RebKell's Junkie Boards

[jmvcity]

How do you think this current roster would’ve fared under Laimbeer?

[toad455]

[Bob Lamm]

Even with the exact same roster, the Liberty wouldn't be 12th in defense in a 12-team league. Bill Laimbeer wouldn't have allowed that.

[NYSports56]

Laimbeer was so much better at getting the most from his players. His teams had a lot of the same players as Smith's, but his teams never had you doubting their heart or their focus the way we've done during Katie's regime.

[Bob Lamm]

[Happycappie25]

This was a near 500 8th place roster to me...maybe with the durr injury you knock that down to 15 wins yes aggrigate and Atlanta a collapse opening a huge door lottery wise was a factor but there was a lack of finesse and yes DEFENSE blaming it on turnovers when our D was non existent

Not 9 wins

Not in the way it happened

Lack of motivation

No D

Selfish early shot clock shots

That's all on katie

Need a coach not a friend there. I do think any coach the libs had short of maybe whiz would have gotten more out of this team

So yeah

New coach please

_________________
"Leave it to the NCAA women's basketball committee to turn a glass slipper into glass ceiling" Graham Hays

[Bob Lamm]

[root_thing]

Could two wrongs make a right? Perhaps we bring in Patty Coyle as Katie Smith's assistant. They're sorta opposites: Master of Xs and Os versus Ms Likeable. They could do this Yin-Yang, Bad Cop/Good Cop complementary thing. Patty makes demands and yells at the players, Katie gives them a hug. Herb Williams continues to function as scenery.

_________________
You can always do something else.

[Bob Lamm]

Three games to go. Before the season began, many picked the Liberty to finish 10th. Mathematically, it's still possible to finish 9th. But there's a very good chance of finishing where the team is right now: 11th place. (And a possibility of finishing dead last--though it's highly unlikely that Atlanta will win three of their final four games.)

Last season the Liberty finished with a 13-game losing streak. Currently, the losing streak is four. Would rise to seven if New York loses the last three games. If that happens, the Liberty will finish having lost 15 of their final 16 games.

Ugh.

[NYL_WNBA_FAN]

Thinking back to the other terrible team in Libs history, the '06 team...they won something like 7 of their last 10. In spite of little talent (by the end of the season the whole starting 5 from the prior season was either departed or injured) the team still competed hard and carried that intangible quality into the '07 season. They started 5-0, finished a surprising 16-18 and came within a possession or two of eliminating Detroit in the playoffs.

The 7-7 start included a number of positive intangibles, but those have vanished. I was really hoping to have Stokes back to help with D and rebounding, but once she decided to sit out I largely abandoned any grand hopes. I still thought they were going to finish better than this.

I usually hesitate to criticize coaches but I won't hesitate to consider this Liberty personnel grouping among the greatest underachievers in WNBA history.

_________________
The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.

[Bob Lamm]

[root_thing]

I always harp on roster balance, and I think the poor construction of this team is a big part of the problem. Coaching is obviously a big issue too, but it doesn't help when your choice is to keep some of your best players on the bench or play them out of position. This team has too many players whose best positions are 2 and 4. We also have too many international players who can't be relied upon to show up each year.

I've complained for years that the Liberty had too many SGs. It used to be Prince, Rodgers, Zellous, Wright, and Hartley. Now it's Nurse, Durr, Johannes, Wright, and Hartley. So, Wright and Hartley get shoved over to PG, where Tanisha isn't good at pushing pace and Hartley is erratic with her playmaking. Nurse moves over to SF where she is undersized. Katie then can't decide if she'd rather have Nurse's offense or Allen's defense and rebounding. Now and then, Allen gets hot so that makes the decision easy. Other times, like the 1st Half last night, Nurse is so passive that she needs to be yanked. However, Kia is an extemely streaky player. You risk sending her into a cold spell if you mess with her minutes. On the flipside, you may also miss an opportunity to ride her when hot. Kia got pulled yesterday right after hitting her first basket. She never returned. What could have happened if she remained on the court? Part of the problem is that Kia couldn't slide over to SG because Johannes was hot. At times, Nurse and Allen have been used together when Bec moved to PF. However, that only works against other undersized PFs like Collier and Gabby Williams. Meanwhile, with Durr out, Hartley is back to mostly playing SG. However, you've got Johannes pushing for playing time, and what happens when Durr returns? I suppose the answer is that Johannes won't be here next year. Still, the crowding has to be dealt with eventually.

In terms of the center position, WNBA post players are getting bigger and more athletic. Zahui and Gray are on the short side when it comes to playing center. Neither has the superior athletic ability to compensate for a lack of height. Stokes does to a certain extent, but she will still struggle against the really tall centers. Charles is no bigger than the other three, and she doesn't want to play center anyway. Meanwhile, Han is at least a couple of years away from being starter quality, and we don't know when she'll return. People need to remember that it is not solely her decision. The Chinese Basketball Federation can simply deny her the opportunity to leave.

Going forward, NY is probably OK with Tina at PF, but she is clearly in decline and no longer a reliable #1 option. Nurse is better off at SG. We can hope for improvement from Kia, but right now she has the mentality and skill level of a #3 option, not a #2. Durr has the most potential after Nurse, maybe a higher ceiling, but can we really live with Nurse at SF and Durr at SG from a defensive point of view? Kia would have to get a lot stronger and improve as a rebounder. Durr needs to really improve her defense, and she also has to be more aggressive on offense. Asia passes up too many midrange shots that are in her wheelhouse. If this is the line-up at 2,3,4, then NY really needs a big center who can compensate on defense, someone who provides rim-protection and reliable rebounding. Stokes can help at times, but she's not an every game solution. Zahui's rebounding and block numbers aren't bad, but a big chunk of those totals were accumulated in a few games. She's not reliable over the long haul.

So, in terms or dump or keep, I'm generally in agreement with Happycappie25:

Keep
Charles
Nurse

Keep, but with options open
Durr
Stokes
Zahui
Allen

Neutral
Gray

Probably won't be here
Han
Johannes
Raincock-Ekunwe

Move on
Boyd
Hartley
Wright

So, all of our PGs are on the chopping block. Going by history, I'm not counting on Ionescu. NY is not a lucky franchise, and no matter what the odds are or even if there are three East teams involved, the West team always gets the #1 pick. Sorry folks, Sabrina is going to Dallas. I like Dangerfield, but she's going to make the Liberty even smaller on defense. Depending on who else is around, I'd rather use #13 on someone like Tyasha Harris or maybe Sug Sutton, who was a pleasant surprise at the Pan Am tryouts. Obviously, if we can obtain an established starting point guard via trade or free agency, that would be ideal. If not, I would look at Lindsay Allen. In an Olympic year, foreign players are unlikely to come over but I would at least inquire about Nicole Seekamp. Sandy Brondello usually encourages Australians to play in the WNBA.

As far as centers go, I would take Cox if available. If not, hopefully Mompremier improves some aspect of her game so that it's clearly a pro-ready skill. Otherwise, we'll need to get a big situational player. As I've mentioned before, I'd take a run at McGee-Stafford or draft Felicia Aiyeotan in a later round.

In terms of coaches, I'm OK with those previously mentioned: Gary Kloppenburg, Julie Plank, and Stephanie White if she gets canned from Vanderbilt. I'd prefer an experienced coach, but if we must go with an assistant, I suppose my choice would be Eric Thibault. As the son of a coaching lifer, he probably knows his Xs and Os. I was also impressed when they mentioned yesterday that Eric had worked with EDD during the off-season to improve her defense against smaller players. The fact that a high IQ star like Elena trusts him to improve her game is a good sign.

_________________
You can always do something else.

[Happycappie25]

Root beat me to responding before I decided on reposting but so we all have context heres my keep em or dump em from the game thread


Gonna play keep an or dump an here and now to stay positive and celebratory Friday for fan night last game at WCC (or else) and spoon HOF

Johannes has the potential but she has to stay here get stronger and learn the us style better or shell always be that flashy novelty on the high bench...that said that's way above dumeric s year im Atlanta

Han I think can be an everyday center in 5 years again needs to bulk up amd lean to the American game

For both unless something major changes in CBA not gonna happen

Boyd isn't as good as her numbers but also isn't as bad as her worst moments...im no one's apologist but boyd has had no bigger advocate for her development than I have over time...but I've even reached the conclusion she's never gonna be more than a top reserve pg in this league...too inconsistent and needs to harness her fire better too many dumb Ts or spiking the ball and carrying on for a true leader of a club which is part of being a pg


Allen ive beem down on for years but she turned a corner this year id keep even if we only get half a season

Wright did a lot...but Friday...take the bow kiss the logo and move on to coaching...its time to move on...grear long career no shame only great memories but shes given all she can

Hartley I've soured on...get what you can and part ways peacefully just not consistent enough to be a starter

Zahui id keep but that's also depends on what free agency turns into...with CTs plethora of expiring contracts if you get a shot to steal a big with talent you say Zahui and Charles be damned you get one of em CBA explains so much about our situation will really determine what will happen for us what coach we get etc

Charles keep but with a huge asterisk of if there's quality at the 4 you grab it and prepare for the near future...shes near the wall needs a 2nd and 3rd option and putting a young good 4 behind her to limit minutes maximizes her not belittles her

Raincock is what she is hustle and heart with enough skill to be useful...invite to camp should have better

Gray had a great year for her and saved our bacon with stokes sitting out...id invite to camp but likeky stokes returns to reclaim this spot

Durr...was it that serious were other things at play...if Atlanta nakes an offer listen but sell HIGH still has potential and I think the right coach will help keep unless something boffo is offered

Nurse enough start to make all star....then...almost less than zero at times beat out by allen...still see her as a 3 but gotta show a lot in 3rd year...new coach should help keep but don't be shy if anything good crops up the top 2 were forged in depth...i think this will be the way of the new cba
Also will need to weigh team canada in this but we shall see

Dump Katie not even a question same with herb and Farris the 64000 dollar question is do you elevate spoon or let her go as well... this toe in the water approach has not worked at all. Not under bill worse under Katie...but she's tough to just dump...so do you give her the keys or do you go for a veteran w coach a lot depends om this decision


So locks for me

Charles
Nurse*
Zahui
Allen*

*likeky partial season due to NT commitments

Move only for top dollar

Durr

Bring to camp but shop for better in free agency/draft

Gray
Raincock* unless she sits for NT

Retain rights but let sit for 2020 olympic duty

Johannes
Han

Dump

Boyd
Hartley
Wright (retirement)
Katie and all staff

Spoon either EARNS hc or gets reassigned away from the coaching staff no more ms in between!

Returning

Stokes

Expect 2 picks to make roster yes we need inoescu almost or bust

Leaving 4 open spots for free agents...thats high for the W but roster needs impactful change....and I feel the new CBA will be dealing from a different deck than we are used to when it comes to free agency

_________________
"Leave it to the NCAA women's basketball committee to turn a glass slipper into glass ceiling" Graham Hays

[genesis1272]

Ok, so here's my 1 random post of the year- lol

Let's just presume that the lottery Gods/ping-pong balls turn in our favor, and we get the #1 that we should get, or at least the #2, and also presume that they also go in the direction of finish, so Indy gets the other top pick. What do you think it would take to acquire both the #1 and the #2 via trade, and snag both Ionescu and Cox?

I realize it would probably take a lot, minimally the first rounder for 2021 and a host of players, but I've been wondering if it would be possible, given the players we currently have, or if it would even be worth it, as in would it decimate our roster to such an extent that we'd still suck even with the top 2 picks? Or would other free agents/players looking to move teams be lured into NY with the prospects of playing with those 2?

I would also add that I'd like to keep Nurse and, if possible, Johannes (hoping her NT duties would keep ppl shy of wanting her). ANYONE else is fair game for trade. Do we have enough/the right pieces to make that happen and is it worth it?

[PUmatty]

[myrtle]

[Rock Hard]

[J-Spoon]

my crystal ball says something like this

not great but better

(slightly building off of Root but mostly my own thoughts as we like the same "gettable" role players also trying to keep it realistic while throwing in a curve ball or two)

Ionescu/L. Allen/(Cuevas-Moore)
Durr/Hartley
Nurse/R. Allen/(Copper)
Charles/Zahui B/Gray
Dolson/McGee-Stafford

I guess the trade is Stokes and 2nd rounder for Dolson and we get McGee-Stafford for free, if Dolson is an UFA and we can get her for free maybe Stokes and 2nd round pick for Copper instead of bringing in 3rd string point Cuevas-Moore but Cuevas-Moore looked good in pre-season maybe with some improvement she is worth another look at worst younger/cheaper Boyd with a 3 point shot. I like Harltey more than most, I just don't think she is supposed to be a starting PG I see her as a bench combo guard who you ride when hot and pull when struggling.

we are still going to struggle on defense but should be able to score enough to be in most games

(If for some reason my Crystal ball is broken and none of the above happens and NY lands the #3 or 4 pick take a long hard look at Mompremier and test Bill's love for Plum by offering Stokes and 2nd round pick likely #13. LV doesn't have their first round pick so 13 is worth something and Stokes becomes more appealing if Swords runs out of gas or Cambage decides to stay in Australia and work with the NT in 2020).

(It is also possible that Stokes has lower trade value but I could see her being a good fit in either Chicago or LV, the addition of the high 13ish 2nd round pick adds to the trade and players in question Dolson, Copper, Plum are solid but top of the line targets).

[toad455]

I'm all for throwing money at a legit center. I also don't see Stokes back with the Liberty. Maybe there's hope we can at least get Johannes for this first half of the season.

_________________
LET'S GO LIBERTY!!!!!!

Twitter: @TBRBWAY

[Richyyy]

[root_thing]

[myrtle]

[GlennMacGrady]

Cuevas was never primarily a point guard at any level. She played mostly the 2 for Apache Paschall in high school and AAU, though of course she's a good dribbler and could always bring the ball up court as needed.

As a nit, Dolson is from Port Jervis, NY, which is located at the junction of NY, NJ and Pennsylvania, not from Long Island (Hartley is). But the point is valid: NYC would be her home area. Have no idea how the Liberty could acquire her, however.

Saniya Chong is a NY suburbs point guard and I watched her Ossining high school team sell out the Westchester County Center several times. Have no idea where she is, but doubt she could help the Liberty.

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/MagicBusBasketball

[PUmatty]

[root_thing]