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Bob Lamm
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WNBA 09
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mavcarter
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root_thing
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 Posted: 08/20/19 9:22 am ::: |
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| mavcarter wrote: |
You know, it’s kind of funny to see trade ideas that involves a star getting traded for less than their worth and everyone says, “No way is Team A doing that deal”.
And what happens when a star demands out? They get traded, for less than their worth.  |
A player's worth is based on what she can do for you on the court. When that player refuses to play for your team, then her value reduces to zero. Now you're trading her based on theoretical value to another team. However, the other team will try to exact a desperation discount from you, especially if said player demands to be traded to that specific team. You always have the option of making her sit out since there is also value in denying a star's services to your rival, but most GM/coaches don't have the nerve to do that. Consequently, what you get in return is usually below true worth. However, this is very different from voluntarily trading your star for a bunch of scrubs. One is coercion, the other is stupidity.
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mavcarter
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| Posted: 08/20/19 9:38 am ::: |
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So if Diggins does get moved, it ain’t gone be for Kia Nurse.._________________
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| Or maybe said poster should quit being a nuisance when people don’t agree? |
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root_thing
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mavcarter
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zune69
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| Posted: 08/20/19 10:51 am ::: |
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| Durr, a future 1st & 2nd rd pk for McCoughtry.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 08/20/19 11:00 am ::: |
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| zune69 wrote: |
| Durr, a future 1st & 2nd rd pk for McCoughtry. |
I definitely wouldn't do this.
For me, any discussion of possible trades has to begin with this question: do you believe that the Liberty are close to being a championship contender? I don't. So I'd be very reluctant to trade young talent like Durr or a high draft pick for an aging veteran. McCoughtry will be 33 in September. How many healthy, good years can she have left? (Same question we've been facing with Tina Charles, whose play this season has not been up to her previous level.)
Even apart from the draft picks, Asia Durr turned 22 in April and may (or may not) become a star. I'd be very reluctant to trade her for any player 33 years old. Especially since I don't believe there's any WNBA player 33 or older who would make the Liberty a championship contender next season.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 08/20/19 11:06 am ::: |
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| It doesn't matter what players we bring in here as long as the coach doesn't know what he/she is doing. Priority #1 has to be finding a competent coach.
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zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010
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| Posted: 08/20/19 11:26 am ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| zune69 wrote: |
| Durr, a future 1st & 2nd rd pk for McCoughtry. |
I definitely wouldn't do this.
For me, any discussion of possible trades has to begin with this question: do you believe that the Liberty are close to being a championship contender? I don't. So I'd be very reluctant to trade young talent like Durr or a high draft pick for an aging veteran. McCoughtry will be 33 in September. How many healthy, good years can she have left? (Same question we've been facing with Tina Charles, whose play this season has not been up to her previous level.)
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I say trade Tina, Lib fans say no....I say trade For McCoughtry and pair her with Tina, Lib fans say no. The Liberty seem to have no direction. Either blow it up or go for a championship. Of course, NY would have to acquire more players than just Angel.
Maybe NY could swing a trade for Fowles or Maya( Lottery pick)
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root_thing
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| Posted: 08/20/19 12:26 pm ::: |
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| zune69 wrote: |
| I say trade Tina, Lib fans say no.... |
Not true. Liberty fans have talked about trading Tina. Our conclusion is that she probably won't leave New York. That's not the same as refusing to trade her. Given that Tina donates at least half of her salary to charity, if not more, she could easily give up the WNBA and not miss the money. Winning a championship might be motivation to leave, but that's offset by Charles' desire to be close to her family. And now Tina wants to further pursue documentary filmmaking as a possible future career. That part of the movie industry has deep roots in New York, and her main mentors -- producer Jane Rosenthal and Spike Lee -- are both based here.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 08/20/19 12:47 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| It doesn't matter what players we bring in here as long as the coach doesn't know what he/she is doing. Priority #1 has to be finding a competent coach. |
Absolutely.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 08/20/19 12:50 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| zune69 wrote: |
| I say trade Tina, Lib fans say no.... |
Not true. Liberty fans have talked about trading Tina. Our conclusion is that she probably won't leave New York. That's not the same as refusing to trade her. Given that Tina donates at least half of her salary to charity, if not more, she could easily give up the WNBA and not miss the money. Winning a championship might be motivation to leave, but that's offset by Charles' desire to be close to her family. And now Tina wants to further pursue documentary filmmaking as a possible future career. That part of the movie industry has deep roots in New York, and her main mentors -- producer Jane Rosenthal and Spike Lee -- are both based here. |
It is flagrantly untrue to say that Liberty fans have said "no" to trading Tina. Many of us have discussed this. root_thing.has it exactly right.
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zune69
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| Posted: 08/20/19 1:04 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
| zune69 wrote: |
| I say trade Tina, Lib fans say no.... |
Not true. Liberty fans have talked about trading Tina. Our conclusion is that she probably won't leave New York. |
It is flagrantly untrue to say that Liberty fans have said "no" to trading Tina. Many of us have discussed this. root_thing.has it exactly right. |
Okay, I stand corrected.
However, If Charles isn't willing to take a lesser roll next season, the Liberty should not extend her contract when she becomes a FA.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 08/20/19 3:18 pm ::: |
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| Charles has been playing much better since the All-Star break. With Nurse in a horrendous shooting slump, Tina is still the Liberty's best player. There's no need to get rid of her -- they just have to find a more effective way of using Tina. Without a doubt, there are times when Charles' presence hurts more than it helps. But that's where having a competent coach comes in. This team needs an identity. Once that's established, and new systems are put into place, then hopefully they can find a role for Tina that emphasizes her strengths while minimizing her weaknesses.
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NYSports56
Joined: 03 Jul 2018
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| Posted: 08/20/19 10:34 pm ::: |
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A win! So it isn't going to be quite as bad as last year. It was nice to see the team play like we always hoped they would. Looked like a dream when all those open shots were going in early!
Bria Hartley appears to be back to being what she was last year: a good backup guard, with all of the plusses and minuses that we know so well. I was hoping she'd elevate her game a bit this season, but if this (her performance over the last several games) is what she can give us, she's could be a suitable backup to Asia Durr and to a legitimate starting point guard. Whoever that is. Odds are, it won't be Ionescu. But hopefully, it will be. If not, the Liberty need to go out and get someone if they want to compete.
I was hoping for a bit more from Brittany Boyd like I hoped from Hartley, but she isn't even what she was last year. She made a few good plays tonight. She made even more bad plays. She's the only player on the Liberty that I am truly done with.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 08/22/19 11:12 am ::: |
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| zune69 wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| zune69 wrote: |
| Durr, a future 1st & 2nd rd pk for McCoughtry. |
I definitely wouldn't do this.
For me, any discussion of possible trades has to begin with this question: do you believe that the Liberty are close to being a championship contender? I don't. So I'd be very reluctant to trade young talent like Durr or a high draft pick for an aging veteran. McCoughtry will be 33 in September. How many healthy, good years can she have left? (Same question we've been facing with Tina Charles, whose play this season has not been up to her previous level.)
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I say trade Tina, Lib fans say no....I say trade For McCoughtry and pair her with Tina, Lib fans say no. The Liberty seem to have no direction. Either blow it up or go for a championship. Of course, NY would have to acquire more players than just Angel.
Maybe NY could swing a trade for Fowles or Maya( Lottery pick) |
Fowles was offered the opportunity to move by Cheryl Reeve in the offseason in the event she wanted to pursue a championship elsewhere. She declined. I’d love to have Fowles but all evidence points to her not wanting to move.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 08/22/19 11:21 am ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| Fowles was offered the opportunity to move by Cheryl Reeve in the offseason in the event she wanted to pursue a championship elsewhere. She declined. I’d love to have Fowles but all evidence points to her not wanting to move. |
But she said she didn't want to go anywhere else, not that she wouldn't go anywhere else if Minnesota just decided a trade was the right move. I think there's definitely been some frustration with Fowles on Reeve's side this season, so I could actually see it as a plausible possibility. But obviously it depends on the return available (and Fowles would have to be reasonably happy with the destination, given we've seen her willingness to sit out already). |
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 08/22/19 11:28 am ::: |
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Since altering the offense and getting Tina moving and cutting more she’s shooting .446 with 8.6 rpg and nearly 2 blocks per game. I think her “role” has been defined by Katie Smith. Seems to me the plan was to rely on her in the post while the young players acclimated and then alter the offense at the all-star break. The offense is radically different. Much more player and ball movement. I’m not buying that Tina will have a problem accepting a lesser role, particularly given that one way or another they’re pretty much guaranteed to add a WNBA-ready offensive player either through the lottery or draft.
As for Angel, we have no idea how she will be post-ACL. So trading an up-and-coming star for her would be incredibly ill-advised let alone including a draft choice.
The lottery pick is in my view their number one commodity to potentially trade. Durr and Nurse are both rising stars. I have no interest in trading either player, especially when neither has developed into her full value.
If it’s number one overall (probably a 1 in 4 likelihood) then you take Ionescu and move forward. If it’s number two that’s where things get interesting. Lauren Cox has grown on me and she’s a do-everything post player who has potential to stretch the floor. My issue with that is we still need a PG. I feel now even if we add Cox, without a PG we are still a lottery team. Three potential offseason candidates for trade could be Moriah Jefferson, Skylar Diggins or Danielle Robinson.
Diggins means you’re trading at minimum the lottery pick, if not more. She’s 29 years old as well so if that’s your move you have to ask if it makes you championship caliber. I’d argue that it might, but it’s a calculated risk. Jefferson would be cheaper but she’s a lightweight and she had micro fracture surgery.
Then there’s Robinson who would probably not be super expensive. Would she be available? She might.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 08/22/19 12:28 pm ::: |
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In my view, the Liberty have three genuine trading chips: Kia Nurse, Asia Durr, and our #1 pick for 2020. I'm not including Tina Charles because I don't believe she'll play in any other WNBA city, so no one is going to trade for her. I don't believe anyone else on our roster has much trade value. (That includes Stokes and Boyd.) And I don't believe our 2nd round pick for 2020 has much trade value.
I wouldn't trade Nurse or Durr or our #1 pick--and certainly not two of those three--unless we'd get an outstanding player at a desirable age.
I wouldn't trade even one of our three trading chips for Angel McCoughtry because of her age (33 next season) and questions about her health.
I wouldn't trade even one of our three trading chips for Maya Moore--even if we knew she'd play for New York in 2020--because of her age (31 next season) and because she could easily play one more WNBA season and then retire.
I wouldn't trade even one of our three trading chips for Sylvia Fowles because of her age (she'll be almost 34 next season).
I don't see the Liberty as a championship contender in 2020 under any circumstances. But I believe that even without a major trade it'll be possible for the team to take a big step forward in 2020. New home in Brooklyn, new coach, Nurse continues to improve, Durr is much better in her 2nd year, help from our #1 draft pick, signing a good free agent. If that happens, then New York could be a genuine championship contender in 2021.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 08/22/19 1:34 pm ::: |
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CBA changes not withstanding, I view Nurse and Durr as pieces I want to trade under almost no circumstances. The way the rules are currently, you have both players under your control for two seasons for the price of approximately one max salary. The two have the potential to be the league’s next great wing tandem and it’s possible both can reach that level by 2021. Should the Liberty wind up with a top 2 pick, that’s another nucleus player. If it’s Ionescu, that’s in my view a potentially generational one.
An Ionescu, Durr, Nurse core moving forward is one you unequivocally do not mess with. I don’t care if it means 8 wins next year, 14 wins, 17 wins or 24 wins. Reason being that you’d be looking at a legit big 3 for a decade plus barring injury. Those 3 would be sensational complements to one another moving forward. No way I’m giving that up and losing age in the exchange.
Where it gets interesting is if it’s Cox or Sabally or #4. Cox and Sabally will IMO be without a doubt nucleus players for whichever team acquires them. Sabally’s upside is insane. If you draft one of those and move on with a slight upgrade at PG (if you can find one) that’s where I’m a little antsy even though I respect those players. Losing or attaining mediocrity in 2020 isn’t something I’ll willingly accept unless I know that a core is in place which enables likelihood of major success in 2021 and beyond. And to do that, part of the equation has to be finding an upper level creator and ball distributor. In today’s WNBA that’s your most likely pathway to a championship.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 08/22/19 1:55 pm ::: |
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| Speaking of Durr, is there any info regarding if she’s coming back this season?
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LibFan25
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| Posted: 08/22/19 2:21 pm ::: |
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I believe Asia Durr will be a good one, but seeing Young, Collier, and Arike having good rookie seasons and all 3 has a chance for ROY makes me jelly
We have to admit Durr didn't have the rookie season we thought or I thought she would be. She did had some impact for us but kinda went MIA.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 08/22/19 2:52 pm ::: |
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| LibFan25 wrote: |
I believe Asia Durr will be a good one, but seeing Young, Collier, and Arike having good rookie seasons and all 3 has a chance for ROY makes me jelly
We have to admit Durr didn't have the rookie season we thought or I thought she would be. She did had some impact for us but kinda went MIA. |
Judging by Katie Smith’s handling of young players, I’d doubt that Collier or Arike would have gotten the minutes and the opportunities to perform that they received on their respective teams. Durr shot 47% from the field and even without getting to the line much was pretty efficient with her opportunities. So I totally hear what you’re saying but think on most young teams Durr would have been provided a far greater opportunity to show her stuff. And this is coming from someone who wanted Collier.
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