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root_thing
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 Posted: 08/03/19 11:31 am ::: |
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| It may have nothing to do with Zahui leaving for Europe. Previously, teams were probably sleeping on Amanda. Now they've adjusted. That's the nature of sports: adjustments and counter-adjustments. Since the team is playing a system, most of the counter-measures have to come from the coach. It has to be either in the game plan or an in-game modification. I've talked about how the Liberty struggle in rematches. Opponents alter their approach, but the Liberty don't seem to adapt. Zahui's reduced effectiveness is likely a symptom of that. I know it looks like we're constantly beating up Katie Smith but in the end, it is her job to make things work. And I don't want to hear about how this team lacks talent. The WNBA is down because of all the absences, and bench players are starting throughout the league. Even for a lottery team, there is no excuse for being blown-out so often.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 08/03/19 11:41 am ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| It may have nothing to do with Zahui leaving for Europe. Previously, teams were probably sleeping on Amanda. Now they've adjusted. That's the nature of sports: adjustments and counter-adjustments. Since the team is playing a system, most of the counter-measures have to come from the coach. It has to be either in the game plan or an in-game modification. I've talked about how the Liberty struggle in rematches. Opponents alter their approach, but the Liberty don't seem to adapt. Zahui's reduced effectiveness is likely a symptom of that. I know it looks like we're constantly beating up Katie Smith but in the end, it is her job to make things work. And I don't want to hear about how this team lacks talent. The WNBA is down because of all the absences, and bench players are starting throughout the league. Even for a lottery team, there is no excuse for being blown-out so often. |
I completely agree.
Regarding beating up on Katie Smith, I don't believe anyone here is saying that the Liberty should be at or near the top of the league and seriously contending for the WNBA championship. But this team should be better than it is and certainly shouldn't be getting blown out so often.
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NYSports56
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| Posted: 08/03/19 11:44 am ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| It may have nothing to do with Zahui leaving for Europe. Previously, teams were probably sleeping on Amanda. Now they've adjusted. That's the nature of sports: adjustments and counter-adjustments. Since the team is playing a system, most of the counter-measures have to come from the coach. It has to be either in the game plan or an in-game modification. I've talked about how the Liberty struggle in rematches. Opponents alter their approach, but the Liberty don't seem to adapt. Zahui's reduced effectiveness is likely a symptom of that. I know it looks like we're constantly beating up Katie Smith but in the end, it is her job to make things work. And I don't want to hear about how this team lacks talent. The WNBA is down because of all the absences, and bench players are starting throughout the league. Even for a lottery team, there is no excuse for being blown-out so often. |
No excuse for them being blown out by the current lineup of the Wings, either. Whether it was coming off the All-Star break, on the road; I don't care: that was embarrassing.
Your point about adjusting after playing a team once is interesting. Both of Katie's seasons at the helm started off somewhat promising. The first one ended in disaster. It looks like the second one is going to end badly as well. People talk about halftime adjustments all the time, but it appears that Katie may be deficient in those midseason adjustments.
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NYSports56
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| Posted: 08/03/19 12:16 pm ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| Hartley needs to be benched and Durr & Johannes split time at SG. Johannes also played SF for a bit when Nurse was out in the first half. I do wonder if she can play back-up PG. Start grooming her now for next season to back-up (hopefully) Ionescu. She has some really nice passes that sadly weren't expected, so I think a transition to PG can happen. |
I agree: fouls and injuries aside, the minutes at shooting guard should go to Durr and Johannes. Period.
Point guard minutes should be shared by Boyd, Wright, Hartley, with a small sprinkling of Johannes just to see how the team plays with her there instead of the above 3.
Unless Johannes's minutes at point guard are extremely promising, forget about grooming her for the point, and let her focus on being what she really is: a 2. We are now hopefully set at the shooting guard position with two promising rookies. Whoever earns the minutes should get the minutes. There shouldn't be a problem with this unless both emerge as superstars. And that'd be a decent problem to have.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 08/03/19 2:33 pm ::: |
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| The other issue with Johannes, as well as Han, is that you can't count on them showing up every year. History has shown that Australians are pretty reliable, but Europeans are not. There's not much to go by for Asian players. So, every other year is probably the best you can hope for, making it difficult to build with these players as part of your core. They are simply a bonus whenever they show up. That probably feeds into Smith's reluctance to use them in more prominent roles.
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Richyyy
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| Posted: 08/03/19 3:06 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| The other issue with Johannes, as well as Han, is that you can't count on them showing up every year. History has shown that Australians are pretty reliable, but Europeans are not. There's not much to go by for Asian players. So, every other year is probably the best you can hope for, making it difficult to build with these players as part of your core. They are simply a bonus whenever they show up. That probably feeds into Smith's reluctance to use them in more prominent roles. |
All of that said, y'know what makes these foreigners more likely to show up again? Feeling like there was any point in being there. They don't earn enough in this league to make the pay packet the sole reason to be there, so they're going to want to feel like part of the actual team - not just bench filler. And we've had several foreigners in this league who probably didn't deserve to be much more than that, but if you're Johannes having shown what you can do, then getting barely five minutes of action because Hartley, Wright et al just have to play instead, you're gonna get sick of it. Why bother coming back next year to piss about flying coach around the US so you can play in warmups, shootarounds and the final minutes of blowouts, when you could get a couple of months of good rest before the Olympics? |
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 08/03/19 3:18 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
| The other issue with Johannes, as well as Han, is that you can't count on them showing up every year. History has shown that Australians are pretty reliable, but Europeans are not. There's not much to go by for Asian players. So, every other year is probably the best you can hope for, making it difficult to build with these players as part of your core. They are simply a bonus whenever they show up. That probably feeds into Smith's reluctance to use them in more prominent roles. |
All of that said, y'know what makes these foreigners more likely to show up again? Feeling like there was any point in being there. They don't earn enough in this league to make the pay packet the sole reason to be there, so they're going to want to feel like part of the actual team - not just bench filler. And we've had several foreigners in this league who probably didn't deserve to be much more than that, but if you're Johannes having shown what you can do, then getting barely five minutes of action because Hartley, Wright et al just have to play instead, you're gonna get sick of it. Why bother coming back next year to piss about flying coach around the US so you can play in warmups, shootarounds and the final minutes of blowouts, when you could get a couple of months of good rest before the Olympics? |
Exactly.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 08/03/19 4:53 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
| The other issue with Johannes, as well as Han, is that you can't count on them showing up every year. History has shown that Australians are pretty reliable, but Europeans are not. There's not much to go by for Asian players. So, every other year is probably the best you can hope for, making it difficult to build with these players as part of your core. They are simply a bonus whenever they show up. That probably feeds into Smith's reluctance to use them in more prominent roles. |
All of that said, y'know what makes these foreigners more likely to show up again? Feeling like there was any point in being there. They don't earn enough in this league to make the pay packet the sole reason to be there, so they're going to want to feel like part of the actual team - not just bench filler. And we've had several foreigners in this league who probably didn't deserve to be much more than that, but if you're Johannes having shown what you can do, then getting barely five minutes of action because Hartley, Wright et al just have to play instead, you're gonna get sick of it. Why bother coming back next year to piss about flying coach around the US so you can play in warmups, shootarounds and the final minutes of blowouts, when you could get a couple of months of good rest before the Olympics? |
I agree, just pointing out that those considerations are there. Tsai said in a couple of interviews that the interest in Han came from Kolb. We don't know who's idea it was to sign Johannes. Maybe that was Kolb too. So, while Smith may not object to having Johannes and Han on the team, she may not feel committed to them either. If they're not "her guys", and their future loyalty to the team is unknown, then you can see why Smith would place them lower in the pecking order. As for who should show commitment first, I suppose it's like dating. It should magically happen simultaneously. 
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Bob Lamm
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Stormeo
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| Posted: 08/04/19 4:23 am ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| root_thing wrote: |
| I agree, just pointing out that those considerations are there. Tsai said in a couple of interviews that the interest in Han came from Kolb. We don't know who's idea it was to sign Johannes. Maybe that was Kolb too. So, while Smith may not object to having Johannes and Han on the team, she may not feel committed to them either. If they're not "her guys", and their future loyalty to the team is unknown, then you can see why Smith would place them lower in the pecking order. As for who should show commitment first, I suppose it's like dating. It should magically happen simultaneously. |
On one level, I can understand a coach being committed to "her guys," especially when the future loyalty of Johannes and/or Han is uncertain. But Katie's "her guys" are going to get her fired when the season ends. |
I agree with this, and I also have to wonder how much direction the front office is giving Katie. It is in her best interest, especially as part of the "old regime", to follow whatever orders the front office gives her as closely as she can when it comes to how to play her personnel, in order to keep her job. Is it that they're doing so and she's trying to follow these orders but failing at it? Is she trying not to follow these orders for reasons she believes in? Or, is it that they're giving her most of the freedom to coach as she pleases and she's simply not getting results? A follow-up question could also be, whether it be by having a lot of control or letting her have the control, how much is the front office trying to sabotage her so this can all lead to hiring a new coach of their choosing? Not to be too much of a conspiracy theorist 
Another consideration: next year's Olympics. France and China will most certainly be there, so I'm guessing Johannes and Xu will likely not be in New York, at least for parts if not most of the 2020 season. So what are each of their short-term goals for this season, and how do they fit into the Liberty's long-term plans? Does either the coaches or the players consider this year a tryout for either one of them? in which the coaches figure out how much potential they have for this league, and the players each figure out if they want to regularly be a part of this league year in and year out. Or is everyone working under the assumption that these players will be part of the Liberty's future plans, and this year is a true rookie year for each of them in that they're simply learning how to become regular contributors from the ground-up? Obviously for Johannes, she has shown she can contribute right away, but we probably all wonder about her star potential and how much she can and wants to grow her WNBA game. For Xu, she's younger and it'll be a tougher climb for her (and sounds like it already has been thus far), so there are a lot more questions. Maybe this is just a general exploratory year for her and she doesn't yet know how much she wants to commit to this league and developing herself for it.
Apologies if any/all of what I said has already been hashed out. There sure are a lot of questions to this team, especially this year. So many ongoing transitions, so many unknowns...
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Shades
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| Posted: 08/04/19 7:24 am ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| Just throwing this out there for discussion. What if the asking price for Maya Moore was Kia Nurse and two firsts? Would you guys do it? |
Update for 2020, same deal, except one of the #1’s is Ionescu?
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toad455
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| Posted: 08/04/19 8:04 am ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| Just throwing this out there for discussion. What if the asking price for Maya Moore was Kia Nurse and two firsts? Would you guys do it? |
Update for 2020, same deal, except one of the #1’s is Ionescu? |
No. Unless Moore is going to be our PG, I'll pass. Moore will turn 31 next season, so I'd rather keep our young crop of players now and build on them.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 08/04/19 8:16 am ::: |
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| Stormeo wrote: |
I agree with this, and I also have to wonder how much direction the front office is giving Katie. It is in her best interest, especially as part of the "old regime", to follow whatever orders the front office gives her as closely as she can when it comes to how to play her personnel, in order to keep her job. Is it that they're doing so and she's trying to follow these orders but failing at it? Is she trying not to follow these orders for reasons she believes in? Or, is it that they're giving her most of the freedom to coach as she pleases and she's simply not getting results? A follow-up question could also be, whether it be by having a lot of control or letting her have the control, how much is the front office trying to sabotage her so this can all lead to hiring a new coach of their choosing? Not to be too much of a conspiracy theorist
Another consideration: next year's Olympics. France and China will most certainly be there, so I'm guessing Johannes and Xu will likely not be in New York, at least for parts if not most of the 2020 season. So what are each of their short-term goals for this season, and how do they fit into the Liberty's long-term plans? Does either the coaches or the players consider this year a tryout for either one of them? in which the coaches figure out how much potential they have for this league, and the players each figure out if they want to regularly be a part of this league year in and year out. Or is everyone working under the assumption that these players will be part of the Liberty's future plans, and this year is a true rookie year for each of them in that they're simply learning how to become regular contributors from the ground-up? Obviously for Johannes, she has shown she can contribute right away, but we probably all wonder about her star potential and how much she can and wants to grow her WNBA game. For Xu, she's younger and it'll be a tougher climb for her (and sounds like it already has been thus far), so there are a lot more questions. Maybe this is just a general exploratory year for her and she doesn't yet know how much she wants to commit to this league and developing herself for it.
Apologies if any/all of what I said has already been hashed out. There sure are a lot of questions to this team, especially this year. So many ongoing transitions, so many unknowns... |
Anything is possible, but consider this. Johannes had a spectacular game recently. Did the GM then tell Katie: keep her on the bench for the first 15 minutes of the following game and be sure she plays only half as many minutes as Hartley or Wright?
And this: the GM can pick a new coach for 2020 no matter what. It's hard to imagine that with or without front office interference and sabotaging the Liberty are going to end up with such a terrific season that the GM won't be able to fire Katie.
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Shades
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Shades
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| Posted: 08/04/19 8:27 am ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| Shades wrote: |
| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
| Just throwing this out there for discussion. What if the asking price for Maya Moore was Kia Nurse and two firsts? Would you guys do it? |
Update for 2020, same deal, except one of the #1’s is Ionescu? |
No. Unless Moore is going to be our PG, I'll pass. Moore will turn 31 next season, so I'd rather keep our young crop of players now and build on them. |
Seems like your goal isn’t to win a championship but to forever build. How long have you guys been building, about 23 years? It might be time to make a move towards a championship. Charles ain’t getting any younger. And you may find this hard to believe, but Charles is even older than Maya. 🤭
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Shades
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 08/04/19 8:46 am ::: |
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I definitely wouldn't trade Kia Nurse and two #1 picks for Maya Moore. Even if Moore decides to return to the WNBA next season, who knows how long she'll continue playing? What if Moore says she'll play in 2020, we make that trade, she plays one season for the Liberty, then retires?
I don't know that I'd make the trade, given Moore's age, even if we were sure she'd play for the Liberty for a few years. Given the uncertainty about her future, I vote "no."
And consider this. Suppose Moore says she'll play in 2020 and we make that trade. What's our team for next season? Moore, Charles, Durr, and nine question marks. I'd consider the trade if I felt Moore gave us a serious chance of an immediate championship. But I don't believe she would.
Last edited by Bob Lamm on 08/04/19 8:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Luuuc
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| Posted: 08/04/19 8:50 am ::: |
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| I think even the Knicks wouldn't touch a deal like that!
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root_thing
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| Posted: 08/04/19 9:40 am ::: |
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Based on the last article/interview I read with Moore, it sounds like she's not sure if she wants to play basketball anymore. She's now preoccupied with religion and social justice. When people start asking the big existential questions, then walking away is a lot easier. The only question is how much does Maya need the money?
As for Tina, I would no longer be planning around her either. Maybe she can take a year off and regain her form, but right now she's a shadow of her old self. As far as I'm concerned, we've got Nurse and Durr as a core to build around. That's it right now.
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Stormeo
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| Posted: 08/07/19 8:19 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| As for Tina, I would no longer be planning around her either. Maybe she can take a year off and regain her form, but right now she's a shadow of her old self. |
I feel like the year to take off was this year. A) We all know the Liberty wasn't gonna be a contender this year anyway, with or without Charles. B) This in all likelihood is the last year at WCC before moving back to one of the boroughs - who knows how much her family is able to make the trip out to see her? C) Maybe she makes significantly more money as a star player when the CBA gets re-negotiated, which would deter sitting out a year?
Though Tina Charles definitely doesn't seem like the type of person to just take off a year all willy-nilly, if she were really taking off a year, it would be because of a severe-enough injury or true, complete exhaustion.
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toad455
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| Posted: 08/07/19 8:39 pm ::: |
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| I can't Charles taking off next season of they're playing in Brooklyn.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 08/07/19 9:08 pm ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| I can't Charles taking off next season of they're playing in Brooklyn. |
Definitely agree.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 08/08/19 8:17 am ::: |
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| People are missing my point. Ever since Charles joined the Liberty, the mantra has been let's get Tina some help and we'll be a championship contender. However, the way she had played most of this season, I felt it was time to call that assumption into question. My post went up before the last two games were played. As luck would have it, Tina had back-to-back decent shooting games for the first time in about a month. Maybe this signals some kind of resurgence for Tina. I hope so. However, it's worth mentioning that other aspects of her game -- specifically defense and rebounding -- are also in decline. Any way you slice it, if we don't see a bounceback, if Charles finishes the season the way she has played most of this year, then it's legitimate to wonder whether her reign as a star player is over. That's why I mentioned sitting out next season. Not that Tina would want to sit out as much as maybe she'd feel the need to rest and rejuvenate her body. Restoring her skills and saving her career is certainly more important than being there when the team moves to Brooklyn.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 08/08/19 8:50 am ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| Restoring her skills and saving her career is certainly more important than being there when the team moves to Brooklyn. |
I agree with your statement, but that doesn't mean that Tina Charles will agree with you. Assuming that the Liberty are moving to the Barclay Center for 2020, I'll be shocked if Tina Charles isn't there.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
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| Posted: 08/08/19 9:57 am ::: |
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I also want to point out, the offense is completely different since the All-Star break. Even when Tina gets the ball in higher volume, she’s positioned much higher in the offense to a greater extent. Yes, she still posts up, but not with the frequency prior. If we see a new coach, I’m confident we will see a far greater emphasis on a perimeter-oriented offense.
I think the main question for next year becomes, if we miss Ionescu, do you go after Cox or Sabally (if she declares) or do you go after Dangerfield? Personally I think I’d take the higher value over the PG and try to trade for the PG. If next year is executed correctly, the Liberty should be in position to lower Charles’ volume while becoming a winning team. The talent is unequivocally going to be there at 4 of 5 positions on the floor at least.
In regard to a Tina resurgence, I don’t think it’s coincidental that a different offensive structure has taken place simultaneously. If an upper-tier PG was running this offense, I think it would have potential to be great.
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