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toad455



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 5:46 pm    ::: New York Liberty 2019 Reply Reply with quote

heck, the other thread is long enough and were basically talking about 2019 and beyond anyways.

Keepers: Charles(UFA but likely cored), Nurse, Boyd(RFA), Zahui B(RFA), Hartley(RFA), Zellous(UFA?).
Bubble: Rodgers, Prince(UFA?), Stokes(signed, but tradable).
Must Go: Vaughn, Coleman, R. Allen



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 5:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Finding new owners must be priority number one for the Liberty. Everything else can be fixed or adjusted once that happens.



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toad455



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 6:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I hope the Plaisance airplane report comes true that Liberty will play in Brooklyn.



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 6:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
I hope the Plaisance airplane report comes true that Liberty will play in Brooklyn.


Living off an airplane report #StoryOfALibertyFan



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 6:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Rock Hard wrote:
Finding new owners must be priority number one for the Liberty. Everything else can be fixed or adjusted once that happens.

CO-SIGN


Shades



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 6:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
I hope the Plaisance airplane report comes true that Liberty will play in Brooklyn.


She probably reads Barcoff’s forum. Razz



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 6:24 pm    ::: Re: New York Liberty 2019 Reply Reply with quote

toad455 wrote:
heck, the other thread is long enough and were basically talking about 2019 and beyond anyways.

Keepers: Charles(UFA but likely cored), Nurse, Boyd(RFA), Zahui B(RFA), Hartley(RFA), Zellous(UFA?).
Bubble: Rodgers, Prince(UFA?), Stokes(signed, but tradable).
Must Go: Vaughn, Coleman, R. Allen


I put my list toward the end of the other thread, but I'll adapt here to your format. I agree with you except....

For me, Hartley isn't a Keeper. I'm OK if she's back and OK if she isn't. I definitely view Stokes as a Keeper.

I won't say that Katie Smith "Must Go," but I'd much prefer to see a new and experienced coach.

My Must Go list includes Prince and Rodgers. Time to make a new start in the backcourt. And, above all, my Must Go list includes Hideous Lord Jimmy and sexual harasser Isiah. I don't expect them to be gone, but one can hope.



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 6:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The lottery now pretty much needs to be a two year stay if it is going to do much good (barring exception luck). Might as well keep Smith and a lot of the other players that seem marginal. I would get rid of Coleman, Prince and maybe Zealous though. These players will likely never get better. They may leave anyway.


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PostPosted: 08/20/18 7:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
The lottery now pretty much needs to be a two year stay if it is going to do much good (barring exception luck). Might as well keep Smith and a lot of the other players that seem marginal. I would get rid of Coleman, Prince and maybe Zealous though. These players will likely never get better. They may leave anyway.


I don't understand the logic of keeping players that seem marginal unless they are young players who genuinely may get better. I don't see 2019 being a terrific season for the Liberty no matter what. So I'd mainly clean house and get a look at some different players.

And I'd only keep Katie Smith if you really think she's on the road to becoming an excellent coach. Perhaps that's true, perhaps that isn't. I am very skeptical.



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Lib Fan



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 7:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:


And I'd only keep Katie Smith if you really think she's on the road to becoming an excellent coach. Perhaps that's true, perhaps that isn't. I am very skeptical.


so was Patty Coyle on her way to becoming an excellent coach Rolling Eyes



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 7:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Randy wrote:
The lottery now pretty much needs to be a two year stay if it is going to do much good (barring exception luck). Might as well keep Smith and a lot of the other players that seem marginal. I would get rid of Coleman, Prince and maybe Zealous though. These players will likely never get better. They may leave anyway.


I don't understand the logic of keeping players that seem marginal unless they are young players who genuinely may get better. I don't see 2019 being a terrific season for the Liberty no matter what. So I'd mainly clean house and get a look at some different players.

And I'd only keep Katie Smith if you really think she's on the road to becoming an excellent coach. Perhaps that's true, perhaps that isn't. I am very skeptical.


You do have to fields 11 or 12 players and if you don't keep some of the marginal ones the replacements may be limited to castaways from other teams. Plus, some players do take a long time to grow into the job. Jaz Thomas for example, took a long time grow into the PG role. Now - if the Liberty had the opportunity to sign someone clearly better than some of the current Liberty players, or younger players with a higher ceiling then by all means they should. Until the ownership situation is resolved then signing better players or a better coach seems difficult.


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PostPosted: 08/20/18 8:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:

I don't understand the logic of keeping players that seem marginal unless they are young players who genuinely may get better. I don't see 2019 being a terrific season for the Liberty no matter what. So I'd mainly clean house and get a look at some different players.

How many different players are out there? Who's going to want to come here?


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PostPosted: 08/20/18 8:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If they stay in outer Mongolia (relatively speaking) I would imagine that any Liberty UFA who can escape, will, and any good non-Liberty UFA will choose someplace else...so the landscape is bleak. And it wouldn't surprise me if Tina demanded a trade. She's done it before...



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 9:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYSports56 wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:

I don't understand the logic of keeping players that seem marginal unless they are young players who genuinely may get better. I don't see 2019 being a terrific season for the Liberty no matter what. So I'd mainly clean house and get a look at some different players.

How many different players are out there? Who's going to want to come here?


Hey, I'm not talking about recruiting 60 new players for a pro football team. Let's say that seven of the current Liberty players return in 2019. So New York would need five new players. That would very likely include two draft picks. So then the Liberty would only need THREE new players obtained through trades or free agency. Sorry, but I don't see that it would be all that difficult to find three new players.

As for "Who's going to want to come here?", if the Liberty can't do any better, then I'd rather see young, hungry, marginal WNBA players who may or may not ever get better than veterans on the down side of their careers. I only exclude Charles and Zellous from that generalization... and I'm skeptical Zellous will return.



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 9:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Just spit balling, but I think Tina will stay if she gets who she wants on the team. She would rather be closer to home than half way cross the country as she seems to have stuck it out this long.


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PostPosted: 08/20/18 9:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
If they stay in outer Mongolia (relatively speaking) I would imagine that any Liberty UFA who can escape, will, and any good non-Liberty UFA will choose someplace else...so the landscape is bleak. And it wouldn't surprise me if Tina demanded a trade. She's done it before...

The Mongolia Liberty--maybe they should call themselves that until they come back from exile! Smile

Yes, Tina has demanded a trade before, but that was to be in her home town. It would be different if she demanded a trade to leave her home town. Unless her #1 priority is to win a championship before she retires, I don't think she's going to demand a trade.

What's her contract situation right now? I thought she was a free agent, but I don't pay that much attention to contracts.

Whether Tina demands it or not, if the Liberty can get back some young talent with genuine star potential, they should consider trading her. I don't know that they'll be able to build a contender around her any time soon.


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PostPosted: 08/20/18 10:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't think fans should simply assume that free agents would never consider the Liberty. Remember, WCC isn't that bad compared with a lot of foreign arenas. That doesn't prevent American players from playing overseas. Yes, the arena situation is definitely a negative, and I think the ownership situation is an even bigger negative. However, when all is said and done, money and playing time are probably the biggest considerations for a young free agent. If the Liberty are willing to give a bench player a chance to be a starter and make considerably more money, I'm sure some people would seriously consider their offer. After all, it's just 17 days a year at WCC for maybe 5 hours. The team still uses the same training facilities that they've always shared with the Knicks. They still live in the same area of Westchester, which is supposed to be fairly nice. And it's still within a reasonable commute to Manhattan if players want a little excitement on their days off. So no, they haven't moved to Outer Mongolia. For most purposes, they haven't moved at all.

And playing at WCC does have some advantages. It's close to the training facility and player housing, so they save time traveling to and from the arena. I know in the past there have been occasions when the Knicks rented hotel rooms across the street from MSG to take naps and save travel time going back to Westchester. Roundtrip, that's probably 2-3 hours saved. Also, I don't know if the LIberty have done it, but in theory they could travel out pf White Plains Airport rather than use one of the Big Three. That should save them both local travel time and wait time because it's usually easier to get through smaller airports. WCC sucks for the fans, and it's not great for players from an ego standpoint, but from a day-to-day living perspective it ain't that bad.



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 10:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Agree with the above. In general, whether it's MSG or WCC, the state of the team is probably a greater factor. In general, things like coaching philosophy, money, playing time, winning and stability (as in knowing we will have a team) would be greater factors.

Here's my view of 2019:

KEEP: Tina, Nurse, Stokes, Zahui, Boyd, Allen, Sugar, Hartley
BUBBLE: Zellous, Piph
OUT: Coleman, Vaughn

As for some of the "keeps", we saw how well Stokes played in the last few games when she was finally 100%. Even if we draft a post, she's a great player to come off the bench when healthy. Regarding Hartley, she drives me bananas. I would not mind seeing her replaced by a better player. The problem is finding a PG is awfully, awfully difficult. We aren't likely to luck into a Tanisha Wright type who happened to perfectly fit the system as a non-pg "point guard". We aren't drafting a lottery PG. So barring a trade of some magnitude, I think she is a Lib next year. Sugar also drives me bananas. I also think her trade value is at its lowest point. I do think there are teams (LA, Minnesota) that would have real use for her. But unless she can be dealt for some type of value I'd rather keep her at least as a spark off the bench on defense. Since I'm not sure she has much trade value, I added her as a "keep". Regarding Bec, I think they have plans for her in 2019. They posted her up a ton in the final few games and she actually looked pretty good doing it. She may still have upside and she can at least be a decent hybrid 3/4 defender. May as well keep her. If Z goes, someone other than Nurse and possibly a draftee has to be able to play SF.

Z is a bubble player for the obvious reason of being a UFA. Ditto Piph. I could see Piph potentially being back for one reason. To keep Tina happy, as they are clearly friends.

The two outs are obvious. If either is on the Liberty next year I may need potent tranquilizers.

I think 2-3 new players is your most realistic goal. Your lottery pick will make the team. Your second rounder is probable but not a guarantee to make it. That means you need 1-2 more new players, likely via FA unless there's some suddenly creative roster movement. I think adding one FA is realistic, just because there usually aren't that many quality ones, and most stay with their teams. Unless it's someone like Wright who wanted to play in NY, getting more than one is not likely.



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 11:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LV doesn't have a 2nd round pick and ours is really good #14 in what looks like a deep draft could have some value.

I am still convinced that BL will not stick with Jefferson

So is something like Hartley and our 2nd round pick for Jefferson in the realm of possibility. (Jefferson/Boyd fastest PG duo in the league could be something?)

PS I actually really like Hartley, even though she high dribbles and has lapse when she is playing PG and gets pick pocketed. I am fine with her as a 6 woman some time PG some time shooter off the bench, and she is definitely under contract so I say we keep her unless an opportunity like this come along.

I would probably consider the same trade pieces for Copper as well

Or ISM




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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 11:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think it's a lock Laimbeer would move Jefferson. Not only because she's small. While it's possible she could return to form, I thought her explosiveness was minimal this year coming off injury and she was unfathomably awful defensively. Lacking quickness to stay in front of opponents as well as lacking strength to avoid being outmuscled. If you trade for her, there's a legitimate risk.

She is, however a true PG. And I'd be happy to move Hartley and pick 14 for her but that's it. Nothing more. And if that's not enough, so be it. To me, she's too risky right now.

I'd be more open to Plum, who I think will eventually be an elite offensive player in the right system with potentially passable defense in the right scheme and with rim protection behind her. She really struggled with quick offensive players, especially late in the season I thought. But, she's surprisingly good at pushing tempo and seems to know the LV offense really well. Really good ATO too. I doubt she would be attainable at this point. Her strengths outweighed her weaknesses this year and I think she did enough things to engage herself successfully in Laimbeer's offense that she'd be very difficult to acquire.



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PostPosted: 08/20/18 11:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I think it's a lock Laimbeer would move Jefferson. Not only because she's small. While it's possible she could return to form, I thought her explosiveness was minimal this year coming off injury and she was unfathomably awful defensively. Lacking quickness to stay in front of opponents as well as lacking strength to avoid being outmuscled. If you trade for her, there's a legitimate risk.

She is, however a true PG. And I'd be happy to move Hartley and pick 14 for her but that's it. Nothing more. And if that's not enough, so be it. To me, she's too risky right now.


But that risk is the only thing that might make her gettable which is the kind of move NY will probably have to make to have any serious chance at improvement even if the move is a bust.

I was wrong about ISM being a RFA so I would try the same trade for her.

And as I said Copper.

Harrison is a RFA so I would probably at least make Laimbeer think about it by offering her the max. Considering she never played in LV he might not miss her enough to match. She isn't really a center but I think she is better than Stokes or Zahui B and pretty much falls in the same size range and would at least give us a little depth in the post.


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PostPosted: 08/20/18 11:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not going all in on my 2019 plan yet but some 11/12 spot players I would look to bring to camp

Chong, Burdick, S. Thomas, Muldrow


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PostPosted: 08/21/18 12:19 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If Jefferson has lost her quickness, I'd rather keep #14 and use it on Kea if she's available. Jefferson's entire game is based on quickness. When that's gone, there's no Jefferson left. Otherwise, I'd be fine with bringing in a bunch of people and throwing them up against the wall to see who sticks: Chong, Goodwin, Peterson, etc. And then there's the ghost of Olcay Cakir. If Cakir is coming sooner or later, it's already too late for soon and soon it will be too late for later.



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 8:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Your backup point guard does not have to be amazing. She just needs to be competent at bringing the ball up the court and to not turn the ball over to the other team.



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 9:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Rock Hard wrote:
Your backup point guard does not have to be amazing. She just needs to be competent at bringing the ball up the court and to not turn the ball over to the other team.


It’s nice having amazing PG on the bench just in case your main PG goes down and you still want a legitimate chance at a championship. Isn’t it usually pretty nice having Faulkner backing up Vandersloot.... and there doesn’t appear to be any ego issues? Nice thing to have. Although Faulkner seems to have fallen to the serious injury bug lately.



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 9:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Rock Hard wrote:
Your backup point guard does not have to be amazing. She just needs to be competent at bringing the ball up the court and to not turn the ball over to the other team.


It’s nice having amazing PG on the bench just in case your main PG goes down and you still want a legitimate chance at a championship. Isn’t it usually pretty nice having Faulkner backing up Vandersloot.... and there doesn’t appear to be any ego issues? Nice thing to have. Although Faulkner seems to have fallen to the serious injury bug lately.

Nice, yes it is. The backup point guard does not have to be a superstar, just competent to have a successful team. Your backup point guard will only play ten to twelve minutes per game anyway. Bring the ball up the court and don't turn it over.



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 10:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think it's a mistake to worry too much about players 8-12 on the roster ... you're going to win or lose with your top seven.

(Side note: The Liberty are one of the most important franchises in the league if they play anywhere near NYC. If they are permanently in WCC, they become less relevant, but still can have a major impact on the overall perception of the league but only if they're really good. Thus, we should all care, and even though I reflexively dislike all teams from New York, I have to concede the Liberty need to figure it out.)

PG: Boyd -- nice player, probably not a starter for a championship team.
SG: Nurse -- if she develops. Not a great first year, but there's hope.
SF: ?
Posts: Stokes -- like Boyd, a nice player but limited; Charles -- a legit star, but the window is closing, has to play the five when Stokes is in; Zahui B -- there's hope, but despite looking good to casual fans, coaches seem to not play her as much as her offensive stats would suggest.

The others either aren't good enough to make a difference or won't be around when the team is/might be good. The core (above) is adequate, but clearly the team needs at least two more elite players. Hopefully one of the youngsters (Nurse?) develops into one of them, and the team drafts another. Trading the spare parts will only get spare parts in return, and trading the youngsters with potential will only get aging veterans.

In the short run, Katie Smith is not the problem unless she's impeding the improvement of Nurse, Stokes, Zahui B. But if more talent arrives, it would appear a better coach must be found as well.

Hey, I'm 3,000 miles away, so how can I be wrong?



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 10:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

You can sometimes do two things at once. Given that Boyd is not a proven starter, and Hartley is more of a combo guard who gets exposed when she spends too much time at point, bringing in a new backup PG is also a de facto audition for starter. Obviously, some people have more potential than others. Who has how much potential is purely subjective. For instance, many Liberty fans like Lindsay Allen because they view her as an intelligent ballhandler with good vision. Other people point to her low scoring output, and they view her conservative ballhandling as timid. The former group believes Allen can develop into a quality starter while the latter thinks she is strictly backup material. The two factions will likely talk past each other.

I don't think PG is New York's most pressing need -- starter or backup. However, if an opportunity presents itself to acquire a talented player on the cheap or to pick up a steal in the draft, then why not take it?



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 3:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The fact that Lindsay Allen made one of 16 threes for the season is, I think, cause for some muting of enthusiasm.



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 3:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lindsay Allen is a slightly larger Tully Bevilaqua



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 4:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Lindsay Allen is a slightly larger Tully Bevilaqua


Tully could actually hit the open 3 though .



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PostPosted: 08/21/18 4:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I just received a Disrespected Ledge alert and had to log in to see what it was about.



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PostPosted: 08/24/18 12:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm glad the lottery is in a few days. At least we will have a better idea of where we stand in a short time instead of having to wait.



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PostPosted: 08/24/18 2:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I'm glad the lottery is in a few days. At least we will have a better idea of where we stand in a short time instead of having to wait.


Praying for #2?



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 9:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I say give Katie Smith another year before booting her. The Liberty’s issue this season was more that they were pretty much stagnant while the rest of the league improved. One of Rodgers/Prince needs to go. I’d move Zealous to the bench. Dumb Zealous and Allen Nurse should be the starting SG. SF and C should be the main priorities this offseason. If Stokes can get healthy and put in the work she could probably start at Center, if not she needs to be a back up.
The Liberty need to go for KLS.

Boyd/Hartley
Nurse/Rodgers or Prince/Draft pick or FA
KLS/Zealous
Charles/Zauhi B/Draft pick or FA
Stokes/ Draft pick or FA



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 9:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
I just received a Disrespected Ledge alert and had to log in to see what it was about.



Laughing Laughing Laughing


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PostPosted: 08/25/18 1:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I've gone back to rewatch a lot of the NCAA tournament games as well as viewing some additional highlight clips of players. I would say my opinion has shifted somewhat, but not drastically. McCowan is not the reliable shot-blocker that I thought she was, and as I pointed out previously, neither is Brown. So, I'm less confident about the defensive impact of the two centers. Still, they're better than anything we currently have, and as Carolyn Swords has proven, there's some benefit to simply being big. In sports, big is practically a skill. It's like in Deadpool 2 when we learn that luck is a superpower... But I digress. In the MSU-UCLA -game, McCowan looked terrible -- missing a bunch of bunnies and constantly falling to the floor because she's bad at positioning and unable to maintain her balance when she jumps. And yet, after the game you look at the box score and there's Teaira with 23 points and 21 rebounds. If that's what you get when McCowan looks bad, imagine if she ever looks good. Also, McCowan played all 45 minutes of that OT game. "Big galoots" don't have that kind of stamina and they don't have the discipline to stay out of foul trouble for 45 minutes.

Laksa moved up a little bit for me because she has more of an off-the-dribble game than I remembered. I was not aware of Paris Kea's turnover problem until Myrtle mentioned it. However, I'm giving her a pass because Paris is both the lead ballhandler and the primary scorer. Turnovers tend to be higher when you wear both hats. Regarding Durr, I came away with the impression that she is NOT a ballhog.

Things keep evolving, and I'm sure they'll change some more during the WCBB season, but right now I don't feel that strongly about who we take with our first pick if it's between McCowan, Brown, KLS and Durr. I still think Collier wouldn't help NY as much based on need (size in the paint, outside scoring), and while Ogunbowale's big shot ability is intriguing, her lack of size and ball dominance makes me nervous. Obviously, it would be nice to draft as high as possible, giving us greater control over who we select. However, at this point, I'm really not that worked up over the ping-pong balls. The #14 pick actually concerns me more. I'm pretty sure there will be a useful rotation player available, someone who could help us off the bench the way Boyd and Stokes did in 2015. In order to get the most out of that pick, management must have an awareness of roster balance. Katie Smith needs to think through how she intends to use her players. Then they should take someone who will likely get regular minutes.

So, what we're talking about is a possible four-step upgrade for next season:
1) Get a new starter at #4
2) Improve the bench with #14
3) Let Nurse start somewhere and hope that she becomes more consistent
4) Sign a free agent to upgrade a position that isn't already covered by Steps 1,2,3

I think that's a realistic plan. Obviously, there are no guarantees at any step, but all you can do is make a plan and try to execute it. I'm sick of these people who keep saying you won't get a star or you won't get an impact player or you won't challenge for a championship. What, is it all or nothing? If you're not a favorite to win the championship, then you should just roll over and give up? Saying stuff like that is just lazy, and it's not like multiple incremental changes can't add up to significant improvement.



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 2:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Does Tina Charles want to leave New York for DC ?


root_thing



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 3:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

SportsGuru wrote:
Does Tina Charles want to leave New York for DC ?


As far as I know, Tina hasn't said anything about being unhappy or leaving. Supposedly, she signed a one year contract, but that could be because the union is expected to opt out of the CBA.



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 3:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
SportsGuru wrote:
Does Tina Charles want to leave New York for DC ?


As far as I know, Tina hasn't said anything about being unhappy or leaving. Supposedly, she signed a one year contract, but that could be because the union is expected to opt out of the CBA.

The CBA still won't actually become null until after next season, so she could've signed for two years and become a free agent again under whatever new rules they decide on.



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 5:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My guess has always been the Tina signed a 1 year deal because of the uncertainty. If NY folded she would become an ufa instead go in the dispersal draft. If NY relocated even if the new team cored her she would still be unsigned which would give her more leverage to demand a trade or just sit out. And it us a low risk move if things stay uncertain she will be cored and maxed again anyway.


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PostPosted: 08/25/18 6:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Where did the story about Tina signing a one-year contract come from? Does anyone have a link?



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 6:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
Where did the story about Tina signing a one-year contract come from? Does anyone have a link?

There was never any announcement that she signed a contract, single-year, multi-year or otherwise. I presume it's part assumption, part belief in the Megdal Spreadsheet of Doom.



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PostPosted: 08/25/18 8:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I'm sick of these people who keep saying you won't get a star or you won't get an impact player or you won't challenge for a championship. What, is it all or nothing? If you're not a favorite to win the championship, then you should just roll over and give up? Saying stuff like that is just lazy, and it's not like multiple incremental changes can't add up to significant improvement.


I'm one of those who has said that I can't see the Liberty challenging for a championship in 2019. But I never expressed any "all or nothing" feeling. Quite the contrary. I said at least once in writing that my hope was for New York to get to .500 or a little better in 2019 and then be a genuine championship contender in 2020.

Imagine that the Liberty played in 2019 with the same 12 players as this season. No new players coming from the draft or free agency. I'd still be hoping for improvement from Nurse, Boyd, and Zahui B., plus much more from a healthy Kiah Stokes than she gave the team through most of this season. So right there, even without help from new players, the team could be better.

Absolutely no reason to roll over and give up. With improvement from the four players I've mentioned, plus contributions from our #4 and #14 picks and from a free agent or two, the Liberty can certainly be a good deal better.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 08/26/18 10:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

root_thing wrote:
I've gone back to rewatch a lot of the NCAA tournament games as well as viewing some additional highlight clips of players. I would say my opinion has shifted somewhat, but not drastically. McCowan is not the reliable shot-blocker that I thought she was, and as I pointed out previously, neither is Brown. So, I'm less confident about the defensive impact of the two centers. Still, they're better than anything we currently have, and as Carolyn Swords has proven, there's some benefit to simply being big. In sports, big is practically a skill. It's like in Deadpool 2 when we learn that luck is a superpower... But I digress. In the MSU-UCLA -game, McCowan looked terrible -- missing a bunch of bunnies and constantly falling to the floor because she's bad at positioning and unable to maintain her balance when she jumps. And yet, after the game you look at the box score and there's Teaira with 23 points and 21 rebounds. If that's what you get when McCowan looks bad, imagine if she ever looks good. Also, McCowan played all 45 minutes of that OT game. "Big galoots" don't have that kind of stamina and they don't have the discipline to stay out of foul trouble for 45 minutes.

Laksa moved up a little bit for me because she has more of an off-the-dribble game than I remembered. I was not aware of Paris Kea's turnover problem until Myrtle mentioned it. However, I'm giving her a pass because Paris is both the lead ballhandler and the primary scorer. Turnovers tend to be higher when you wear both hats. Regarding Durr, I came away with the impression that she is NOT a ballhog.

Things keep evolving, and I'm sure they'll change some more during the WCBB season, but right now I don't feel that strongly about who we take with our first pick if it's between McCowan, Brown, KLS and Durr. I still think Collier wouldn't help NY as much based on need (size in the paint, outside scoring), and while Ogunbowale's big shot ability is intriguing, her lack of size and ball dominance makes me nervous. Obviously, it would be nice to draft as high as possible, giving us greater control over who we select. However, at this point, I'm really not that worked up over the ping-pong balls. The #14 pick actually concerns me more. I'm pretty sure there will be a useful rotation player available, someone who could help us off the bench the way Boyd and Stokes did in 2015. In order to get the most out of that pick, management must have an awareness of roster balance. Katie Smith needs to think through how she intends to use her players. Then they should take someone who will likely get regular minutes.

So, what we're talking about is a possible four-step upgrade for next season:
1) Get a new starter at #4
2) Improve the bench with #14
3) Let Nurse start somewhere and hope that she becomes more consistent
4) Sign a free agent to upgrade a position that isn't already covered by Steps 1,2,3

I think that's a realistic plan. Obviously, there are no guarantees at any step, but all you can do is make a plan and try to execute it. I'm sick of these people who keep saying you won't get a star or you won't get an impact player or you won't challenge for a championship. What, is it all or nothing? If you're not a favorite to win the championship, then you should just roll over and give up? Saying stuff like that is just lazy, and it's not like multiple incremental changes can't add up to significant improvement.


Regarding McCowan, it’s funny because I think your posts were what ultimately got me wanting her at #1. I tend to try to look at players in terms of certain physical attributes and then look at what could potentially improve. McCowan’s balance on both ends of the floor is without a doubt a work in progress. But what I really like about her as far as WNBA potential is her agility. The defensive 3-second rule necessitates post defenders who can cover ground quickly. McCowan can do that because she’s highly agile at her size. At the same time, balance and footwork can be taught. So you take someone like her with very high natural talent at her size, and figure the upside is there.

Regarding Stokes, seeing her at 100% was a reminder of how effective she can be, especially defending on a switch. To me the only post player in the league better at that is Griner. To have her being a proficient backup along with Zahui being a solid backup for Tina, that would be some nice depth in the post.

We will know more on Tuesday though. It honestly wouldn’t be the worst year to have a #4 pick I guess...as the difference between 1-4 is much more minimal than it normally is. Ionescu declaring would change that part of the equation however.

Generally speaking, a “big 3” nucleus is normally a good starting point. A KLS, Nurse, Tina grouping along with a hopefully improving Boyd and a hopefully healthy Stokes looks pretty good on paper. Durr, Nurse, Tina is intriguing from a 3-point shooting standpoint as Durr can really shoot it...and create her own shot. A Collier, Nurse, Tina grouping is also intriguing from a standpoint of 2-way dictation of play on the wings....something Minnesota has done well and something that the 2015 Fever were very successful at in almost winning the Championship. Any of the above groupings would be a marked improvement as any of my top 5 (McC, Brown, KLS, Durr, Collier) should be day 1 WNBA starters unless blocked by a better player on the depth chart somehow. I don’t think I’ve ever thought that about 5 players in one draft but in its own way this draft is highly unique. For a change, given the Libs’ misfortune this season, I’ve watched the top players on whatever available games there are to stream. I’ve never done that in a summer before, but I had to reach somewhere for hope.



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Last edited by NYL_WNBA_FAN on 08/26/18 10:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: 08/26/18 10:31 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:

To have her being a proficient backup along with Zahui being a solid backup for Tina, that would be some nice depth in the post.


You guys have already decided to pay Hartley and Stokes elevated but not quite max salaries. Will you be willing or able to do the same for Zahui? Hopefully Reeve will bid Zahui up.



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PostPosted: 08/26/18 10:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I’m not that worried about it. Z and Piph are likely FAs. The money is there.



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PostPosted: 08/26/18 11:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I’m not that worried about it. Z and Piph are likely FAs. The money is there.


Boyd is another player you’ll have to pay. Sugar Rodgers?

Looks like Coleman accepted a rock bottom salary. There wasn’t much to complain about that cost wise. I doubt the players I named who will be in demand will do the same.



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PostPosted: 08/26/18 11:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
I’m not that worried about it. Z and Piph are likely FAs. The money is there.


Boyd is another player you’ll have to pay. Sugar Rodgers?

Looks like Coleman accepted a rock bottom salary. There wasn’t much to complain about that cost wise. I doubt the players I named who will be in demand will do the same.


The Transactions page reports Sugar Rodgers recently signed an extension with the Liberty? Of course the Liberty never report anything, so is this 100% verified? Hurry up Megdal and update the database! Smile
http://www.wnba.com/transactions/

Any team that has common sense doesn't let top FAs go away so easily, especially top RFAs (grr). The Liberty should have enough money to keep Boyd & Zahui B at any price, unless the Liberty feel they must bring and will be able to bring back all of Vaughn, Prince, and Zellous, or don't want to keep Boyd and/or Zahui B.


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PostPosted: 08/26/18 11:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:

Generally speaking, a “big 3” nucleus is normally a good starting point. A KLS, Nurse, Tina grouping along with a hopefully improving Boyd and a hopefully healthy Stokes looks pretty good on paper. Durr, Nurse, Tina is intriguing from a 3-point shooting standpoint as Durr can really shoot it...and create her own shot. A Collier, Nurse, Tina grouping is also intriguing from a standpoint of 2-way dictation of play on the wings.....



Go for either Collier or KLS pick up Chong and keep Hartley- make the Liberty the White Plains Huskies! Smile


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