowing we will have a team) would be greater factors.

Here's my view of 2019:

KEEP: Tina, Nurse, Stokes, Zahui, Boyd, Allen, Sugar, Hartley
BUBBLE: Zellous, Piph
OUT: Coleman, Vaughn

As for some of the "keeps", we saw how well Stokes played in the last few games when she was finally 100%. Even if we draft a post, she's a great player to come off the bench when healthy. Regarding Hartley, she drives me bananas. I would not mind seeing her replaced by a better player. The problem is finding a PG is awfully, awfully difficult. We aren't likely to luck into a Tanisha Wright type who happened to perfectly fit the system as a non-pg "point guard". We aren't drafting a lottery PG. So barring a trade of some magnitude, I think she is a Lib next year. Sugar also drives me bananas. I also think her trade value is at its lowest point. I do think there are teams (LA, Minnesota) that would have real use for her. But unless she can be dealt for some type of value I'd rather keep her at least as a spark off the bench on defense. Since I'm not sure she has much trade value, I added her as a "keep". Regarding Bec, I think they have plans for her in 2019. They posted her up a ton in the final few games and she actually looked pretty good doing it. She may still have upside and she can at least be a decent hybrid 3/4 defender. May as well keep her. If Z goes, someone other than Nurse and possibly a draftee has to be able to play SF.

Z is a bubble player for the obvious reason of being a UFA. Ditto Piph. I could see Piph potentially being back for one reason. To keep Tina happy, as they are clearly friends.

The two outs are obvious. If either is on the Liberty next year I may need potent tranquilizers.

I think 2-3 new players is your most realistic goal. Your lottery pick will make the team. Your second rounder is probable but not a guarantee to make it. That means you need 1-2 more new players, likely via FA unless there's some suddenly creative roster movement. I think adding one FA is realistic, just because there usually aren't that many quality ones, and most stay with their teams. Unless it's someone like Wright who wanted to play in NY, getting more than one is not likely.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 11:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LV doesn't have a 2nd round pick and ours is really good #14 in what looks like a deep draft could have some value.

I am still convinced that BL will not stick with Jefferson

So is something like Hartley and our 2nd round pick for Jefferson in the realm of possibility. (Jefferson/Boyd fastest PG duo in the league could be something?)

PS I actually really like Hartley, even though she high dribbles and has lapse when she is playing PG and gets pick pocketed. I am fine with her as a 6 woman some time PG some time shooter off the bench, and she is definitely under contract so I say we keep her unless an opportunity like this come along.

I would probably consider the same trade pieces for Copper as well

Or ISM




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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 11:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think it's a lock Laimbeer would move Jefferson. Not only because she's small. While it's possible she could return to form, I thought her explosiveness was minimal this year coming off injury and she was unfathomably awful defensively. Lacking quickness to stay in front of opponents as well as lacking strength to avoid being outmuscled. If you trade for her, there's a legitimate risk.

She is, however a true PG. And I'd be happy to move Hartley and pick 14 for her but that's it. Nothing more. And if that's not enough, so be it. To me, she's too risky right now.

I'd be more open to Plum, who I think will eventually be an elite offensive player in the right system with potentially passable defense in the right scheme and with rim protection behind her. She really struggled with quick offensive players, especially late in the season I thought. But, she's surprisingly good at pushing tempo and seems to know the LV offense really well. Really good ATO too. I doubt she would be attainable at this point. Her strengths outweighed her weaknesses this year and I think she did enough things to engage herself successfully in Laimbeer's offense that she'd be very difficult to acquire.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 11:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I think it's a lock Laimbeer would move Jefferson. Not only because she's small. While it's possible she could return to form, I thought her explosiveness was minimal this year coming off injury and she was unfathomably awful defensively. Lacking quickness to stay in front of opponents as well as lacking strength to avoid being outmuscled. If you trade for her, there's a legitimate risk.

She is, however a true PG. And I'd be happy to move Hartley and pick 14 for her but that's it. Nothing more. And if that's not enough, so be it. To me, she's too risky right now.


But that risk is the only thing that might make her gettable which is the kind of move NY will probably have to make to have any serious chance at improvement even if the move is a bust.

I was wrong about ISM being a RFA so I would try the same trade for her.

And as I said Copper.

Harrison is a RFA so I would probably at least make Laimbeer think about it by offering her the max. Considering she never played in LV he might not miss her enough to match. She isn't really a center but I think she is better than Stokes or Zahui B and pretty much falls in the same size range and would at least give us a little depth in the post.


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PostPosted: 08/20/18 11:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not going all in on my 2019 plan yet but some 11/12 spot players I would look to bring to camp

Chong, Burdick, S. Thomas, Muldrow


root_thing



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 12:19 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If Jefferson has lost her quickness, I'd rather keep #14 and use it on Kea if she's available. Jefferson's entire game is based on quickness. When that's gone, there's no Jefferson left. Otherwise, I'd be fine with bringing in a bunch of people and throwing them up against the wall to see who sticks: Chong, Goodwin, Peterson, etc. And then there's the ghost of Olcay Cakir. If Cakir is coming sooner or later, it's already too late for soon and soon it will be too late for later.



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 8:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Your backup point guard does not have to be amazing. She just needs to be competent at bringing the ball up the court and to not turn the ball over to the other team.



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 9:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Rock Hard wrote:
Your backup point guard does not have to be amazing. She just needs to be competent at bringing the ball up the court and to not turn the ball over to the other team.


It’s nice having amazing PG on the bench just in case your main PG goes down and you still want a legitimate chance at a championship. Isn’t it usually pretty nice having Faulkner backing up Vandersloot.... and there doesn’t appear to be any ego issues? Nice thing to have. Although Faulkner seems to have fallen to the serious injury bug lately.



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