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WNBA 09
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WNBA 09
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 Posted: 02/14/19 9:25 pm ::: |
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| McCowan could be on the high end the next Sylvia Fowles or the low End of Avery Warley-Talbert
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Shades
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toad455
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| Posted: 02/15/19 5:20 am ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| McCowan could be on the high end the next Sylvia Fowles or the low End of Avery Warley-Talbert |
McCowan does have some AWT similarities.
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canadaball
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| Posted: 02/15/19 7:01 am ::: |
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| A sidelight to the current CBA is the advantage in being an undrafted free agent (assuming the ability is there). All drafted players must sign a 4 year contract; thus, for example, Cambage, currently entering her 4th season (Stewart in same situation) can only be paid something like $60k, while Rebecca Allen, who was undrafted, could theoretically have been paid the $110+ max in her second season, assuming her initial free agent contract was for just one year.
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Shades
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| Posted: 02/15/19 7:39 am ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| McCowan could be on the high end the next Sylvia Fowles or the low End of Avery Warley-Talbert |
McCowan does have some AWT similarities. |
She was listed at 6’3, so maybe 6’2 actual. Not a great analogy.
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Shades
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| Posted: 02/15/19 7:42 am ::: |
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| canadaball wrote: |
| A sidelight to the current CBA is the advantage in being an undrafted free agent (assuming the ability is there). All drafted players must sign a 4 year contract; thus, for example, Cambage, currently entering her 4th season (Stewart in same situation) can only be paid something like $60k, while Rebecca Allen, who was undrafted, could theoretically have been paid the $110+ max in her second season, assuming her initial free agent contract was for just one year. |
This sounds highly inaccurate to me, just like a lot of stuff you’ve said in this thread.
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
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| Posted: 02/15/19 8:37 am ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| A sidelight to the current CBA is the advantage in being an undrafted free agent (assuming the ability is there). All drafted players must sign a 4 year contract; thus, for example, Cambage, currently entering her 4th season (Stewart in same situation) can only be paid something like $60k, while Rebecca Allen, who was undrafted, could theoretically have been paid the $110+ max in her second season, assuming her initial free agent contract was for just one year. |
This sounds highly inaccurate to me, just like a lot of stuff you’ve said in this thread. |
I should have been more precise. Undrafted players, like Rebecca Allen, have locked in salaries for their first two years. In the third year (unlike draftees like Stewart And Cambage), they can be paid up to the max. See pages 276-280 of the CBA. I wanted to point out the advantage (potentially upwards of $100k) in being undrafted; of course, as noted, the ability must be there.
Don't mind criticism, but "sounds highly inaccurate' without reasons sounds mindless to me..
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ClayK
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| Posted: 02/15/19 10:43 am ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| Disregarding right or wrong, if the board had a sportsmanship award, ClayK would win it every year. |
Thanks for that comment ... it caught me by surprise, that's for sure. Much appreciated ...
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Richyyy
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| Posted: 02/15/19 11:10 am ::: |
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| canadaball wrote: |
| A sidelight to the current CBA is the advantage in being an undrafted free agent (assuming the ability is there). All drafted players must sign a 4 year contract; thus, for example, Cambage, currently entering her 4th season (Stewart in same situation) can only be paid something like $60k, while Rebecca Allen, who was undrafted, could theoretically have been paid the $110+ max in her second season, assuming her initial free agent contract was for just one year. |
Contracts continue to run even when the player doesn't show up, so that's wrong on Cambage. She was out of contract and 'reserved' once the rookie scale deal ran out four years after she signed it, and could therefore be paid up to the max when she finally came back last year (and obviously was, in order to get her to come). |
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canadaball
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| Posted: 02/15/19 11:49 am ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| A sidelight to the current CBA is the advantage in being an undrafted free agent (assuming the ability is there). All drafted players must sign a 4 year contract; thus, for example, Cambage, currently entering her 4th season (Stewart in same situation) can only be paid something like $60k, while Rebecca Allen, who was undrafted, could theoretically have been paid the $110+ max in her second season, assuming her initial free agent contract was for just one year. |
Contracts continue to run even when the player doesn't show up, so that's wrong on Cambage. She was out of contract and 'reserved' once the rookie scale deal ran out four years after she signed it, and could therefore be paid up to the max when she finally came back last year (and obviously was, in order to get her to come). |
I randomly chose Cambage and Stewart as 4th year drafted players in contrast to an undrafted player like Lindsay Allen. Was not aware that sitting out a year advances the rookie salary scale as you describe; in other words, should Stewart sit out this, her 4th, season, passing up the $63k salary; next year she could get the $117+ max. Cannot find this provision in the CBA; could you explain further?
Last edited by canadaball on 02/15/19 12:04 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Richyyy
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| Posted: 02/15/19 11:59 am ::: |
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| canadaball wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| A sidelight to the current CBA is the advantage in being an undrafted free agent (assuming the ability is there). All drafted players must sign a 4 year contract; thus, for example, Cambage, currently entering her 4th season (Stewart in same situation) can only be paid something like $60k, while Rebecca Allen, who was undrafted, could theoretically have been paid the $110+ max in her second season, assuming her initial free agent contract was for just one year. |
Contracts continue to run even when the player doesn't show up, so that's wrong on Cambage. She was out of contract and 'reserved' once the rookie scale deal ran out four years after she signed it, and could therefore be paid up to the max when she finally came back last year (and obviously was, in order to get her to come). |
I randomly chose Cambage and Stewart as 4th year drafted players in contrast to an undrafted player like Lindsay Allen. Was not aware that sitting out a year advances the rookie salary scale as you describe; in other words, should Stewart sit out this, her 4th, season, passing up the $63k salary; next year she could get the $117+ max. Cannot find this provision in the CBA; could you explain further? |
Not sure how I explain it much more, really. Contracts keep going, even if you're not there (and not getting paid). So the player doesn't gain 'years of WNBA experience' - which is key in whether you can be reserved, restricted or unrestricted when out of contract - but the contract can still expire. And yes, Stewart could still sign for the max next year, even if she skipped this season entirely. |
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Shades
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| Posted: 02/15/19 12:04 pm ::: |
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| canadaball wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| A sidelight to the current CBA is the advantage in being an undrafted free agent (assuming the ability is there). All drafted players must sign a 4 year contract; thus, for example, Cambage, currently entering her 4th season (Stewart in same situation) can only be paid something like $60k, while Rebecca Allen, who was undrafted, could theoretically have been paid the $110+ max in her second season, assuming her initial free agent contract was for just one year. |
Contracts continue to run even when the player doesn't show up, so that's wrong on Cambage. She was out of contract and 'reserved' once the rookie scale deal ran out four years after she signed it, and could therefore be paid up to the max when she finally came back last year (and obviously was, in order to get her to come). |
I randomly chose Cambage and Stewart as 4th year drafted players in contrast to an undrafted player like Lindsay Allen. Was not aware that sitting out a year advances the rookie salary scale as you describe; in other words, should Stewart sit out this, her 4th, season, passing up the $63k salary; next year she could get the $117+ max. Cannot find this provision in the CBA; could you explain further? |
You seem to have a lot of doubt and questions about the topic that you were so sure you were accurate about to the point insulting people.
| canadaball wrote: |
| mindless |
Thanks, good description for your theory on how much an undrafted second year player can make.
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canadaball
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| Posted: 02/15/19 12:11 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| A sidelight to the current CBA is the advantage in being an undrafted free agent (assuming the ability is there). All drafted players must sign a 4 year contract; thus, for example, Cambage, currently entering her 4th season (Stewart in same situation) can only be paid something like $60k, while Rebecca Allen, who was undrafted, could theoretically have been paid the $110+ max in her second season, assuming her initial free agent contract was for just one year. |
Contracts continue to run even when the player doesn't show up, so that's wrong on Cambage. She was out of contract and 'reserved' once the rookie scale deal ran out four years after she signed it, and could therefore be paid up to the max when she finally came back last year (and obviously was, in order to get her to come). |
I randomly chose Cambage and Stewart as 4th year drafted players in contrast to an undrafted player like Lindsay Allen. Was not aware that sitting out a year advances the rookie salary scale as you describe; in other words, should Stewart sit out this, her 4th, season, passing up the $63k salary; next year she could get the $117+ max. Cannot find this provision in the CBA; could you explain further? |
You seem to have a lot of doubt and questions about the topic that you were so sure you were accurate about to the point insulting people.
| canadaball wrote: |
| mindless |
Thanks, good description for your theory on how much an undrafted second year player can make. |
I realize this is CBA minutia, but it does affect a few players. Sami Whitcomb (another undrafted player), signed for $50k in her second WNBA season (using Megdal's website). This is $10k more than a drafted 2nd or 3rd rounder would get. Given Sami did not run out the clock (like Cam), how was this possible? Again, can find nothing in CBA. Delving further; Rebecca Allen, in her 4th season made $56k which is $6-10k more than available to a 4th year drafted player outside the top 8.
My main point is that if a player has WNBA talent (admittedly a very high hurdle), it is financially better to be undrafted.
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toad455
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| Posted: 02/15/19 1:28 pm ::: |
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| A first round pick would be making more than Allen or Whitcomb in their third and fourth years. A lottery pick would be significantly more than Allen or Whitcomb. And how would a player opt to become undrafted? The last player I remember removing herself from the draft was Allyssa DeHaan in 2010.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 02/15/19 1:50 pm ::: |
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I think those undrafted rookie provisions are there to somewhat protect foreign players who might have an interest in the WNBA. Making a veteran star take a below-market, four-year rookie contract at age 26 likely guarantees that she'll never come over -- not that suffering through two years is any great incentive either. The clause also helps undrafted American players, but that's probably a side effect. Note that these players enter reserved status after two-years. They can't negotiate with any other team. So yes, they can ask for max salary, but they can only speak with their current team. A star can probably take advantage. A decent but not great player still doesn't have much leverage.
As to the contract continuation, I think it has to do with the fact that players under contract have to report or be suspended. Suspension is technically punishment. For that to be allowed, it makes sense that the contract remains active. However, if the player gives the team sufficient notice, she can be suspended for the season and not get fined. That also allows the team to reuse her salary cap space. Beyond that, you see in the CBA a clear distinction made between service time and contract years. In order to receive service time, a player has to be on the active roster. The fact that this has to be defined suggests that active years are something separate from contract years and that the two are not inextricably tied together.
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Nixtreefan
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canadaball
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| Posted: 02/15/19 2:18 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
I think those undrafted rookie provisions are there to somewhat protect foreign players who might have an interest in the WNBA. Making a veteran star take a below-market, four-year rookie contract at age 26 likely guarantees that she'll never come over -- not that suffering through two years is any great incentive either. The clause also helps undrafted American players, but that's probably a side effect. Note that these players enter reserved status after two-years. They can't negotiate with any other team. So yes, they can ask for max salary, but they can only speak with their current team. A star can probably take advantage. A decent but not great player still doesn't have much leverage.
As to the contract continuation, I think it has to do with the fact that players under contract have to report or be suspended. Suspension is technically punishment. For that to be allowed, it makes sense that the contract remains active. However, if the player gives the team sufficient notice, she can be suspended for the season and not get fined. That also allows the team to reuse her salary cap space. Beyond that, you see in the CBA a clear distinction made between service time and contract years. In order to receive service time, a player has to be on the active roster. The fact that this has to be defined suggests that active years are something separate from contract years and that the two are not inextricably tied together. |
Seems like sound logic, but it does make the WNBA rather unique in the sports world. Unlike the W, sports like baseball, football, and men's basketball offer no benefits to a player sitting out a year, and do not allow a player to advance a salary scaled year when not playing.
Lindsey Allen entered the league in 2015, and was paid $56,100 in her 4th year (I do not know her 3rd year salary). The first 4 picks from that year were paid $63,297 last year; picks 5-8 got $58,569 while the rest of the first rounders received $52,268. 2nd rounders-$50,330, and 3rd rounders $47631.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 02/15/19 5:26 pm ::: |
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| canadaball wrote: |
Seems like sound logic, but it does make the WNBA rather unique in the sports world. Unlike the W, sports like baseball, football, and men's basketball offer no benefits to a player sitting out a year, and do not allow a player to advance a salary scaled year when not playing.
Lindsey Allen entered the league in 2015, and was paid $56,100 in her 4th year (I do not know her 3rd year salary). The first 4 picks from that year were paid $63,297 last year; picks 5-8 got $58,569 while the rest of the first rounders received $52,268. 2nd rounders-$50,330, and 3rd rounders $47631. |
But in what men's sports do young players with multiyear contracts intentionally sit out and come back later? Can you give me an example? Also, no one is claiming to know if in 2013 Cambage was paid the 3rd-year scale after missing 2012. The subject here is only contract years. By 2018, Cambage's rookie contract would have been 8 seasons old. In what business does the 3rd year of a 4-year contract get to be applied in year 8? Contracts usually require that goods and services be delivered within a specified period. Either the contract is violated and terminated or it expires. Contracts don't just go into hiatus and restart when people are in the mood. In this case, Cambage's rookie contract had expired. She was no longer subject to scale restrictions and could negotiate a salary up to max.
As far as the undrafted rookies go, it's not like people have a choice to opt out of the draft. When you're eligible, teams can draft you whether you want them to or not. You can try to discourage them -- say you hate their city, claim you're not pursuing pro ball or declare that you're sitting out due to an injury. I seem to recall that was the case with Alyssa DeHaan -- she had back surgery or something like that. Then she married some guy from her day job and never got around to giving pro basketball a try. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. There is no advantage because players who go undrafted can't plan it -- unless they want to intentionally suck and make teams disinterested.
What's more tangible and relevant is the idea of foreign players coming over even when they know they aren't ready. It used to be that teams thought they could draft foreign players and stash them overseas until they were good enough. Now, players are signing that required contract offer (teams have to offer a contract to draft picks) to start the clock on their rookie contract whether they come over or not. Yes, even if they never show up in camp, they have to be suspended. And if the player does come over and doesn't make the team -- so what? She becomes an unrestricted free agent and when the player is ready, she gets to pick the team she wants to play for.
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pilight
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| Posted: 02/15/19 5:41 pm ::: |
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| canadaball wrote: |
| Seems like sound logic, but it does make the WNBA rather unique in the sports world. Unlike the W, sports like baseball, football, and men's basketball offer no benefits to a player sitting out a year, and do not allow a player to advance a salary scaled year when not playing. |
They also pay enough that sitting out is very rare. If the minimum rookie salary in the W was in the mid six figures, like those leagues, sitting out would be rare here too.
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CamrnCrz1974
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| Posted: 02/15/19 6:36 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| Disregarding right or wrong, if the board had a sportsmanship award, ClayK would win it every year. |
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canadaball
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| Posted: 02/15/19 7:06 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
Seems like sound logic, but it does make the WNBA rather unique in the sports world. Unlike the W, sports like baseball, football, and men's basketball offer no benefits to a player sitting out a year, and do not allow a player to advance a salary scaled year when not playing.
Lindsey Allen entered the league in 2015, and was paid $56,100 in her 4th year (I do not know her 3rd year salary). The first 4 picks from that year were paid $63,297 last year; picks 5-8 got $58,569 while the rest of the first rounders received $52,268. 2nd rounders-$50,330, and 3rd rounders $47631. |
But in what men's sports do young players with multiyear contracts intentionally sit out and come back later? Can you give me an example? Also, no one is claiming to know if in 2013 Cambage was paid the 3rd-year scale after missing 2012. The subject here is only contract years. By 2018, Cambage's rookie contract would have been 8 seasons old. In what business does the 3rd year of a 4-year contract get to be applied in year 8? Contracts usually require that goods and services be delivered within a specified period. Either the contract is violated and terminated or it expires. Contracts don't just go into hiatus and restart when people are in the mood. In this case, Cambage's rookie contract had expired. She was no longer subject to scale restrictions and could negotiate a salary up to max.
As far as the undrafted rookies go, it's not like people have a choice to opt out of the draft. When you're eligible, teams can draft you whether you want them to or not. You can try to discourage them -- say you hate their city, claim you're not pursuing pro ball or declare that you're sitting out due to an injury. I seem to recall that was the case with Alyssa DeHaan -- she had back surgery or something like that. Then she married some guy from her day job and never got around to giving pro basketball a try. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. There is no advantage because players who go undrafted can't plan it -- unless they want to intentionally suck and make teams disinterested.
What's more tangible and relevant is the idea of foreign players coming over even when they know they aren't ready. It used to be that teams thought they could draft foreign players and stash them overseas until they were good enough. Now, players are signing that required contract offer (teams have to offer a contract to draft picks) to start the clock on their rookie contract whether they come over or not. Yes, even if they never show up in camp, they have to be suspended. And if the player does come over and doesn't make the team -- so what? She becomes an unrestricted free agent and when the player is ready, she gets to pick the team she wants to play for. |
The concept of separate paths for contract years and service years does not exist in other sports. In the other sports, the value is in getting service done in order to make the huge $. Consider LA Dodger pitcher Clayton Kershaw. In his first 3 years, his salary (limited by contract just like the W) went from $404k to $500k. Now I realize these #'s dwarf what WNBA first year players make, but the real money started for him in the later years, when salary went to $7 million to eventually $32 million. The other sports do not even consider a player passing up an early year b/c the premium is on getting those service years done.
Go beyond the world of sports. Consider careers like teachers or nurses, where contracts (particular in the early years)quite often feature yearly raises. In jobs like this, I am not aware of provisions that let a worker sit out a year, and jump to the next salary level....Maybe only in the WNBA.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 02/15/19 8:12 pm ::: |
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| canadaball wrote: |
The concept of separate paths for contract years and service years does not exist in other sports. In the other sports, the value is in getting service done in order to make the huge $. Consider LA Dodger pitcher Clayton Kershaw. In his first 3 years, his salary (limited by contract just like the W) went from $404k to $500k. Now I realize these #'s dwarf what WNBA first year players make, but the real money started for him in the later years, when salary went to $7 million to eventually $32 million. The other sports do not even consider a player passing up an early year b/c the premium is on getting those service years done.
Go beyond the world of sports. Consider careers like teachers or nurses, where contracts (particular in the early years)quite often feature yearly raises. In jobs like this, I am not aware of provisions that let a worker sit out a year, and jump to the next salary level....Maybe only in the WNBA. |
So what? Why does it matter?
None of these examples you're giving are comparable to women's basketball. None of these people have anywhere else to go that's better. What's Clayton Kershaw going to do -- pitch in Japan for a couple of years and then come back? People have done that, but only because they were unwanted. If you're a nurse or a teacher, are you going to sit out a year because you have better opportunities elsewhere? You're fixated on this idea that somehow Cambage got rewarded for sitting out while ignoring the bigger picture -- why she left. Liz left for greener pastures, and then she stayed away because coming back wasn't worth her time. If you're the WNBA, your goal is to lure stars like that back. Does it make sense to insist that Liz take a 3rd-year rookie salary in her 8th season? Do you think if Clayton Kershaw had gone somewhere else more lucrative that he'd come back to the Major Leagues for $500,000? You're thinking like a bureaucrat. You're obsessing over the "rules" rather than looking at reality. The truth is that Liz is still accepting a WNBA salary way below her market value.
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canadaball
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| Posted: 02/15/19 9:06 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
The concept of separate paths for contract years and service years does not exist in other sports. In the other sports, the value is in getting service done in order to make the huge $. Consider LA Dodger pitcher Clayton Kershaw. In his first 3 years, his salary (limited by contract just like the W) went from $404k to $500k. Now I realize these #'s dwarf what WNBA first year players make, but the real money started for him in the later years, when salary went to $7 million to eventually $32 million. The other sports do not even consider a player passing up an early year b/c the premium is on getting those service years done.
Go beyond the world of sports. Consider careers like teachers or nurses, where contracts (particular in the early years)quite often feature yearly raises. In jobs like this, I am not aware of provisions that let a worker sit out a year, and jump to the next salary level....Maybe only in the WNBA. |
So what? Why does it matter?
None of these examples you're giving are comparable to women's basketball. None of these people have anywhere else to go that's better. What's Clayton Kershaw going to do -- pitch in Japan for a couple of years and then come back? People have done that, but only because they were unwanted. If you're a nurse or a teacher, are you going to sit out a year because you have better opportunities elsewhere? You're fixated on this idea that somehow Cambage got rewarded for sitting out while ignoring the bigger picture -- why she left. Liz left for greener pastures, and then she stayed away because coming back wasn't worth her time. If you're the WNBA, your goal is to lure stars like that back. Does it make sense to insist that Liz take a 3rd-year rookie salary in her 8th season? Do you think if Clayton Kershaw had gone somewhere else more lucrative that he'd come back to the Major Leagues for $500,000? You're thinking like a bureaucrat. You're obsessing over the "rules" rather than looking at reality. The truth is that Liz is still accepting a WNBA salary way below her market value. |
So Cambage gets the salary boost (in this case about $50k) though sitting out a year (just like Stew would if she passed up this season). Let's just say this is a bit unusual plus I can find nowhere in the CBA that actually says a player sitting out one contract year moves directly to the next upgrade on return.
In examining the CBA, the rookie 4 year salary scale is shown for each class,. If the contract years flowed by, even with a player no show , why would the second year not state a specific year instead of the generic "2nd Year Base salary"?
The system you describe actually would encourage a young star foreign player like Cambage to establish her world wide value in the rookie W year, then avoid her 2nd, 3rd or 4th year in the league, with the accompanying wear and tear at pay $55-60K, then return in year 5 to earn the max $115k+.......Gee on further thought (played 2011 and 2013; returned last year) isn't that sort of what happened?
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