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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 01/18/19 11:46 am ::: |
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As far as I can tell, Katie Smith is searching for a style of play. It seemed like the Liberty started the season with a lot of players going one-on-one, and if they couldn't beat their defender they'd hoist up a three. Then for a while, it looked like they were trying to go back to grind it out basketball but their defense and rebounding were no longer up to snuff. With Stokes ineffective due to injury or erosion of skill, Vaughn and Zahui B played increased minutes. Both are terrible help defenders, often failing to rotate, which left their perimeter teammates exposed. And both were bad rebounders. Surprisingly, only 24 WNBA post players averaged over 15 mpg. Among them, Vaughn was 22nd in rebounding percentage and Zahui B. was 23rd. Anyway, when that didn't work, Smith switched to her wave theory which involved hockey line changes. Anybody not named Charles played roughly 15 minutes each. Finally, with injuries to the veterans, she either willingly or unwillingly threw her younger players on the court. I'm not sure if there was a specific style of play or system. It was more like let's see what we've got.
Which is why it's impossible to guess what kind of player moves the Liberty are going to make. Is management merely reshaping the same base or are they totally rebuilding? But either way, what are they trying to become?
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Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012 Posts: 2539
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63712
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Posted: 01/18/19 3:33 pm ::: |
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That’s why a good coach plays to the strengths of their best players instead of forcing a system on them that doesn’t work with them.
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 01/19/19 1:49 pm ::: |
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root_thing wrote: |
As far as I can tell, Katie Smith is searching for a style of play. It seemed like the Liberty started the season with a lot of players going one-on-one, and if they couldn't beat their defender they'd hoist up a three. Then for a while, it looked like they were trying to go back to grind it out basketball but their defense and rebounding were no longer up to snuff. With Stokes ineffective due to injury or erosion of skill, Vaughn and Zahui B played increased minutes. Both are terrible help defenders, often failing to rotate, which left their perimeter teammates exposed. And both were bad rebounders. Surprisingly, only 24 WNBA post players averaged over 15 mpg. Among them, Vaughn was 22nd in rebounding percentage and Zahui B. was 23rd. Anyway, when that didn't work, Smith switched to her wave theory which involved hockey line changes. Anybody not named Charles played roughly 15 minutes each. Finally, with injuries to the veterans, she either willingly or unwillingly threw her younger players on the court. I'm not sure if there was a specific style of play or system. It was more like let's see what we've got.
Which is why it's impossible to guess what kind of player moves the Liberty are going to make. Is management merely reshaping the same base or are they totally rebuilding? But either way, what are they trying to become? |
No question. The early season offense was a drive and kick offense. One that should have worked with players like Hartley and Sugar, but didn’t. Then they went back to emphasizing Tina inside. She’s had back spasms two years in a row now and was questionable for some games she wound up playing in.
But the offense has been not great since 2015 even when they were winning. The difference last year was much inferior interior defense, help defense and rebounding. As a result, NY sagged its defenses even more than in the past and got torched from outside.
I know McCowan has question marks. And she wouldn’t necessarily be my #1 choice at this moment. However, if you watched all 34 Libs games last year, living or dying with every possession, it’s unequivocal that adding a McCowan at the expense of Kia Vaughn would be a massive upgrade.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22470 Location: NJ
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Posted: 01/19/19 2:04 pm ::: |
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You can also make the case of adding Durr or Ogunbowale at the expense of Prince would be a massive upgrade.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 01/19/19 2:58 pm ::: |
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It would be. But it’s been a long time since a championship team wasn’t top 3 in defense. I think whoever you add has to either help you directly at the last line of attack or indirectly by improving you in height/length/rebounding.
I’m not opposed to Durr if moves are made to strengthen the team outside of her position though. I’m wary of a team with so many two guards and thus far the regime with Katie as the coach hasn’t proven trustworthy in terms of making transactions on a larger scale. That’s what concerns me. That they’d add Durr at the expense of utilizing Nurse and not maximizing trade value and free agency to the fullest.
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Last edited by NYL_WNBA_FAN on 01/19/19 3:10 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 01/19/19 3:03 pm ::: |
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Just throwing this out there for discussion. What if the asking price for Maya Moore was Kia Nurse and two firsts? Would you guys do it?
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LibFan25
Joined: 01 Sep 2012 Posts: 893 Location: NY
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Posted: 01/19/19 3:35 pm ::: |
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NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Just throwing this out there for discussion. What if the asking price for Maya Moore was Kia Nurse and two firsts? Would you guys do it? |
i would do it, i love Nurse but we are talking about a future hall-of-famer here lol Maya would be major upgrade on what we have now with Prince, Hartley, Allen, and Rodgers
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63712
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Posted: 01/19/19 3:44 pm ::: |
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NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Just throwing this out there for discussion. What if the asking price for Maya Moore was Kia Nurse and two firsts? Would you guys do it? |
Harrison and two firsts would be a better deal.
Hopefully Maya has multiple teams that would be acceptable. Then it becomes a bidding war instead of “we can’t afford that much”.
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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LibFan25
Joined: 01 Sep 2012 Posts: 893 Location: NY
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Posted: 01/19/19 3:50 pm ::: |
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NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
It would be. But it’s been a long time since a championship team wasn’t top 3 in defense. I think whoever you add has to either help you directly at the last line of attack or indirectly by improving you in height/length/rebounding.
I’m not opposed to Durr if moves are made to strengthen the team outside of her position though. I’m wary of a team with so many two guards and thus far the regime with Katie as the coach hasn’t proven trustworthy in terms of making transactions on a larger scale. That’s what concerns me. That they’d add Durr at the expense of utilizing Nurse and not maximizing trade value and free agency to the fullest. |
i am somewhat concern about it too, that's why im leaning towards K Brown as my pick, much more rounded game then the other prospects. Collier would help us too on both ends of the floor. i wish we had really good smart GM that can make trades and come up with good ideas to improve the team.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 10911
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Posted: 01/19/19 3:53 pm ::: |
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Shades wrote: |
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Just throwing this out there for discussion. What if the asking price for Maya Moore was Kia Nurse and two firsts? Would you guys do it? |
Harrison and two firsts would be a better deal.
Hopefully Maya has multiple teams that would be acceptable. Then it becomes a bidding war instead of “we can’t afford that much”. |
Seems that Moore has no interest in leaving the Lynx and just wants some time off. Why would the Lynx trade her?
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 01/19/19 4:04 pm ::: |
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NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Just throwing this out there for discussion. What if the asking price for Maya Moore was Kia Nurse and two firsts? Would you guys do it? |
I doubt it's about asking price -- it's about where Maya wants to go. There are four major reasons why players usually want to move, and three of them seemingly do not apply to Moore (money, championships, playing time). The only one left is going home, and I think that would be the most likely motivation. I can't think of any reason why she'd want to come to New York.
As far as the #2 pick goes, I'm with you in terms of trying to improve on as many fronts as possible. That means assessing what we can get in free agency, plus what's available lower in the draft. However, it still comes back to player evaluation. There continues to be very little agreement over these players, and it seems to me that people are beginning to harden their stance. Unless someone has a breakout NCAA tournament and clearly separates herself from the pack, I have a feeling fans aren't going to change their opinions. It's sort of like what politics have turned into. Under the circumstances, I'm just going to settle back and watch. It's Katie Smith's problem, and no matter what we want she's going to do whatever she's going to do.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24327 Location: London
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Posted: 01/19/19 4:30 pm ::: |
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Randy wrote: |
Shades wrote: |
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Just throwing this out there for discussion. What if the asking price for Maya Moore was Kia Nurse and two firsts? Would you guys do it? |
Harrison and two firsts would be a better deal.
Hopefully Maya has multiple teams that would be acceptable. Then it becomes a bidding war instead of “we can’t afford that much”. |
Seems that Moore has no interest in leaving the Lynx and just wants some time off. Why would the Lynx trade her? |
What if they take the 'retirement' possibility more seriously than other teams? Might think it's best to cash in now if other team(s) are willing to deal for her without any guarantees, rather than let her sit out indefinitely and potentially never get anything in return. |
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63712
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Posted: 01/19/19 5:35 pm ::: |
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How long does a player have to “retire” before her rights become invalid? That could be a court-worthy issue.
This should definitely be Lynx convo, not Liberty.
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 01/19/19 8:20 pm ::: |
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root_thing wrote: |
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Just throwing this out there for discussion. What if the asking price for Maya Moore was Kia Nurse and two firsts? Would you guys do it? |
I doubt it's about asking price -- it's about where Maya wants to go. There are four major reasons why players usually want to move, and three of them seemingly do not apply to Moore (money, championships, playing time). The only one left is going home, and I think that would be the most likely motivation. I can't think of any reason why she'd want to come to New York.
As far as the #2 pick goes, I'm with you in terms of trying to improve on as many fronts as possible. That means assessing what we can get in free agency, plus what's available lower in the draft. However, it still comes back to player evaluation. There continues to be very little agreement over these players, and it seems to me that people are beginning to harden their stance. Unless someone has a breakout NCAA tournament and clearly separates herself from the pack, I have a feeling fans aren't going to change their opinions. It's sort of like what politics have turned into. Under the circumstances, I'm just going to settle back and watch. It's Katie Smith's problem, and no matter what we want she's going to do whatever she's going to do. |
Wish we could have more confidence in whatever it is that Katie Smith decides to do. Part of that is wondering what style of play they wish to employ and if they’ll adjust if certain types of personnel are available outside that framework. In other words, a system with McCowan would look different from a drive, draw and kick system that they attempted to employ early last year.
Re: Moore I thought one reason might be a reunion with Charles.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007 Posts: 7365 Location: Underground
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Posted: 01/19/19 9:56 pm ::: |
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NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
Wish we could have more confidence in whatever it is that Katie Smith decides to do. Part of that is wondering what style of play they wish to employ and if they’ll adjust if certain types of personnel are available outside that framework. In other words, a system with McCowan would look different from a drive, draw and kick system that they attempted to employ early last year. |
Exactly my point. And if she takes a Durr or Ogunbowale at #2, then the available posts at #14 are much different, smaller players than McCowan or Brown. That alone forces you into another stylistic direction. I know some people are suggesting Han Xu as an alternative, but she's very thin and will get pushed around despite her height. Han is also limited on offense -- the flukey 20 pt game against Team USA notwithstanding. I don't see her getting significant minutes at this juncture. The more skilled options are Gustafson and Smith. Both are strong offensively, and they'll probably do OK with team defense because both are smart players. Where they'll hurt you is matching up against bigger posts. Neither is any taller than Vaughn, Zahui B, or Stokes, and they're not as strong. I'm not high on Shepard. Turner will be good on a team like Phoenix that needs a defender-rebounder, but for NY it would be redundant -- like adding a thinner Stokes with only slightly better offense. Anigwe might be the compromise solution. However, you have to move up much higher to get her. Actually, one of Smith or Gustafson will probably end up in the 1st Round too, although I doubt both will. And then there's Magbegor, who is a total wildcard.
Meanwhile, if you take Brown or McCowan at #2, there are some interesting scorers still around at #14 and maybe even at #26. I think either Howard or Cunningham will go in the 1st Round, but not both. So one could be there for NY. You've also got Dillard, who is second in the nation in scoring and has looked good in the NCAA Tournament. Her percentages aren't great, but she also has the weakest supporting cast compared to the other big scorers. Then there's Mabrey, who looks like she is shooting well again from the field. She's likely only bench help, but Marina shot the ball well off the bench her first two years at ND, so there is reason to believe she'd be better than Prince or Rodgers who both struggle when not starting.
If you believe that GM/coaches survey, Davenport and Blockton will be available in the 3rd Round. Blockton is injured, but I like her because Allazia has generally shot the ball well throughout her career. Davenport had a well-timed season-high 26 pts with Katie Smith sitting in the stands a couple of weeks ago. I don't think Texas had any draft prospects and WV's other star, Tynice Martin, is a redshirt junior who is not a sure thing to leave. So, my guess is that Smith was there to see Davenport. Naomi put on a good show. Most importantly, she had some coast-to-coast baskets which showed off her ballhandling skills. That's important because Davenport has been forced to play PF this season. She needs to demonstrate wing skills to avoid being viewed as a tweener like her former teammate Teana Muldrow. For good measure, Davenport also hit a couple of 3's in that game. I also like the two fast PGs Kea and Hiedeman. Kea's been battling a foot injury, but when healthy she can create off the dribble as well as provide outside shooting. Hiedeman has really stepped up as Marquette's top scorer with Blockton injured. She and Kea are very similar -- right down to the wiry 5-8 frame and gold-tipped game hair.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 01/20/19 11:09 am ::: |
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Yep. I feel if they're unable to have impact in free agency that McCowan or Brown becomes more of an option. I'd hate to pass on McCowan simply because Katie Smith wants to play a certain type of offense. Brown concerns me because she's so inconsistent. Especially as a rebounder. We already had an indifferent, passive player in Vaughn. Granted Brown is a much more talented player, but I'm not sold that she solves the rebounding issue the Libs have. If you're drafting 6'7" with the second overall pick, you need a guarantee you're going to get rebounding. She had a career type of game against UConn, which played much of that game without a true C. 22 and 17. For McCowan that's a routine game.
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Last edited by NYL_WNBA_FAN on 01/21/19 7:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007 Posts: 14097
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Posted: 01/21/19 10:42 am ::: |
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Can it just be February 1st already? The sooner we know what is...or isn’t..happening in FA for NY the sooner we know what to expect from the draft. I think any of a multitude of scenarios are possible. Hopefully an ownership transition doesn’t affect free agency. I can’t see why it would, but stranger things have happened.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66773 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 01/21/19 4:19 pm ::: |
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Nets minority owner agrees to buy WNBA’s Liberty
https://www.apnews.com/129461c5796a4cc18cf05232cbc84906
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The sale must be approved by the NBA Board of Governors. The people familiar with the sale said Monday the WNBA Board of Governors gave its approval in the last few days. |
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 Posts: 63712
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Posted: 01/21/19 4:37 pm ::: |
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Operating costs [at WCC] were nearly 20 times less than playing at Madison Square Garden.
The WNBA already has released its 2019 schedule, and the Liberty are set to play in Westchester again, with the two school and camp-day games listed without a venue. With dates locked in, it could be difficult to move games to Brooklyn’s Barclays Center if that’s what the new ownership group wanted. |
_________________ Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009 Posts: 6775
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Posted: 01/21/19 4:54 pm ::: |
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Glad to see it is for real!
I am still going to wait for the official announcement before getting too excited, and before giving up on the games moving to Barclay this year. That second blurb has dampened my hope but it even kept the window open slightly on moving.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 01/21/19 4:57 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
Nets minority owner agrees to buy WNBA’s Liberty
https://www.apnews.com/129461c5796a4cc18cf05232cbc84906
Quote: |
The sale must be approved by the NBA Board of Governors. The people familiar with the sale said Monday the WNBA Board of Governors gave its approval in the last few days. |
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Wonderful news. I will fully celebrate when it's official. The thought of being rid of Hideous Lord Jimmy and, I assume, sexual harasser Isiah Thomas is very sweet.
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StevenHW
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 10979 Location: Sacramento, California
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Posted: 01/21/19 5:14 pm ::: |
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Bob Lamm wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
Nets minority owner agrees to buy WNBA’s Liberty
https://www.apnews.com/129461c5796a4cc18cf05232cbc84906
Quote: |
The sale must be approved by the NBA Board of Governors. The people familiar with the sale said Monday the WNBA Board of Governors gave its approval in the last few days. |
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Wonderful news. I will fully celebrate when it's official. The thought of being rid of Hideous Lord Jimmy and, I assume, sexual harasser Isiah Thomas is very sweet. |
That depends on who Tsai will hire to be the GM and other front-office staff.
_________________ "The more I see of the moneyed classes, the more I understand the guillotine." -- George Bernard Shaw
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22470 Location: NJ
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Posted: 01/21/19 5:25 pm ::: |
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Wonderful news!!
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