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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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 Posted: 03/15/19 10:41 am ::: |
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Teaira McCowan is awarded the Gilliam Trophy. A lot of players struggle with fashion, but McCowan is stylin’ here!
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017
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| Posted: 03/15/19 10:42 am ::: |
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| TotalCardinalMove wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| TotalCardinalMove wrote: |
| Aladyyn wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| I would also add that, before her injury, Jefferson was a far superior option than Plum. |
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In 2016, her only healthy year, Jefferson scored more, was a much better defender, and her speed dominated on occasion. |
Plum is in a different universe as a shooter, on a team that severely lacks them. |
She also has a shaky handle, and can’t defend a chair. But I guess that’s not important. |
A shaky handle? Her TO rate was lower than Jefferson. Her TO rate was lower than Jasmine Thomas, or Chelsea Gray, or Sue Bird, or any other PG in the league. |
And? Apply ball pressure on her and it’s a turnover. She also wasn’t the sole ball distributer, like many of those point guards you listed are. Plum only had 15 more assists than McBride did last season, so clearly she wasn’t the primary play maker either. I’d hope your turnovers are low if you’re sharing distributing duties. Quit cherry picking. |
Jasmine Thomas and Chelsea Gray are far from being the only distributors on their teams...
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TotalCardinalMove
Joined: 13 Oct 2013
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| Posted: 03/15/19 10:48 am ::: |
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| Aladyyn wrote: |
| TotalCardinalMove wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| TotalCardinalMove wrote: |
| Aladyyn wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| I would also add that, before her injury, Jefferson was a far superior option than Plum. |
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In 2016, her only healthy year, Jefferson scored more, was a much better defender, and her speed dominated on occasion. |
Plum is in a different universe as a shooter, on a team that severely lacks them. |
She also has a shaky handle, and can’t defend a chair. But I guess that’s not important. |
A shaky handle? Her TO rate was lower than Jefferson. Her TO rate was lower than Jasmine Thomas, or Chelsea Gray, or Sue Bird, or any other PG in the league. |
And? Apply ball pressure on her and it’s a turnover. She also wasn’t the sole ball distributer, like many of those point guards you listed are. Plum only had 15 more assists than McBride did last season, so clearly she wasn’t the primary play maker either. I’d hope your turnovers are low if you’re sharing distributing duties. Quit cherry picking. |
Jasmine Thomas and Chelsea Gray are far from being the only distributors on their teams... |
Was really referring to Sue Bird, and those “other WNBA points guards” plight was referring to like Sloot, Boyd, Diggins-Smith etc.
Also, Gray and Thomas are focal points of their offensive systems. Plum is far from being that as well. Nobody was gameplanning to stop Kelsey Plum from doing anything last season.
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Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012
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| Posted: 03/15/19 11:19 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
I'm not a huge Plum fan, but I will say this: She has gotten better, and worked on her game.
Defense, especially, is something that can develop over time as players understand the game and the league better. Of course, there have to be some physical attributes, but Plum is a decent athlete (is that OK to say, nixtree? Don't want to offend) and a very smart player (could be a nixtree issue here as well), so I would expect defensive improvement.
As always, one of the most difficult things about projecting talent is guessing when a player will stop improving. A player like Allie Quigley has gotten better every year, it seems; other players peak as college sophomores, and as far as I know, there's no metric that can help determine when improvement for a particular player is no longer likely.
It appears to me, for no really good reason, that Plum will get marginally better each year and have a solid career as a mid-level point guard in the WNBA, and on the right team, could start for a team that goes deep into the playoffs. |
Hey you can be facetious all you want, I wasn't the one who lumped a bunch of stereotypes together. But hey, at least you are thinking about it. First steps, just like alcoholics anonymous.
Oh BTWs you may want to expand on the word smart as there is poster who cannot handle it. For me, its Ok I get what you are saying on this one and actually agree. The question about Plum and Jefferson is that one has been injured so you do not know what her real ceiling is and she seems to have had a healthy productive overseas season. The whole situation is intriguing, which pieces will stay and which will be moved.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/15/19 11:57 am ::: |
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| Nixtreefan wrote: |
| The question about Plum and Jefferson is that one has been injured so you do not know what her real ceiling is and she seems to have had a healthy productive overseas season. The whole situation is intriguing, which pieces will stay and which will be moved. |
Of course the other one has had a better overseas season for a better team in the same league...
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Last edited by pilight on 03/15/19 5:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Aladyyn
Joined: 23 Jul 2017
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| Posted: 03/15/19 12:39 pm ::: |
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| TotalCardinalMove wrote: |
| Aladyyn wrote: |
| TotalCardinalMove wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| TotalCardinalMove wrote: |
| Aladyyn wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| I would also add that, before her injury, Jefferson was a far superior option than Plum. |
|
In 2016, her only healthy year, Jefferson scored more, was a much better defender, and her speed dominated on occasion. |
Plum is in a different universe as a shooter, on a team that severely lacks them. |
She also has a shaky handle, and can’t defend a chair. But I guess that’s not important. |
A shaky handle? Her TO rate was lower than Jefferson. Her TO rate was lower than Jasmine Thomas, or Chelsea Gray, or Sue Bird, or any other PG in the league. |
And? Apply ball pressure on her and it’s a turnover. She also wasn’t the sole ball distributer, like many of those point guards you listed are. Plum only had 15 more assists than McBride did last season, so clearly she wasn’t the primary play maker either. I’d hope your turnovers are low if you’re sharing distributing duties. Quit cherry picking. |
Jasmine Thomas and Chelsea Gray are far from being the only distributors on their teams... |
Was really referring to Sue Bird, and those “other WNBA points guards” plight was referring to like Sloot, Boyd, Diggins-Smith etc.
Also, Gray and Thomas are focal points of their offensive systems. Plum is far from being that as well. Nobody was gameplanning to stop Kelsey Plum from doing anything last season. |
You seriously think teams didn't gameplan against one of the 2 capable 3pt shooters on the Aces?
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pilight
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
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| Posted: 03/16/19 9:38 am ::: |
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On the above discussion about PGs and defense, it's been proven time and time again that teams can play great defense with players who don't have great individual defensive reputations. Lindsay Whalen in particularly made up for individual physical shortcomings with excellent team concept defense in my opinion. Minnesota was often in the top 2 in defense with her being the team's starting PG so obviously she didn't hurt them there.
Plum is a solid player. Her A/TO was excellent last year. You can tell by how quickly she initiates their offense that she has good knowledge of the system, and a Laimbeer offense is not very penetration-friendly to guards. Even with that, Plum had a good sophomore season and was trending up. She is heading in the right direction.
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pilight
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
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| Posted: 03/16/19 11:21 am ::: |
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| NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote: |
On the above discussion about PGs and defense, it's been proven time and time again that teams can play great defense with players who don't have great individual defensive reputations. Lindsay Whalen in particularly made up for individual physical shortcomings with excellent team concept defense in my opinion. Minnesota was often in the top 2 in defense with her being the team's starting PG so obviously she didn't hurt them there.
Plum is a solid player. Her A/TO was excellent last year. You can tell by how quickly she initiates their offense that she has good knowledge of the system, and a Laimbeer offense is not very penetration-friendly to guards. Even with that, Plum had a good sophomore season and was trending up. She is heading in the right direction. |
Context is so important in discussing stats. Usually teams do well in defensive statistics b/c they do not push pace. The great Lynx teams did not play a fast paced game. Their stars are not famous b/c they run the court well. Whalen, Maya, and Augustus are not going to the Hall of Fame b/c of defense. IMO the Minnesota champs just played adequate defense. They succeeded b/c of great offense.
My purpose in bringing up Plum was not to knock her, but discuss Lambeer's proven preference for a different type guard. I agree with assessments she has improved from year one, but Kelsey still ranks near the bottom of starting guards in the league. Las Vegas (no high powered offense there) featured Wilson and, on the perimeter, McBride. Averaging less than 10 points/game, with 1.5 successful 3 pointers, Plum just did has not draw opponent's strongest defenders. On the same team.....remember this was a sub .500 lottery team.... playing same position, Lindsay Allen (no other team in league wanted her) had an even better assist to t/o ratio; another example of the importance of context with stats.
Last edited by canadaball on 03/16/19 12:03 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012
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| Posted: 03/16/19 11:46 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Nixtreefan wrote: |
| The question about Plum and Jefferson is that one has been injured so you do not know what her real ceiling is and she seems to have had a healthy productive overseas season. The whole situation is intriguing, which pieces will stay and which will be moved. |
Of course the other one has had a better overseas season for a better team in the same league... |
Wasn't my point, but I get you don't like Jefferson LMAO. My point was that she has shown she seems to be healthy and that has nothing to do with Plum.
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Nixtreefan
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 03/16/19 12:06 pm ::: |
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| canadaball wrote: |
| Context is so important in discussing stats. Usually teams do well in defensive statistics b/c they do not push pace. The great Lynx teams did not play a fast paced game. Their stars are not famous b/c they run the court well. Whalen, Maya, and Augustus are not going to the Hall of Fame b/c of defense. IMO the Minnesota champs just played adequate defense. They succeeded b/c of great offense. |
I don't think you understand how modern advanced stats work. |
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Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
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| Posted: 03/16/19 12:51 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| Context is so important in discussing stats. Usually teams do well in defensive statistics b/c they do not push pace. The great Lynx teams did not play a fast paced game. Their stars are not famous b/c they run the court well. Whalen, Maya, and Augustus are not going to the Hall of Fame b/c of defense. IMO the Minnesota champs just played adequate defense. They succeeded b/c of great offense. |
I don't think you understand how modern advanced stats work. |
I was responding to the statistics discussed. Please tell me what is so modern about "2nd ranked team defense", using points allowed, and "assist to t/o ratio"?
In last year's epic Phx Sea playoff series, Jewel Loyd lit up Phx in game one, 23 points on 9/16 shooting (I know old fashioned stats). Coach Brondello decided to switch her main perimeter defender, Brian January, on Loyd. For the remaining 4 games, Loyd averaged 8ppg on 9/36 shooting. Old stats/new stats....context matters.
Go way back to Seattle's first championship. Ct coach, Mike Thibeau, decided to put his best defender, Katie Douglas, on Sue Bird. (When he played NY, he would always use her on Becky Hammon). This left Whalen to the tender mercies of Betty Lennox, who proceeded to have a career moment as playoff MVP, with great statistics.....Nothing wrong with using old/new stats, but, remember, context matters.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 03/16/19 1:31 pm ::: |
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| canadaball wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| Context is so important in discussing stats. Usually teams do well in defensive statistics b/c they do not push pace. The great Lynx teams did not play a fast paced game. Their stars are not famous b/c they run the court well. Whalen, Maya, and Augustus are not going to the Hall of Fame b/c of defense. IMO the Minnesota champs just played adequate defense. They succeeded b/c of great offense. |
I don't think you understand how modern advanced stats work. |
I was responding to the statistics discussed. Please tell me what is so modern about "2nd ranked team defense", using points allowed, and "assist to t/o ratio"? |
NYL_WNBA_FAN said that Minnesota were "often in the top 2 in defense", he never mentioned anything about points allowed. Defensive Rating is a pretty easy stat to find these days, and it's calculated on a per possession basis (thereby adjusting for pace). Over Whalen's time in Minnesota the Lynx were 8th, 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 1st, 1st and 4th. |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/16/19 2:21 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| Context is so important in discussing stats. Usually teams do well in defensive statistics b/c they do not push pace. The great Lynx teams did not play a fast paced game. Their stars are not famous b/c they run the court well. Whalen, Maya, and Augustus are not going to the Hall of Fame b/c of defense. IMO the Minnesota champs just played adequate defense. They succeeded b/c of great offense. |
I don't think you understand how modern advanced stats work. |
I was responding to the statistics discussed. Please tell me what is so modern about "2nd ranked team defense", using points allowed, and "assist to t/o ratio"? |
NYL_WNBA_FAN said that Minnesota were "often in the top 2 in defense", he never mentioned anything about points allowed. Defensive Rating is a pretty easy stat to find these days, and it's calculated on a per possession basis (thereby adjusting for pace). Over Whalen's time in Minnesota the Lynx were 8th, 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 1st, 1st and 4th. |
Other than last season, they weren't particularly slow paced either. Their pace factor was right in the middle of the pack: 6th, 6th, 6th, 6th, 8th, 7th, 6th, 10th.
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
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| Posted: 03/16/19 2:41 pm ::: |
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| Richyyy wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| Richyyy wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| Context is so important in discussing stats. Usually teams do well in defensive statistics b/c they do not push pace. The great Lynx teams did not play a fast paced game. Their stars are not famous b/c they run the court well. Whalen, Maya, and Augustus are not going to the Hall of Fame b/c of defense. IMO the Minnesota champs just played adequate defense. They succeeded b/c of great offense. |
I don't think you understand how modern advanced stats work. |
I was responding to the statistics discussed. Please tell me what is so modern about "2nd ranked team defense", using points allowed, and "assist to t/o ratio"? |
NYL_WNBA_FAN said that Minnesota were "often in the top 2 in defense", he never mentioned anything about points allowed. Defensive Rating is a pretty easy stat to find these days, and it's calculated on a per possession basis (thereby adjusting for pace). Over Whalen's time in Minnesota the Lynx were 8th, 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 1st, 1st and 4th. |
You are really parsing words, but, by your own "modern stats", the Lynx were top 2 defense in four out of nine years....in my dictionary that hardly qualifies as "often".
This is about the mindless use of stats without observation. i have watched the Lynx plenty over their great run, and, in general, they did not push the ball, and were not a running team. Another flaw in just using stats is the failure to account for game context (there is that word again). As a dominant team over the last several years, the Lynx were involved in many easy wins. Stats do not account for "garbage time", or just the liberal use of second stringers. A good analogy is football, where the best teams usually give up a lot of passing yards b/c they are frequently way ahead, forcing opponents to eschew the run. The big yards allowed passing does not mean a poor pass defense.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/16/19 2:55 pm ::: |
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| canadaball wrote: |
| This is about the mindless use of stats without observation |
You have no problem using that when they say what you want them to, like so..
| canadaball wrote: |
| Jefferson (2016) 13.9 ppg; 42% shooting; 4.2 assists/1.7 to's; 1.6 steals (she ranked 3rd in league just behind Beard and catch, but ahead of Angel) |
When the stats don't conform to your preconceptions, it's because the stats are "mindless" or "lack context". That's a very dishonest form of debate.
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pilight
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| Posted: 03/16/19 2:58 pm ::: |
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| Nixtreefan wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Nixtreefan wrote: |
| The question about Plum and Jefferson is that one has been injured so you do not know what her real ceiling is and she seems to have had a healthy productive overseas season. The whole situation is intriguing, which pieces will stay and which will be moved. |
Of course the other one has had a better overseas season for a better team in the same league... |
Wasn't my point, but I get you don't like Jefferson LMAO. My point was that she has shown she seems to be healthy and that has nothing to do with Plum. |
When you start with "The question about Plum and Jefferson", people are going to assume you're making a point about both.
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Nixtreefan
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pilight
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
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| Posted: 03/16/19 3:53 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| This is about the mindless use of stats without observation |
You have no problem using that when they say what you want them to, like so..
| canadaball wrote: |
| Jefferson (2016) 13.9 ppg; 42% shooting; 4.2 assists/1.7 to's; 1.6 steals (she ranked 3rd in league just behind Beard and catch, but ahead of Angel) |
When the stats don't conform to your preconceptions, it's because the stats are "mindless" or "lack context". That's a very dishonest form of debate. |
Of course stats have value, but thought also counts. In the above thread, I have given specific reasons why some stats may be flawed. The statistical comparison of Plum to Jefferson (2016), and to Lindsay Allen (2018) has value b/c one has the players on pretty much the same team in the same role. I cannot make much of Plum's A/T ratio, when teammate Allen was better. IMO neither is a special floor general.
3 point shooting stats are another example where actually watching the players is important. Last season, Taurasi was a 38% 3 point shooter, while Stricklin shot 43%. DT shoots her 3's like 10 footers; off the dribble; falling back; catch and shoot etc., and, of course draws the best defenders, while Strick must be wide open, and set her feet. I am unaware of any "modern" stats that account for this kind of stuff. Someone looking at the #'s would say Strick was the better shooter. I say think.
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Nixtreefan
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 03/17/19 10:42 am ::: |
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Honestly, I can see the four team draft day trade going as:
Las Vegas gets the #2 pick(McCowan) & a 2020 pick from someone (NY).
New York gets the #1 pick (Ionescu) & Jantel Lavender.
Dallas gets the #7 pick, Chelsea Gray & Isabelle Harrison.
Los Angeles gets Liz Cambage and Brittany Boyd.
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