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New York Liberty 2019
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toad455



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 09/08/19 2:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
toad455 wrote:
Let's be reminded that the Liberty have never had a #1 pick.


The Liberty have a No. 1 pick on their roster RIGHT NOW.


Charles was picked by Connecticut. In 22 years, the Liberty have never had the opportunity to draft a player with the first overall pick.



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Randy



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PostPosted: 09/08/19 2:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Sun have had 2 No. 1 picks in the last 10 years and where are those players now?


PUmatty



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PostPosted: 09/08/19 3:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
toad455 wrote:
Let's be reminded that the Liberty have never had a #1 pick.


The Liberty have a No. 1 pick on their roster RIGHT NOW.


Charles was picked by Connecticut. In 22 years, the Liberty have never had the opportunity to draft a player with the first overall pick.


Sure they have. They traded it away. Then that player demand to be on the Liberty anyway, in exchange for peanuts.

In the life of the franchise, the Fever have never had their draft pick be No. 1 and have never had a No. 1 pick on their team. Chicago is the only other team for whom that is true (though Dallas/Tulsa/Detroit is a few LaToya Thomas games away from the distinction).


Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: 09/08/19 5:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So here's how I finished the season with predictions.

Many on RebKell picked the Liberty to finish 10th in the league. I didn't make any prediction about the final standings. As we now know, New York finished 11th. A loss today, given the tiebreaker with Atlanta, would have left the Liberty last.

Early in the season I didn't like what I was seeing. And I thought some Liberty fans here were way too optimistic about what was ahead. On June 25th, with the team 3-7, I said so. I predicted an eventual finish of 11-23, 12-22, or 13-21. Then the Liberty had a lovely spurt. Based on what I saw on the court and the comments being made by people here, I decided the team was and would be much better than I'd thought. I posted that I'd been wrong.

And now it's clear that indeed I was wrong. Only I didn't UNDERestimate the team, but instead OVERestimated the team. 10-24, a year after 7-27.
Two season total: 17-51. Winning percentage of .250. Awful.

I'm happy for the Liberty players and for Katie Smith that New York finished this dreary season with a victory. I wish Katie well... elsewhere.

Great to see Tanisha Wright hit that late three-pointer, which I'm guessing will be the final shot of her basketball career. Some lovely hugs for her at the end from players for both teams. I greatly admire Wright and hope she'll be an assistant coach for the Liberty next season. And eventually our head coach.


root_thing



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: 09/08/19 5:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:

Sure they have. They traded it away. Then that player demand to be on the Liberty anyway, in exchange for peanuts.


Directly or indirectly, CT still has from that trade five years later Alyssa Thomas, Courtney Williams, Rachel Banham. and a portion of Brionna Jones (3-team, 6-player trade). That's a two-time All-Star, another solid starter, their first guard off the bench, and a back-up post. Those are a lot of peanuts.



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Stormeo



Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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PostPosted: 09/09/19 1:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
PUmatty wrote:

Sure they have. They traded it away. Then that player demand to be on the Liberty anyway, in exchange for peanuts.


Directly or indirectly, CT still has from that trade five years later Alyssa Thomas, Courtney Williams, Rachel Banham. and a portion of Brionna Jones (3-team, 6-player trade). That's a two-time All-Star, another solid starter, their first guard off the bench, and a back-up post. Those are a lot of peanuts.


If you wanna talk about superstar-for-peanuts trades, look no further than the asinine Sylvia Fowles trade, in which the Sky got Erika de Souza back and still had to give up a 2nd-rounder. Atlanta got more outta that deal Laughing
And particularly if Dolson leaves Chicago next year without a ring, the Delle Donne trade would apply, too; since that #2 Pick (Coates) is no longer on the roster, it would just leave Copper as the lone return. Skyikes.


PUmatty



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PostPosted: 09/09/19 1:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stormeo wrote:
root_thing wrote:
PUmatty wrote:

Sure they have. They traded it away. Then that player demand to be on the Liberty anyway, in exchange for peanuts.


Directly or indirectly, CT still has from that trade five years later Alyssa Thomas, Courtney Williams, Rachel Banham. and a portion of Brionna Jones (3-team, 6-player trade). That's a two-time All-Star, another solid starter, their first guard off the bench, and a back-up post. Those are a lot of peanuts.


If you wanna talk about superstar-for-peanuts trades, look no further than the asinine Sylvia Fowles trade, in which the Sky got Erika de Souza back and still had to give up a 2nd-rounder. Atlanta got more outta that deal Laughing
And particularly if Dolson leaves Chicago next year without a ring, the Delle Donne trade would apply, too; since that #2 Pick (Coates) is no longer on the roster, it would just leave Copper as the lone return. Skyikes.


Agreed. These players that make the kind of demands like Fowles, Charles, DelleDonne, set their teams up to get basically nothing for them. CT actually did a bit better than the other two. Thrown in Cambage too.

I think it is something league has to figure out. They can't have teams getting this screwed.


Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 09/09/19 1:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don’t think teams necessarily get “screwed” if it’s like the Fowles situation and she’s already been with the team seven years. Seven years isn’t enough? Is she supposed to be forever an indentured servant to the Sky? I think WNBA fans have been forever taught to think like this whether it’s right or wrong. Hey, it must be right. After all, it’s the way things have always been done.

If you’re an overseas fan, you’re probably wondering why WNBA players are held prisoner to one team for so long. You’re probably wondering why the players can’t go where they want after one or two years. The answer is a young league needs stable player movement to keep the league itself stable. But seven years isn’t enough for one player? C’mon now.



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Stormeo



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PostPosted: 09/09/19 3:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don’t hold it against players to demand out of an org. When they demand going to a specific team, for me that’s where it becomes a gray area and should be taken case by case, in terms of what their reasons are for wanting out + wanting to go to a specific team.
I do however think these GMs need to get as much as they can in return. Why did the Sky need to give up an additional 2nd round pick while still getting little back in return? That made zero sense, which is why out of all trades I call that one asinine. They didn’t get much, but certainly shouldn't have given up any asset other than Fowles. Boneheaded move.

For Fowles iirc, Minny, Seattle, LA, and maybe one other were originally mentioned as a landing spot: places with either up & coming programs, programs with titles behind them, or both. Then I think the focus squarely became Minny somewhere along the line. Seemingly fewer constraints, but worst return.
Delle Donne wanted either New York or Washington, given they’re roughly equal proximity to Delaware. More constraints, but decent return.
Charles only ever wanted to go home to New York. Most constraints, but pretty good return.

Idk, that’s how I feel about it all, years later now that we’ve had a chance to see the consequences of those trades.


Bob Lamm



Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: 09/09/19 3:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ever since the courageous stand of baseball player Curt Flood in 1969, I've supported meaningful free agency rights for all professional athletes. If a league restricts players as the WNBA does, of course stars will sit out or force trades. I would.


PUmatty



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 09/09/19 3:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
I don’t think teams necessarily get “screwed” if it’s like the Fowles situation and she’s already been with the team seven years. Seven years isn’t enough? Is she supposed to be forever an indentured servant to the Sky? I think WNBA fans have been forever taught to think like this whether it’s right or wrong. Hey, it must be right. After all, it’s the way things have always been done.


Take it up with her union. The players collectively bargain their contract.

My suggestion, at this point, is that the league needs to do something to make the ensuing trades less lopsided. Not sure you do you it in a league where superstars and bench players all make the max salary, but there has to be some way.


Randy



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 09/09/19 3:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
Shades wrote:
I don’t think teams necessarily get “screwed” if it’s like the Fowles situation and she’s already been with the team seven years. Seven years isn’t enough? Is she supposed to be forever an indentured servant to the Sky? I think WNBA fans have been forever taught to think like this whether it’s right or wrong. Hey, it must be right. After all, it’s the way things have always been done.


Take it up with her union. The players collectively bargain their contract.

My suggestion, at this point, is that the league needs to do something to make the ensuing trades less lopsided. Not sure you do you it in a league where superstars and bench players all make the max salary, but there has to be some way.


Allow (but don't require) teams pay their "franchise" player a lot more money. Then players will have to choose where to play based on dollars. It would also help with the problem of players not showing up. Teams will also be forced to decide whether they want to pay more to keep their star or go on the cheap. Fans can then decide whether they are rooting for a particular star player or just the dozen or so people who happen to show up each year wearing the local team's uniforms. My question would be if the players on the local team don't want to play there, or don't bother to show up for games why should a fans support that team? If the owners don't want to pay to keep their best player - why should a fan put money in the owners pocket?


ClayK



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PostPosted: 09/10/19 9:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think players should be able to choose which team they want to play for after four years (though one year either way would work).

Seven years out of a 10-year career (roughly) is just too much.



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Richyyy



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 09/10/19 10:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
I think players should be able to choose which team they want to play for after four years (though one year either way would work).

Seven years out of a 10-year career (roughly) is just too much.

It's potentially much more than that at the moment. You can be a restricted free agent after four years, theoretically an unrestricted free agent after six, but then potentially be cored for four more. So for the true stars it's probably ten years under the current system before you'd become a genuine unrestricted free agent. US women are usually two or three years older than the men when they start their pro careers as well, due to most of the top male players leaving after one year in college.

Given all that you can understand why some players use their one piece of leverage - send me where I want or I just won't play - in order to force a move.



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toad455



Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 09/10/19 10:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
ClayK wrote:
I think players should be able to choose which team they want to play for after four years (though one year either way would work).

Seven years out of a 10-year career (roughly) is just too much.

It's potentially much more than that at the moment. You can be a restricted free agent after four years, theoretically an unrestricted free agent after six, but then potentially be cored for four more. So for the true stars it's probably ten years under the current system before you'd become a genuine unrestricted free agent. US women are usually two or three years older than the men when they start their pro careers as well, due to most of the top male players leaving after one year in college.

Given all that you can understand why some players use their one piece of leverage - send me where I want or I just won't play - in order to force a move.


I see the coring system changing with the new CBA.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 09/10/19 11:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
I think players should be able to choose which team they want to play for after four years (though one year either way would work).

Seven years out of a 10-year career (roughly) is just too much.


Again, take it up with the union. This contract was collectively bargained. If players want to be true free agents sooner, they need to collectively bargain it.


Randy



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PostPosted: 09/10/19 11:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
ClayK wrote:
I think players should be able to choose which team they want to play for after four years (though one year either way would work).

Seven years out of a 10-year career (roughly) is just too much.


Again, take it up with the union. This contract was collectively bargained. If players want to be true free agents sooner, they need to collectively bargain it.


It just doesn't work on star players. Look no further than the WNBAPA Vice President (Chiney O.) for someone who decided she didn't need to play by the rules bargained for in the CBA.


pilight



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PostPosted: 09/10/19 11:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
ClayK wrote:
I think players should be able to choose which team they want to play for after four years (though one year either way would work).

Seven years out of a 10-year career (roughly) is just too much.


Again, take it up with the union. This contract was collectively bargained. If players want to be true free agents sooner, they need to collectively bargain it.


Pretty sure that's what they're doing



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 09/10/19 11:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

As Randy suggests, if your team is just a revolving door of players every year, as a fan it's hard to get too enthused about 'your' team. It's partially why I've stopped watching much NBA. I agree the star or stars should be paid more than the 6th player on the team, but how much more?



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Shades



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PostPosted: 10/26/19 11:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I'd take a run at McGee-Stafford or draft Felicia Aiyeotan in a later round.


Looks like Aiyeotan’s basketball career is over.
https://virginiasports.com/news/2019/10/26/womens-basketball-open-letter-to-wahoo-nation-from-felicia-aiyeotan.aspx



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 10/26/19 11:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
root_thing wrote:
I'd take a run at McGee-Stafford or draft Felicia Aiyeotan in a later round.


Looks like Aiyeotan’s basketball career is over.
https://virginiasports.com/news/2019/10/26/womens-basketball-open-letter-to-wahoo-nation-from-felicia-aiyeotan.aspx


That's really sad -- especially since she and her family seemed to pin their hopes on her having a future in basketball. Still, Aiyeotan is at a really good academic school. I hope Virginia continues to support her, and Aiyeotan will be able to finish her education.



_________________
Even now by the gate with your long hair blowing
And the colors of the day that lie along your arms
You must barter your life to make sure you are living
And the crowd that has come
You give them the colors
And the bells and wind and the dream
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