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Rock Hard



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 9:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Rock Hard wrote:
Your backup point guard does not have to be amazing. She just needs to be competent at bringing the ball up the court and to not turn the ball over to the other team.


It’s nice having amazing PG on the bench just in case your main PG goes down and you still want a legitimate chance at a championship. Isn’t it usually pretty nice having Faulkner backing up Vandersloot.... and there doesn’t appear to be any ego issues? Nice thing to have. Although Faulkner seems to have fallen to the serious injury bug lately.

Nice, yes it is. The backup point guard does not have to be a superstar, just competent to have a successful team. Your backup point guard will only play ten to twelve minutes per game anyway. Bring the ball up the court and don't turn it over.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 10:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think it's a mistake to worry too much about players 8-12 on the roster ... you're going to win or lose with your top seven.

(Side note: The Liberty are one of the most important franchises in the league if they play anywhere near NYC. If they are permanently in WCC, they become less relevant, but still can have a major impact on the overall perception of the league but only if they're really good. Thus, we should all care, and even though I reflexively dislike all teams from New York, I have to concede the Liberty need to figure it out.)

PG: Boyd -- nice player, probably not a starter for a championship team.
SG: Nurse -- if she develops. Not a great first year, but there's hope.
SF: ?
Posts: Stokes -- like Boyd, a nice player but limited; Charles -- a legit star, but the window is closing, has to play the five when Stokes is in; Zahui B -- there's hope, but despite looking good to casual fans, coaches seem to not play her as much as her offensive stats would suggest.

The others either aren't good enough to make a difference or won't be around when the team is/might be good. The core (above) is adequate, but clearly the team needs at least two more elite players. Hopefully one of the youngsters (Nurse?) develops into one of them, and the team drafts another. Trading the spare parts will only get spare parts in return, and trading the youngsters with potential will only get aging veterans.

In the short run, Katie Smith is not the problem unless she's impeding the improvement of Nurse, Stokes, Zahui B. But if more talent arrives, it would appear a better coach must be found as well.

Hey, I'm 3,000 miles away, so how can I be wrong?



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 10:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You can sometimes do two things at once. Given that Boyd is not a proven starter, and Hartley is more of a combo guard who gets exposed when she spends too much time at point, bringing in a new backup PG is also a de facto audition for starter. Obviously, some people have more potential than others. Who has how much potential is purely subjective. For instance, many Liberty fans like Lindsay Allen because they view her as an intelligent ballhandler with good vision. Other people point to her low scoring output, and they view her conservative ballhandling as timid. The former group believes Allen can develop into a quality starter while the latter thinks she is strictly backup material. The two factions will likely talk past each other.

I don't think PG is New York's most pressing need -- starter or backup. However, if an opportunity presents itself to acquire a talented player on the cheap or to pick up a steal in the draft, then why not take it?



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 3:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The fact that Lindsay Allen made one of 16 threes for the season is, I think, cause for some muting of enthusiasm.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 3:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lindsay Allen is a slightly larger Tully Bevilaqua



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WNBA 09



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 4:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Lindsay Allen is a slightly larger Tully Bevilaqua


Tully could actually hit the open 3 though .



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Luuuc



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 4:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I just received a Disrespected Ledge alert and had to log in to see what it was about.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 08/24/18 12:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm glad the lottery is in a few days. At least we will have a better idea of where we stand in a short time instead of having to wait.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 08/24/18 2:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I'm glad the lottery is in a few days. At least we will have a better idea of where we stand in a short time instead of having to wait.


Praying for #2?



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UK1996



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 9:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I say give Katie Smith another year before booting her. The Liberty’s issue this season was more that they were pretty much stagnant while the rest of the league improved. One of Rodgers/Prince needs to go. I’d move Zealous to the bench. Dumb Zealous and Allen Nurse should be the starting SG. SF and C should be the main priorities this offseason. If Stokes can get healthy and put in the work she could probably start at Center, if not she needs to be a back up.
The Liberty need to go for KLS.

Boyd/Hartley
Nurse/Rodgers or Prince/Draft pick or FA
KLS/Zealous
Charles/Zauhi B/Draft pick or FA
Stokes/ Draft pick or FA



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Iluvacc



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 9:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
I just received a Disrespected Ledge alert and had to log in to see what it was about.



Laughing Laughing Laughing


root_thing



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 1:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I've gone back to rewatch a lot of the NCAA tournament games as well as viewing some additional highlight clips of players. I would say my opinion has shifted somewhat, but not drastically. McCowan is not the reliable shot-blocker that I thought she was, and as I pointed out previously, neither is Brown. So, I'm less confident about the defensive impact of the two centers. Still, they're better than anything we currently have, and as Carolyn Swords has proven, there's some benefit to simply being big. In sports, big is practically a skill. It's like in Deadpool 2 when we learn that luck is a superpower... But I digress. In the MSU-UCLA -game, McCowan looked terrible -- missing a bunch of bunnies and constantly falling to the floor because she's bad at positioning and unable to maintain her balance when she jumps. And yet, after the game you look at the box score and there's Teaira with 23 points and 21 rebounds. If that's what you get when McCowan looks bad, imagine if she ever looks good. Also, McCowan played all 45 minutes of that OT game. "Big galoots" don't have that kind of stamina and they don't have the discipline to stay out of foul trouble for 45 minutes.

Laksa moved up a little bit for me because she has more of an off-the-dribble game than I remembered. I was not aware of Paris Kea's turnover problem until Myrtle mentioned it. However, I'm giving her a pass because Paris is both the lead ballhandler and the primary scorer. Turnovers tend to be higher when you wear both hats. Regarding Durr, I came away with the impression that she is NOT a ballhog.

Things keep evolving, and I'm sure they'll change some more during the WCBB season, but right now I don't feel that strongly about who we take with our first pick if it's between McCowan, Brown, KLS and Durr. I still think Collier wouldn't help NY as much based on need (size in the paint, outside scoring), and while Ogunbowale's big shot ability is intriguing, her lack of size and ball dominance makes me nervous. Obviously, it would be nice to draft as high as possible, giving us greater control over who we select. However, at this point, I'm really not that worked up over the ping-pong balls. The #14 pick actually concerns me more. I'm pretty sure there will be a useful rotation player available, someone who could help us off the bench the way Boyd and Stokes did in 2015. In order to get the most out of that pick, management must have an awareness of roster balance. Katie Smith needs to think through how she intends to use her players. Then they should take someone who will likely get regular minutes.

So, what we're talking about is a possible four-step upgrade for next season:
1) Get a new starter at #4
2) Improve the bench with #14
3) Let Nurse start somewhere and hope that she becomes more consistent
4) Sign a free agent to upgrade a position that isn't already covered by Steps 1,2,3

I think that's a realistic plan. Obviously, there are no guarantees at any step, but all you can do is make a plan and try to execute it. I'm sick of these people who keep saying you won't get a star or you won't get an impact player or you won't challenge for a championship. What, is it all or nothing? If you're not a favorite to win the championship, then you should just roll over and give up? Saying stuff like that is just lazy, and it's not like multiple incremental changes can't add up to significant improvement.



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SportsGuru



Joined: 20 May 2005
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PostPosted: 08/25/18 2:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Does Tina Charles want to leave New York for DC ?


root_thing



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 3:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SportsGuru wrote:
Does Tina Charles want to leave New York for DC ?


As far as I know, Tina hasn't said anything about being unhappy or leaving. Supposedly, she signed a one year contract, but that could be because the union is expected to opt out of the CBA.



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 3:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
SportsGuru wrote:
Does Tina Charles want to leave New York for DC ?


As far as I know, Tina hasn't said anything about being unhappy or leaving. Supposedly, she signed a one year contract, but that could be because the union is expected to opt out of the CBA.

The CBA still won't actually become null until after next season, so she could've signed for two years and become a free agent again under whatever new rules they decide on.



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J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 5:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My guess has always been the Tina signed a 1 year deal because of the uncertainty. If NY folded she would become an ufa instead go in the dispersal draft. If NY relocated even if the new team cored her she would still be unsigned which would give her more leverage to demand a trade or just sit out. And it us a low risk move if things stay uncertain she will be cored and maxed again anyway.


root_thing



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 6:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Where did the story about Tina signing a one-year contract come from? Does anyone have a link?



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 6:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Where did the story about Tina signing a one-year contract come from? Does anyone have a link?

There was never any announcement that she signed a contract, single-year, multi-year or otherwise. I presume it's part assumption, part belief in the Megdal Spreadsheet of Doom.



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Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 8:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I'm sick of these people who keep saying you won't get a star or you won't get an impact player or you won't challenge for a championship. What, is it all or nothing? If you're not a favorite to win the championship, then you should just roll over and give up? Saying stuff like that is just lazy, and it's not like multiple incremental changes can't add up to significant improvement.


I'm one of those who has said that I can't see the Liberty challenging for a championship in 2019. But I never expressed any "all or nothing" feeling. Quite the contrary. I said at least once in writing that my hope was for New York to get to .500 or a little better in 2019 and then be a genuine championship contender in 2020.

Imagine that the Liberty played in 2019 with the same 12 players as this season. No new players coming from the draft or free agency. I'd still be hoping for improvement from Nurse, Boyd, and Zahui B., plus much more from a healthy Kiah Stokes than she gave the team through most of this season. So right there, even without help from new players, the team could be better.

Absolutely no reason to roll over and give up. With improvement from the four players I've mentioned, plus contributions from our #4 and #14 picks and from a free agent or two, the Liberty can certainly be a good deal better.


NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 08/26/18 10:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I've gone back to rewatch a lot of the NCAA tournament games as well as viewing some additional highlight clips of players. I would say my opinion has shifted somewhat, but not drastically. McCowan is not the reliable shot-blocker that I thought she was, and as I pointed out previously, neither is Brown. So, I'm less confident about the defensive impact of the two centers. Still, they're better than anything we currently have, and as Carolyn Swords has proven, there's some benefit to simply being big. In sports, big is practically a skill. It's like in Deadpool 2 when we learn that luck is a superpower... But I digress. In the MSU-UCLA -game, McCowan looked terrible -- missing a bunch of bunnies and constantly falling to the floor because she's bad at positioning and unable to maintain her balance when she jumps. And yet, after the game you look at the box score and there's Teaira with 23 points and 21 rebounds. If that's what you get when McCowan looks bad, imagine if she ever looks good. Also, McCowan played all 45 minutes of that OT game. "Big galoots" don't have that kind of stamina and they don't have the discipline to stay out of foul trouble for 45 minutes.

Laksa moved up a little bit for me because she has more of an off-the-dribble game than I remembered. I was not aware of Paris Kea's turnover problem until Myrtle mentioned it. However, I'm giving her a pass because Paris is both the lead ballhandler and the primary scorer. Turnovers tend to be higher when you wear both hats. Regarding Durr, I came away with the impression that she is NOT a ballhog.

Things keep evolving, and I'm sure they'll change some more during the WCBB season, but right now I don't feel that strongly about who we take with our first pick if it's between McCowan, Brown, KLS and Durr. I still think Collier wouldn't help NY as much based on need (size in the paint, outside scoring), and while Ogunbowale's big shot ability is intriguing, her lack of size and ball dominance makes me nervous. Obviously, it would be nice to draft as high as possible, giving us greater control over who we select. However, at this point, I'm really not that worked up over the ping-pong balls. The #14 pick actually concerns me more. I'm pretty sure there will be a useful rotation player available, someone who could help us off the bench the way Boyd and Stokes did in 2015. In order to get the most out of that pick, management must have an awareness of roster balance. Katie Smith needs to think through how she intends to use her players. Then they should take someone who will likely get regular minutes.

So, what we're talking about is a possible four-step upgrade for next season:
1) Get a new starter at #4
2) Improve the bench with #14
3) Let Nurse start somewhere and hope that she becomes more consistent
4) Sign a free agent to upgrade a position that isn't already covered by Steps 1,2,3

I think that's a realistic plan. Obviously, there are no guarantees at any step, but all you can do is make a plan and try to execute it. I'm sick of these people who keep saying you won't get a star or you won't get an impact player or you won't challenge for a championship. What, is it all or nothing? If you're not a favorite to win the championship, then you should just roll over and give up? Saying stuff like that is just lazy, and it's not like multiple incremental changes can't add up to significant improvement.


Regarding McCowan, it’s funny because I think your posts were what ultimately got me wanting her at #1. I tend to try to look at players in terms of certain physical attributes and then look at what could potentially improve. McCowan’s balance on both ends of the floor is without a doubt a work in progress. But what I really like about her as far as WNBA potential is her agility. The defensive 3-second rule necessitates post defenders who can cover ground quickly. McCowan can do that because she’s highly agile at her size. At the same time, balance and footwork can be taught. So you take someone like her with very high natural talent at her size, and figure the upside is there.

Regarding Stokes, seeing her at 100% was a reminder of how effective she can be, especially defending on a switch. To me the only post player in the league better at that is Griner. To have her being a proficient backup along with Zahui being a solid backup for Tina, that would be some nice depth in the post.

We will know more on Tuesday though. It honestly wouldn’t be the worst year to have a #4 pick I guess...as the difference between 1-4 is much more minimal than it normally is. Ionescu declaring would change that part of the equation however.

Generally speaking, a “big 3” nucleus is normally a good starting point. A KLS, Nurse, Tina grouping along with a hopefully improving Boyd and a hopefully healthy Stokes looks pretty good on paper. Durr, Nurse, Tina is intriguing from a 3-point shooting standpoint as Durr can really shoot it...and create her own shot. A Collier, Nurse, Tina grouping is also intriguing from a standpoint of 2-way dictation of play on the wings....something Minnesota has done well and something that the 2015 Fever were very successful at in almost winning the Championship. Any of the above groupings would be a marked improvement as any of my top 5 (McC, Brown, KLS, Durr, Collier) should be day 1 WNBA starters unless blocked by a better player on the depth chart somehow. I don’t think I’ve ever thought that about 5 players in one draft but in its own way this draft is highly unique. For a change, given the Libs’ misfortune this season, I’ve watched the top players on whatever available games there are to stream. I’ve never done that in a summer before, but I had to reach somewhere for hope.



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Last edited by NYL_WNBA_FAN on 08/26/18 10:31 am; edited 1 time in total
Shades



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PostPosted: 08/26/18 10:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:

To have her being a proficient backup along with Zahui being a solid backup for Tina, that would be some nice depth in the post.


You guys have already decided to pay Hartley and Stokes elevated but not quite max salaries. Will you be willing or able to do the same for Zahui? Hopefully Reeve will bid Zahui up.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 08/26/18 10:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I’m not that worried about it. Z and Piph are likely FAs. The money is there.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 08/26/18 11:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I’m not that worried about it. Z and Piph are likely FAs. The money is there.


Boyd is another player you’ll have to pay. Sugar Rodgers?

Looks like Coleman accepted a rock bottom salary. There wasn’t much to complain about that cost wise. I doubt the players I named who will be in demand will do the same.



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SpaceJunkie



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PostPosted: 08/26/18 11:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I’m not that worried about it. Z and Piph are likely FAs. The money is there.


Boyd is another player you’ll have to pay. Sugar Rodgers?

Looks like Coleman accepted a rock bottom salary. There wasn’t much to complain about that cost wise. I doubt the players I named who will be in demand will do the same.


The Transactions page reports Sugar Rodgers recently signed an extension with the Liberty? Of course the Liberty never report anything, so is this 100% verified? Hurry up Megdal and update the database! Smile
http://www.wnba.com/transactions/

Any team that has common sense doesn't let top FAs go away so easily, especially top RFAs (grr). The Liberty should have enough money to keep Boyd & Zahui B at any price, unless the Liberty feel they must bring and will be able to bring back all of Vaughn, Prince, and Zellous, or don't want to keep Boyd and/or Zahui B.


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PostPosted: 08/26/18 11:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:

Generally speaking, a “big 3” nucleus is normally a good starting point. A KLS, Nurse, Tina grouping along with a hopefully improving Boyd and a hopefully healthy Stokes looks pretty good on paper. Durr, Nurse, Tina is intriguing from a 3-point shooting standpoint as Durr can really shoot it...and create her own shot. A Collier, Nurse, Tina grouping is also intriguing from a standpoint of 2-way dictation of play on the wings.....



Go for either Collier or KLS pick up Chong and keep Hartley- make the Liberty the White Plains Huskies! Smile



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